How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?

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How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#1 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:44 pm

I thought about the best peaks in Spurs history and came to Duncan vs Kawhi debate. I'm interesred in how many Duncan seasons would you take over peak (either 2016, 2017 or 2019) Kawhi.

Honestly, I can see as much as 8, but I a few of them are not given. What's your opinion?
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#2 » by liamliam1234 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:38 pm

Clear answer for almost every poster should be between 2 and 8 (with respect to an all-time rookie season).

2006 is the weakest regular season of those eight, but it featured an incredible postseason. But I guess I would struggle to call it better than Kawhi’s 2017 or 2019 playoff runs, and Kawhi was much better in the 2017 regular season.

2001 was good, but nothing spectacular. I would also place this below peak Kawhi. Similar with 2004, although that regular season was one of the better ones.

So that leaves 1999, 2005, and 2007. I do not know, it is pretty narrow. Of the three, the 1999 regular season was somewhat worse on a per minute/possession basis, but it had the most impressive postseason run. 2005 had an excellent regular season (in context) and a postseason marred statistically both by injury and by going up against arguably the best front-court defence since the 1970s Bullets (and maybe since Russell). But he did what he needed to win. And 2007 did not really feature any astounding opposition, but he was as good as ever (and was robbed of a Finals MVP).

I do not know, I guess I would say two clearly and three on the same relative-ish level. Gun to my head I cannot even definitively say which was the best of those three years, so comparing them to Kawhi’s best is already difficult. I mean, this is tough, right, because we were kind-of robbed of seeing true peak Kawhi in the 2017 postseason. And because of that, he was not even able to play up to that absolute peak potential in 2019 (kind-of like 2005 Duncan).

You know what, I will lean into it, I do not think the Spurs win in 2005 with any iteration of Kawhi, and I doubt they are as dominant in 1999, so I will say yes to two emphatically and three more weakly (with 2007 receiving benefit of the doubt that Duncan could have elevated further if needed). If we only look at regular season, it is a bit more difficult, but I would still stick with the same numbers (replacing 1999 with 2004).
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#3 » by Narigo » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:03 pm

2001-2005, 2007
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#4 » by bledredwine » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:40 pm

I like Narigo’s answer. I’d pick somewhere around five seasons. My 00’s date memory sucks so I can’t specifically state the years, but it’d be similar.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#5 » by An Unbiased Fan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:12 am

I don't rate prime Kawhi that high, so 1999-2008
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#6 » by Colbinii » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:33 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I don't rate prime Kawhi that high, so 1999-2008


I'm not high on Prime Kawhi either. I know you know I'm not high on Kobe and I think Kobe was substantially better than Kawhi at peaks.

I would take 98-09 personally.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#7 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:42 am

idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#8 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:30 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#9 » by homecourtloss » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.


Ok, so how many of Duncan’s seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#10 » by JordansBulls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:37 am

2003 for sure. After that I can't see any apart from 2005.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#11 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:20 am

homecourtloss wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.


Ok, so how many of Duncan’s seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?


2002 or 2003 is something you could argue but I don't think Duncan was ever a better offensive player than 2017 or 2019 Kawhi. Overall two way play, the argument gets closer but I think Kawhi is a more versitale defender and there's something to be said about that.

Duncan has better defense, Kawhi has better offense.

I would value the unstoppable 1 on 1 scorer with lockdown man defense and better ability to close games (Kawhi). I am higher on Kawhi than some though.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:14 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.


Duncan "got out performed" offensively in 2005 because he was by far the main focus for defenses. He was doubled and tripled which was the key for Spurs offense back then.

By your logic, Duncan outplayed Manu in every series in 2007. In the finals, he had only one game worse than Manu and he had two good and two weak offensive performances against good defensive team that was outmatched.

If this is the reason why you call Duncan's offense questinable, then it's a weak argument. What is queationable in his offensive performances in 1999, 2001 or 2006?

As I said, 2017 Kawhi is great but he got injured in playoffs. 2019 Kawhi is roughly on 2006 Duncan's level - weak RS and outstanding playoffs run (but not GOAT level). I'd take 1999, 2001-05 and 2007 Duncan over 2019 Kawhi. That's 7 seasons with 2006 close to that.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#13 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:53 am

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.


Duncan "got out performed" offensively in 2005 because he was by far the main focus for defenses. He was doubled and tripled which was the key for Spurs offense back then.

By your logic, Duncan outplayed Manu in every series in 2007. In the finals, he had only one game worse than Manu and he had two good and two weak offensive performances against good defensive team that was outmatched.

If this is the reason why you call Duncan's offense questinable, then it's a weak argument. What is queationable in his offensive performances in 1999, 2001 or 2006?

As I said, 2017 Kawhi is great but he got injured in playoffs. 2019 Kawhi is roughly on 2006 Duncan's level - weak RS and outstanding playoffs run (but not GOAT level). I'd take 1999, 2001-05 and 2007 Duncan over 2019 Kawhi. That's 7 seasons with 2006 close to that.


You are just making up excuses for Duncan. Superstars get double teamed and its no excuse for him to be having awful efficiency series compared to Manu. Kawhi was getting double teamed constantly after his game 1 vs 76ers and that never stopped him.

