2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4101 » by Jaivl » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:26 am

freethedevil wrote:it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes

Well, Ricky vs Kawhi in terms of passing is probably the easiest comparison ever made in this forum, easier than 2020 Butler vs 2009 Wade supporting casts.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4102 » by Dupp » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:41 am

freethedevil wrote:it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes



Wait are you actually saying kawhis a better passer than Rubio?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4103 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:48 am

Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes



Wait are you actually saying kawhis a better passer than Rubio?

Yes. Kawhi's passes are way more valuable even if rubio is a lot more skilled. Even **** embid is 98th percentile in creation. And he can't pass for ****.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4104 » by Dupp » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:11 am

freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes



Wait are you actually saying kawhis a better passer than Rubio?

Yes. Kawhi's passes are way more valuable even if rubio is a lot more skilled. Even **** embid is 98th percentile in creation. And he can't pass for ****.



What a strange hill to die on. Especially adding "laughable opinion" part.... Wonder if you could find a single person that agrees with you. I have my doubts.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4105 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:00 pm

70sFan wrote:
freethedevil wrote:who gives a **** about kareem's best assisting season? we're talking kareem at his best which was obviously not 1979 and like I said , he was a better passer then. Why don't we just give 2009 lebron his 40% three poitn shooting from 2013 and his league best passing from 2020? Then obviously lebron becomes the best scorer in history, the best offensive player in hsitory and we've effectively ended the goat discussion.

Limbo did give a *** because he mentioned it. Besides, there is no meaningful difference in Kareem as a passer in 1979 and 1977. He was the same passer, but had better teammates in 1979 so he could share the ball more.

Your comparison is much different, because James visibly improved as a passer and shooter from 2009. Kareem was around the same level as a passer from at least 1977 (can't comment 1976, haven't seen any footage from that season).
i was talking releative to 71 but sure
Even if I accept 79 kareem's creation, Giannis creates for more of his teamamtes offense via passing(assist%), kills kareem in volume(10-5 OC), and does so more effeciently(passer rating+assit:turnover percentage). Kareem is not a comparable passer unless you completely ignore what actually happened.

You still mention assists and passing in volume, but it's not what represents passing ability. Would you take Giannis over Larry Bird from passing standpoint as well? He creates more opportunities after all..
the goal of passing is creation, and no you're wrong, bird has a much high peasser rating than giannis, iow "he was much more effecient". You're not balancing stats and eyetest, literally all you said was "kareem's a better passer" and now you're completely ignoring a collosal gap in volume by any measure AS well as a gap in effiency by any measure. You cannot argue kareem is a better passer than giannis without ignoting any and all statistical evidence because any of all of it tells us giannis is much better at creating via passing.
As for Rick Barry, at this point all you've done is say you think rick barry is a better passer than giannis, limo clearly disagrees, and given your argumentation is entiurely based on what barry's passing looked like, it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes. Until you make something resembling a compelling case for barry vs giannis as a passer, I'm going to ignore it as the red herring it currently is.

What do you want from me to prove that Barry is better passer than Giannis? Should I give you video? Do you think that only stats matter? I think results matter.. For your eyetest ro prove limo wrong then i'd expect a extensive breakdown of tape and film. Given rick barry is essential for your claim that we must ignore any holistic or granular data in regards to kareem, the burden's on your to provide proof.

Honestly, I've never thought something like Barry vs Giannis in passing can be arguable. Anyone who has seen at least a few Barry games knows that Rick created a lot of high reward plays (layps assists) despite being an off-ball threat. He was like Larry Bird in that aspect - he consistently attacked defense with touch passes and he could manipulate defenders with his passing at very high level.


Some things are clearly visible when you watch games. I'm not one of these who say that "stats suck, eye-test only matters" but there are levels to that. Except no, you are ignoring all and every **** stat that exists to say that kareem is even comparable let alone better than giannis at passing. Kareem>Giannis at passing is only consistent with "stats are worth nothing" because there is literally nothing that supports kareem as a comparable passer. I also dont know what you're watching when you say kareem passes better. Giannis's passes are much higher velocity and giannis finds much tighter windows. Even in his "horrible" performance against the heat in game 1, he hit two pinpoint missles for what should have been two layup assists. Kareem is better at hooking it near the rim. Giannis passes better everywhere else, transition, layup passes, kickouts, skip or bounce inside, and his passes are way way faster. I watched all of kareem's laker playoffs, I've never seen kareem hit a pass as fast as Giannis did twice against the heat and his passing is waaaay less versatile and he passes way less. Kareem's passing is much more like davis than it is like giannis.


