How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?

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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#21 » by AussieBuck » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:02 am

70sFan wrote:I hope to see more opinions about this thread here. Don't be distracted by one fanboy and don't react to his posts, please...

5-10 seems like a reasonable range. I'm mostly put off by Duncan's high impact period being so **** long that it's a hard exercise. :lol:
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#22 » by inDe_eD » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:45 pm

JordansBulls wrote:2003 for sure. After that I can't see any apart from 2005.


You know what JB? People mock you sometimes, I've done it myself, but I admire how consistently you stick to your criteria.

Serious question, if Kawhi wins with the clippers this year, back to back titles on teams that had never won a title before, where does that put him on your all-time list?
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#23 » by cecilthesheep » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:06 pm

I'll say definitely '99, '01 through '04, '06 and '07.

2005 loses out not because of the playoff performance, which I think was fine, but because he only played 66 RS games. That said, I'm really on the fence with '05 and might include it if you asked me tomorrow, it's just not quite as definite as the rest.

It would be pretty easy to talk me into one or more post-'07 years, because Duncan as he aged became one of the few players ever who essentially guaranteed a good defense by himself, but for now just because of the physical decline I'm sticking with the seven seasons above.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#24 » by bledredwine » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:26 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.


Duncan "got out performed" offensively in 2005 because he was by far the main focus for defenses. He was doubled and tripled which was the key for Spurs offense back then.

By your logic, Duncan outplayed Manu in every series in 2007. In the finals, he had only one game worse than Manu and he had two good and two weak offensive performances against good defensive team that was outmatched.

If this is the reason why you call Duncan's offense questinable, then it's a weak argument. What is queationable in his offensive performances in 1999, 2001 or 2006?

As I said, 2017 Kawhi is great but he got injured in playoffs. 2019 Kawhi is roughly on 2006 Duncan's level - weak RS and outstanding playoffs run (but not GOAT level). I'd take 1999, 2001-05 and 2007 Duncan over 2019 Kawhi. That's 7 seasons with 2006 close to that.


I get your point.

But still, you can't blame an ATG's offense on the defensive attention that they receive. That's like me blaming Rose's poor 2011 performance against the Heat on him being the focal point of the Heat's defense. While it's true, that's still no excuse for one of the greatest to be able to be one of the greatest, regardless of the defense that they face. It's why Harden doesn't get a pass for last year's or any year's playoffs.

At some point, excuses are just that- excuses. It's ok to have blemishes. That's one of Duncan's very few.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#25 » by No-more-rings » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:38 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:I'll say definitely '99, '01 through '04, '06 and '07.

2005 loses out not because of the playoff performance, which I think was fine, but because he only played 66 RS games. That said, I'm really on the fence with '05 and might include it if you asked me tomorrow, it's just not quite as definite as the rest.

In 04, he played 69 games, not much difference and they seem nearly identical statistically in 04 and 05. I think you’d have to nitpick hard to include 04 and not 05 or vice versa.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:39 pm

bledredwine wrote:
70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.


Duncan "got out performed" offensively in 2005 because he was by far the main focus for defenses. He was doubled and tripled which was the key for Spurs offense back then.

By your logic, Duncan outplayed Manu in every series in 2007. In the finals, he had only one game worse than Manu and he had two good and two weak offensive performances against good defensive team that was outmatched.

If this is the reason why you call Duncan's offense questinable, then it's a weak argument. What is queationable in his offensive performances in 1999, 2001 or 2006?

As I said, 2017 Kawhi is great but he got injured in playoffs. 2019 Kawhi is roughly on 2006 Duncan's level - weak RS and outstanding playoffs run (but not GOAT level). I'd take 1999, 2001-05 and 2007 Duncan over 2019 Kawhi. That's 7 seasons with 2006 close to that.


I get your point.

But still, you can't blame an ATG's offense on the defensive attention that they receive. That's like me blaming Rose's poor 2011 performance against the Heat on him being the focal point of the Heat's defense. While it's true, that's still no excuse for one of the greatest to be able to be one of the greatest, regardless of the defense that they face. It's why Harden doesn't get a pass for last year's or any year's playoffs.