2005 playoffs: Manu has a 6.9 OBPM
Duncan has a 1.1 OBPM

2019 playoffs: Lowry has a 2.4 OBPM
Kawhi has a 6.2 OBPM

Tim Duncan is -5.8 OBPM compared to Manu and Kawhi is +3.8

That's a big gap in terms of offensive carrying! Lowry was never the same level player as a 2005 Manu.

Duncan wasn't his teams best or even 2nd best playmaker in the 2005-2007 years, so that argument over Kawhi gets thrown out the window. Manu in particular had a huge gap over Duncan as a playmaker that nobody on 2017 spurs roster was carrying the playmaking load like 2005 Manu was.

2005: 2nd round vs sonics: Duncan had 25PPG on 54% TS vs Sonics and Manu had 20PPG on 72% TS. Manu got to the freethrow line just 10 times less than Duncan despite taking 50 less shots. Manu was the better scorer and better playmaker this series.

1st round vs Nuggets: Manu averages 22.8 PPG on 65% TS vs Duncan's 22.0 PPG on 51% TS. Manu also gets to the freethrow line 20 more times than Duncan does this series.

Finals: Duncan 20.6 PPG on 47% TS to Manu's 18.7 PPG on 63% TS

How the hell is that offensively comparable to 2019 or 2017 Leonard? If Kawhi had Manu instead of Aldridge in 2016, it would be a ring for him as well. 2007 was a very weak western conference path for Duncan and he played awful in the finals.

2016 Kawhi = 1999,2004,2005,2006,2007 Duncan
2017\2019 Kawhi = 2002,2003 Duncan
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#14 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:18 am

and 2007 Duncan didn't outplay Manu in the WCF or the Finals. Go look at the TOV% in the WCF and also the TS in the finals. Now you're just exaggerating Duncan's offense.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#15 » by An Unbiased Fan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:33 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.

Raptors were a top seed before Kawhi or Gasol even got there. Without Kawhi, Toronto still had a great record. In the playoffs, the Raps lose to the 76ers and Warriors if those teams were healthy.

Again, don't really get the Kawhi hype
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#16 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:49 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:idk. I will say I am pretty high on Duncan in general even though it took me a while to get there but I think as of right this moment there is a bit of bias against Kawhi just from all the hot takes he's gotten since the finals. He is a guy who tends to just show up and defenses don't seem to able to stop him either despite him not being some uber athlete. Now when you pair that with him at one point being probably the best wing defender in the league that's a hell of a combo. Duncan is clearly above in a few years but after that its kind of a toss up imo. Kawhi showing he can win with or without the Pop 'system' is also a pretty big feather in his cap.


Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.

Raptors were a top seed before Kawhi or Gasol even got there. Without Kawhi, Toronto still had a great record. In the playoffs, the Raps lose to the 76ers and Warriors if those teams were healthy.

Again, don't really get the Kawhi hype


Raptors were a choking team that were embarrassed by the 1 man cavs in 2018. Kawhi's playoff path is what makes it most impressive.

As far as health, lowry had a hand injury during the 76ers series and he had surgery on it as soon as the season ended. That didn't stop Kawhi from averaging 41PPG in 3\4 wins and making a game 7 buzzer beater. Embiid was still the playoff leader in BPM going into the east finals and was perfectly fine, Butler has anchored elite offenses by himself in 2017-18, Reddick, Simmons, Harris a STACKED team to say the least.

Than he won 4 straight vs #1 defense and #1 in SRS Bucks who were the favorite to come out of the east and that 4 straight win streak started when he switched on the MVP Giannis

Finals. Ok he didn't beat KD\Curry Warriors but who did? He still matched Lebron's best accomplishment ever and beat Curry\Klay\Draymond with 1 of them missing time.

Kawhi was the clear cut best offensive player in every single playoff series but I wouldn't expect a Kobe fan to know much about that, considering Gasol carried him in the 2010 finals. Kobe was a sidekick for Shaq and than a 1A to 1B to Gasol, I don't know how thats impressive. Being the clear cut guy on your team and winning a title is whats impressive.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#17 » by euroleague » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:42 am

Some pretty ridiculous arguments here

I was a big Kawhi fan before 2018. But I never had him close to Duncan.

Duncan 02-07 was pretty obviously on another level. Despite Shaq getting the better of him in 02.

Kawhi in 16 wasn’t great offensively. In 17 he improved, but his defense got much worse. He had a good postseason, but like CP3, I can’t rate it over Duncan when he got injured.

In 19 he had a terrible RS, one series where he carried his team at an OK level (although he certainly didn’t playmake well and hurt ball movement).

I have 17 postseason at his peak, similar to 08 Kobe and worse than 06.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:19 am

I hope to see more opinions about this thread here. Don't be distracted by one fanboy and don't react to his posts, please...
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#19 » by Pg81 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:27 am

All of his prime seasons.
If you're asking me who the Mavs best player is, I'd say Luka. A guy like Delon Wright probably rivals his impact though at this stage in his career. KP may as well if he gets his **** together.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:00 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:and 2007 Duncan didn't outplay Manu in the WCF or the Finals. Go look at the TOV% in the WCF and also the TS in the finals. Now you're just exaggerating Duncan's offense.


So TS% is good when Manu beats Duncan in the finals, but in WCF is meaningless? But it's me who exaggerating, sure...

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