Kareem didn't peak in 77 he peaked in 72 where he was able to carry a robertson-less bucks to 60 win basketball and had was better from the post and at the rim than the 71 version of kareem who led his team with robertson to 70 win basketball.

It's not a fact, it's your opinion. I'm very high on Bucks versions of Kareem but he improved offensively in mid-70s while still mantaining enough athleticism to be highly impactful on defense.
whatever, giannis is a better passer than those kareems too.
Him being able to move faster, jump higher and way better defense easily outweigh incremental improvements in scoring versatility that were only neccesary because of a. the influx of talent(which as a byproduct made kareem and the bucks worse relatively speaking) and b. kareem losing his atheleticism and quickness.

I'm not sure you are right, Kareem improved as a passer for example - is that a meaningless improvement?
given how little his passing was used, i dont think it does much more than add some value around the margins.
The "better while older" narrative people play up is certifiable nonsense. Lebron was worth 40 wins at the age of 24, jordan's best came at 28, curry's best playoffs were in 27, his best regular season was in 26.

Again, you're acting like there is no debate that 2009 is James peak. Besides, Kareem was 28 in 1976 and 29 in 1977, he wasn't old then. By his own words, he was at his best in 1976 season.
mj said he was best in 1996. dont make him right. Either way giannis is still a better passer than 76 kareem
The only real exceptions to this either played during explainsion-weakened eras(which is the opposite of the kareem years in question) or get all their value from a very limited set of skills.

Wilt peaked in 1967. sure
Magic arguably peaked in 1990. 86-88 magic clearly better imo
West peaked in 1968. well idk really know much about west, but ben rated 1966 higher. And Ben actually breaks down tape. Off course 68 was when the princeton offense was established and they went goaty offensively
Hakeem peaked in 1994. i mentioned expansion

You are not right, every player has different trajectory. all the players you listed except for the exception i already noted are younger than 30. One or two of them peaked at 29 depending on if I go by you or ben's account of west. Not a great track record for oldies. Furthermore that wasn't the main reason i think kareem is better. The main reason i think kareem is better in 1972 is because his team dropped off without him to a significantly higher extent than late kareem. EVEN, when the lakers were mess due to two trades in 1978. And he had that impact on MUCH better teams. He was a better cieling raiser and a better floor rasier. The holistic evidence clearly favors 1971 and 1972 kareem both as a floor and cileing raiser, and i dont know why i should assume that the offensive improvment was worth the defensive loss when it didn't transalte to better results induvdually or team wise.

Kareem was worth more, played much better d, and was much more atheltic, on much better teams. He was simply better

You vastly underrate 1977 Kareem athleticism if you think he's much less athletic. He wasn't much worse defender either. he got to the rim more, protected the rim better, and wasn't burned on drives as much. Seems like a significant drop off to me. Ofc you claimed kareem was better defensively than someone who impacts defenses on a similar level to kg and duncan while leading -8 postseason and rs teams, so I don't know what to make of your opinons on defenisve impact. :dontknow:
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4106 » by frica » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:01 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:It was never optimal to run your offense through bigman, unless you have truly elite bigman. People act like Jokic doesn't count because he's special - every good offensive bigman was special. Kareem wouldn't become Meyers Leonard in today league. Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal had no peers in 70 years of NBA history. Saying that Kanter or Okafor play doesn't mean much in conparison to Wilt or Shaq, who were absolute outlier.

Nobody ever dominated the league with Wilt or Shaq style. Other than Wilt and Shaq of course.


The point is that the scale has tipped heavily in favor of wing/guard perimeter-based offensive systems in the last couple of decades...

There's no way any player, no matter how big or small, would be able to be anywhere close to the best offensive player in the league today playing the way Kareem did. And this is not a slight on Kareem, but the average NBA team is able to just generate much better offensive looks on a per-possession basis in today's league, mostly by the league improving in outside shooting as a whole, but also some rule changes that gave dribblers more leeway of what they're allowed to get away with on the court.