At some point, excuses are just that- excuses. It's ok to have blemishes. That's one of Duncan's very few.

Sure, you are right. That's why I never called Duncan one of the best offensive players ever - he struggled against really good Pistons defense. I don't want to excuse him from that. My point is different - due to this pressence Manu had far more space to operate and Pistons didn't gameplan to stop Manu. So while Ginobili produced more impressive offense by himself than Duncan, he wouldn't have done that with the same defensive focus.

In comparison to other first options Duncan gets no excuses for this series. In comparison to Manu in the same series, this needs additional context.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#27 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:40 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:I'll say definitely '99, '01 through '04, '06 and '07.

2005 loses out not because of the playoff performance, which I think was fine, but because he only played 66 RS games. That said, I'm really on the fence with '05 and might include it if you asked me tomorrow, it's just not quite as definite as the rest.

It would be pretty easy to talk me into one or more post-'07 years, because Duncan as he aged became one of the few players ever who essentially guaranteed a good defense by himself, but for now just because of the physical decline I'm sticking with the seven seasons above.


Do you consider 2017 to be Kawhi's peak?
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#28 » by cecilthesheep » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:19 pm

No-more-rings wrote:In 04, he played 69 games, not much difference and they seem nearly identical statistically in 04 and 05. I think you’d have to nitpick hard to include 04 and not 05 or vice versa.

This is a great point. I do think he was slightly better in 2004 even if it doesn't show up in the per-possession stats, but I'm leaning harder towards including '05 now that I think about this a little more.
70sFan wrote:Do you consider 2017 to be Kawhi's peak?

As far as regular season and overall level of play, yeah, but in the context of "which season would you take against these Duncan years" I guess it has to be 2019 because of the season-ending injury in '17. Huh. So I guess I should for sure take Duncan's '05 as well, given Kawhi's similarly poor availability in '19. 8 seasons it is.

If we ignored injuries and only focused on actual level of play while on the court, I think the only thing that would change is I'd also include 2000 as the 9th Duncan season. Kawhi was better in '17 than '19 imo, but not better enough to pass any Duncan years between '99 and '07.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#29 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:and 2007 Duncan didn't outplay Manu in the WCF or the Finals. Go look at the TOV% in the WCF and also the TS in the finals. Now you're just exaggerating Duncan's offense.


So TS% is good when Manu beats Duncan in the finals, but in WCF is meaningless? But it's me who exaggerating, sure...


They had the same TS but Manu had the huge advantage on TOV% and offensive rating.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#30 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:28 pm

70sFan wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Duncan "got out performed" offensively in 2005 because he was by far the main focus for defenses. He was doubled and tripled which was the key for Spurs offense back then.

By your logic, Duncan outplayed Manu in every series in 2007. In the finals, he had only one game worse than Manu and he had two good and two weak offensive performances against good defensive team that was outmatched.

If this is the reason why you call Duncan's offense questinable, then it's a weak argument. What is queationable in his offensive performances in 1999, 2001 or 2006?

As I said, 2017 Kawhi is great but he got injured in playoffs. 2019 Kawhi is roughly on 2006 Duncan's level - weak RS and outstanding playoffs run (but not GOAT level). I'd take 1999, 2001-05 and 2007 Duncan over 2019 Kawhi. That's 7 seasons with 2006 close to that.


I get your point.

But still, you can't blame an ATG's offense on the defensive attention that they receive. That's like me blaming Rose's poor 2011 performance against the Heat on him being the focal point of the Heat's defense. While it's true, that's still no excuse for one of the greatest to be able to be one of the greatest, regardless of the defense that they face. It's why Harden doesn't get a pass for last year's or any year's playoffs.

At some point, excuses are just that- excuses. It's ok to have blemishes. That's one of Duncan's very few.

Sure, you are right. That's why I never called Duncan one of the best offensive players ever - he struggled against really good Pistons defense. I don't want to excuse him from that. My point is different - due to this pressence Manu had far more space to operate and Pistons didn't gameplan to stop Manu. So while Ginobili produced more impressive offense by himself than Duncan, he wouldn't have done that with the same defensive focus.

In comparison to other first options Duncan gets no excuses for this series. In comparison to Manu in the same series, this needs additional context.


You want to talk about defensive focus? What about Robert Horry's game winning 3 point shot that practically won the series? How did he get so wide open? Because Rasheed could care less about Duncan at the time and double teamed Manu Ginobli. So much for defense attention, I didn't see Siakam or Lowry getting double teamed ever in the playoffs late in the game! Kawhi usually had Embiid chasing him down on the double team and Kawhi still made it in Embiid's face game 4 a three pointer with a minute left and the game 7 game winner.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#31 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:33 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:and 2007 Duncan didn't outplay Manu in the WCF or the Finals. Go look at the TOV% in the WCF and also the TS in the finals. Now you're just exaggerating Duncan's offense.


So TS% is good when Manu beats Duncan in the finals, but in WCF is meaningless? But it's me who exaggerating, sure...


They had the same TS but Manu had the huge advantage on TOV% and offensive rating.


So that's why Duncan got carried by Manu? Because he had worse TOV%? Duncan also averaged 4 ppg more than Manu on the same efficieny. I love how you talk about volume when Kawhi is in conversation, but now it's meaningless because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Duncan averaged 22/10/3/3 on 63% TS and he was carried by Manu who averaged 18/4/4 on 63%. It's not about who was better overall, it's about how ridiculous word "carry" sounds here. At worst they were two main options on Spurs offense. Nobody carried anybody on Spurs team after 2004. They were both good offensive players and Duncan didn't need anyone to carry him. What is so tough to understand?
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#32 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:39 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
I get your point.

But still, you can't blame an ATG's offense on the defensive attention that they receive. That's like me blaming Rose's poor 2011 performance against the Heat on him being the focal point of the Heat's defense. While it's true, that's still no excuse for one of the greatest to be able to be one of the greatest, regardless of the defense that they face. It's why Harden doesn't get a pass for last year's or any year's playoffs.

At some point, excuses are just that- excuses. It's ok to have blemishes. That's one of Duncan's very few.

Sure, you are right. That's why I never called Duncan one of the best offensive players ever - he struggled against really good Pistons defense. I don't want to excuse him from that. My point is different - due to this pressence Manu had far more space to operate and Pistons didn't gameplan to stop Manu. So while Ginobili produced more impressive offense by himself than Duncan, he wouldn't have done that with the same defensive focus.

In comparison to other first options Duncan gets no excuses for this series. In comparison to Manu in the same series, this needs additional context.


You want to talk about defensive focus? What about Robert Horry's game winning 3 point shot that practically won the series? How did he get so wide open? Because Rasheed could care less about Duncan at the time and double teamed Manu Ginobli. So much for defense attention, I didn't see Siakam or Lowry getting double teamed ever in the playoffs late in the game! Kawhi usually had Embiid chasing him down on the double team and Kawhi still made it in Embiid's face game 4 a three pointer with a minute left and the game 7 game winner.


What are you talking about? "Rasheed could care less about Duncan" because he didn't guard Duncan, Spurs had only 9 seconds to go and Manu got the ball in the corner. Rasheed doubled him automatically because he defended Horry's pass. Duncan didn't get the ball, Spurs didn't have time for that. He did mistake because Horry couldn't be left wide open, but that's beyond the point.

All of your posts are full of empty narratives and hard agendas. This situation was completely meaningless in this discussion but it sounds cool, so you decided to use it anyway.

For those who never saw Horry's game winner, here it is:



1:14 - it's up to you to decide what to do with that example.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#33 » by cpower » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:42 pm

most of the prime seasons. why did Kawhi make an impact in RS ever?
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#34 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:10 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Sure, you are right. That's why I never called Duncan one of the best offensive players ever - he struggled against really good Pistons defense. I don't want to excuse him from that. My point is different - due to this pressence Manu had far more space to operate and Pistons didn't gameplan to stop Manu. So while Ginobili produced more impressive offense by himself than Duncan, he wouldn't have done that with the same defensive focus.

In comparison to other first options Duncan gets no excuses for this series. In comparison to Manu in the same series, this needs additional context.