The only way Big men can hang with perimeter players in offensive impact and hope to anchor a championship caliber offense nowadays is if they mimic what perimeter players are doing on offense...;that is, be able to shoot, dribble, pass, score from anywhere on the floor.

This wasn't the case in the past... You could have a Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon type of offensive anchor and still have a fringe Top 5 offense 15-25 years ago. And the further back you go in time, the less you could optimize your offense through perimeter-based offensive systems. Which is why guys like Moses Malone could dominate offensively in the late 70's by basically camping in the low block, with no passing ability whatsoever and a middling 14 foot jumper at best.

But wasn't this always true?
West and Robertson already led the greatest pre-3pt offenses.
How much is from rule changes, and how much is from smarter/better coaching?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4107 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:03 pm

Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:

Wait are you actually saying kawhis a better passer than Rubio?

Yes. Kawhi's passes are way more valuable even if rubio is a lot more skilled. Even **** embid is 98th percentile in creation. And he can't pass for ****.



Wonder if you could find a single person that agrees with you. I have my doubts.
What a strange way to respond. I explained my reasoning, why respond if you won't address it?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4108 » by limbo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:17 pm

I mean, i think i kind of get what he's trying to say, but i don't know about the example he used, since i think Rubio isn't a good representation of this phenomenon and he's actually an elite passer, lol.

I think a better example to illustrate the relationship between passing and offensive creation is comparing guys like Giannis and Joakim Noah.

If you look at Noah's best playmaking season, his numbers look comparable to Giannis (or arguably better, if you account for lower turnovers). But Noah was used mostly as a high post offensive hub in terms of playmaking. He was very good at passing from those areas, but when he received the ball, he wasn't actually sponging defensive pressure onto himself that gave him various passing angles and left his teammates open because teams had to deal with Noah's presence on the ball... All the action was happening off-ball, Noah was just tasked with hitting whoever became open.

This is different when it comes to how Giannis creates offense. A lot of Giannis passes come from him driving to the basket, and because he finishes at a 78% clip around the rim, defenses have to respond to his drives, usually by sending people towards him to help wall him off. Most of the power of Giannis creation isn't him making the final pass for the assist like Noah did as an high-post offensive hub, hitting off-ball cutters, but his value in offensive creation comes from putting more pressure on the rim as an attacker, which scrambles defenses and directly causes the other Bucks players to have more freedom to pick their spots on offense. Even if the Giannis kick-out doesn't end in an assist, the defense is in scramble mode and the ball gets swung across the court leaving bigger gaps to attack... A guy like Noah doesn't do this... Noah has good timing and accuracy on his passes to cutters, but that's it. He's not doing anything when he has the ball that would make it easier for his teammates to get freed from defensive pressure, thus making his overall halfcourt creation less valuable, despite having comparable assist totals.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4109 » by limbo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:24 pm

frica wrote:
limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:It was never optimal to run your offense through bigman, unless you have truly elite bigman. People act like Jokic doesn't count because he's special - every good offensive bigman was special. Kareem wouldn't become Meyers Leonard in today league. Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal had no peers in 70 years of NBA history. Saying that Kanter or Okafor play doesn't mean much in conparison to Wilt or Shaq, who were absolute outlier.

Nobody ever dominated the league with Wilt or Shaq style. Other than Wilt and Shaq of course.


The point is that the scale has tipped heavily in favor of wing/guard perimeter-based offensive systems in the last couple of decades...

There's no way any player, no matter how big or small, would be able to be anywhere close to the best offensive player in the league today playing the way Kareem did. And this is not a slight on Kareem, but the average NBA team is able to just generate much better offensive looks on a per-possession basis in today's league, mostly by the league improving in outside shooting as a whole, but also some rule changes that gave dribblers more leeway of what they're allowed to get away with on the court.

The only way Big men can hang with perimeter players in offensive impact and hope to anchor a championship caliber offense nowadays is if they mimic what perimeter players are doing on offense...;that is, be able to shoot, dribble, pass, score from anywhere on the floor.

This wasn't the case in the past... You could have a Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon type of offensive anchor and still have a fringe Top 5 offense 15-25 years ago. And the further back you go in time, the less you could optimize your offense through perimeter-based offensive systems. Which is why guys like Moses Malone could dominate offensively in the late 70's by basically camping in the low block, with no passing ability whatsoever and a middling 14 foot jumper at best.