You want to talk about defensive focus? What about Robert Horry's game winning 3 point shot that practically won the series? How did he get so wide open? Because Rasheed could care less about Duncan at the time and double teamed Manu Ginobli. So much for defense attention, I didn't see Siakam or Lowry getting double teamed ever in the playoffs late in the game! Kawhi usually had Embiid chasing him down on the double team and Kawhi still made it in Embiid's face game 4 a three pointer with a minute left and the game 7 game winner.


What are you talking about? "Rasheed could care less about Duncan" because he didn't guard Duncan, Spurs had only 9 seconds to go and Manu got the ball in the corner. Rasheed doubled him automatically because he defended Horry's pass. Duncan didn't get the ball, Spurs didn't have time for that. He did mistake because Horry couldn't be left wide open, but that's beyond the point.

All of your posts are full of empty narratives and hard agendas. This situation was completely meaningless in this discussion but it sounds cool, so you decided to use it anyway.

For those who never saw Horry's game winner, here it is:



1:14 - it's up to you to decide what to do with that example.


Manu was double teamed and trapped for a reason, he was spurs best offensive player that series. Rasheed has a very high iq and knew Manu was dangerous in that spot. Rasheed wouldn't just double anybody who caught the ball there like you make it seem. What would of happened if Manu didn't draw the double and get Horry wide open? Would Duncan throw up another brick like he had been doing all series? The attention on Manu is what won them that game.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#35 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:14 pm

cpower wrote:most of the prime seasons. why did Kawhi make an impact in RS ever?


2016 - led them to 67 wins and one of the best SRS seasons ever

2017 - led them to 61 wins

2019 is underrated too, he started dominating offensively around January when he went into regular form after wearing off rust. He sat out 90% garbage teams and they won, which majority title teams would all do without their best player (especially Pop's Spurs during 2005-2007).
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#36 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:48 pm

Manu outplayed Duncan in 3\4 wins during the finals. And are 2005 Pistons even alltime great level defense? They were ranked 3rd that year. The only time Duncan played like an offensive superstar that year was against the 17th ranked Steve Nash suns or the 27th ranked Sonics. 2005 Suns and Sonics? There defense isn't even better than 2019 Orlando Magic! and than Kawhi had to face Embiid\Giannis the following series after that and than the 73 win core in the finals.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#37 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:07 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
So TS% is good when Manu beats Duncan in the finals, but in WCF is meaningless? But it's me who exaggerating, sure...


They had the same TS but Manu had the huge advantage on TOV% and offensive rating.


So that's why Duncan got carried by Manu? Because he had worse TOV%? Duncan also averaged 4 ppg more than Manu on the same efficieny. I love how you talk about volume when Kawhi is in conversation, but now it's meaningless because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Duncan averaged 22/10/3/3 on 63% TS and he was carried by Manu who averaged 18/4/4 on 63%. It's not about who was better overall, it's about how ridiculous word "carry" sounds here. At worst they were two main options on Spurs offense. Nobody carried anybody on Spurs team after 2004. They were both good offensive players and Duncan didn't need anyone to carry him. What is so tough to understand?


Higher offensive rating, better TOV%, better playmaker = better offensive player

If you're a goat level player and you got your sidekick out performing you damn near every series, I'm going to use the term carry because I don't respect your offense.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#38 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:16 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:If you're a goat level player and you got your sidekick out performing you damn near every series, I'm going to use the term carry because I don't respect your offense.


Then you act like a fool who knows nothing about basketball. Don't destroy this thread like you did with many others.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#39 » by inDe_eD » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:20 pm

cpower wrote:most of the prime seasons. why did Kawhi make an impact in RS ever?


kinda silly to say the guy with the highest regular season winning percentage of all time doesn’t have a RS impact.
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Re: How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi? 

Post#40 » by liamliam1234 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:37 pm

Kawhi was fourth in NPI RAPM in 2017 (behind Curry, Lebron, and Draymond), sixth in 2016 (behind those three, Durant, and Paul), and fifth in 2015 (behind those original three and, uh, Kyle Korver; if using multi-year, Korver is swapped for Chris Paul).

Kawhi is absolutely an impactful regular season player, even if not quite as much so as peak Duncan.

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