But wasn't this always true?
West and Robertson already led the greatest pre-3pt offenses.
How much is from rule changes, and how much is from smarter/better coaching?


Why did you ignore the phrase before the bolded part? I didn't say it wasn't always like this, i said that gap is way bigger now. Whatever the gap between Oscar/West and whoever the best offensive big men were in the 60's, that gap would have been way bigger now in favor of Oscar and West. That's not to say that some of the best offensive big men in the 60's couldn't be even better now than they were back then (specifically those who could shoot well from range and pass/dribble well), but Oscar and West skillset would have a bigger capacity/potential for augmentation and those Bugs whose impact relied heavily on old-style interior scoring would get phased out.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4110 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:14 pm

freethedevil wrote:i was talking releative to 71 but sure

So you picked a season in which Kareem had the lowest assist average in his whole prime? Why?

the goal of passing is creation, and no you're wrong, bird has a much high peasser rating than giannis, iow "he was much more effecient". You're not balancing stats and eyetest, literally all you said was "kareem's a better passer" and now you're completely ignoring a collosal gap in volume by any measure AS well as a gap in effiency by any measure. You cannot argue kareem is a better passer than giannis without ignoting any and all statistical evidence because any of all of it tells us giannis is much better at creating via passing.

But the gap isn't collosal and I never said that Kareem created more looks. Creating is not always related to passing ability and that's my point.

I think results matter.. For your eyetest ro prove limo wrong then i'd expect a extensive breakdown of tape and film. Given rick barry is essential for your claim that we must ignore any holistic or granular data in regards to kareem, the burden's on your to provide proof.

Sorry but I don't have the time to make extensive breakdown of tape to prove such a clear point. You can watch any random Barry game and find a few elite passes that led to high percentage shots. This is not in line with Giannis, who is good at finding open teammates but struggles with more advanced reads.

Your point about Kawhi vs Rubio alone makes it clear that you don't understand what is the difference in passing and creating.

Except no, you are ignoring all and every **** stat that exists to say that kareem is even comparable let alone better than giannis at passing. Kareem>Giannis at passing is only consistent with "stats are worth nothing" because there is literally nothing that supports kareem as a comparable passer. I also dont know what you're watching when you say kareem passes better. Giannis's passes are much higher velocity and giannis finds much tighter windows. Even in his "horrible" performance against the heat in game 1, he hit two pinpoint missles for what should have been two layup assists. Kareem is better at hooking it near the rim. Giannis passes better everywhere else, transition, layup passes, kickouts, skip or bounce inside, and his passes are way way faster. I watched all of kareem's laker playoffs, I've never seen kareem hit a pass as fast as Giannis did twice against the heat and his passing is waaaay less versatile and he passes way less. Kareem's passing is much more like davis than it is like giannis.

No, we clearly disagree with that. Kareem didn't struggle with velocity at all (he's much better outler passer for example) and I don't view Giannis passes as tight at all. He's decent from mechanical perspective, but he lacks vision to find these quick windows and punish defense for that - this is where Kareem is inarguably better.

given how little his passing was used, i dont think it does much more than add some value around the margins.

Just because he didn't have high assist numbers doesn't mean that his passing wasn't used.
West peaked in 1968. well idk really know much about west, but ben rated 1966 higher. And Ben actually breaks down tape. Off course 68 was when the princeton offense was established and they went goaty offensively

I love Ben's work and I've been close to him recently, but he's not the only man who breaks down the tape. He didn't see as much tape from 1968 season as me.
Hakeem peaked in 1994. i mentioned expansion

Expansion didn't make Hakeem better passer or decision maker.

all the players you listed except for the exception i already noted are younger than 30. One or two of them peaked at 29 depending on if I go by you or ben's account of west. Not a great track record for oldies. Furthermore that wasn't the main reason i think kareem is better. The main reason i think kareem is better in 1972 is because his team dropped off without him to a significantly higher extent than late kareem. EVEN, when the lakers were mess due to two trades in 1978. And he had that impact on MUCH better teams. He was a better cieling raiser and a better floor rasier. The holistic evidence clearly favors 1971 and 1972 kareem both as a floor and cileing raiser, and i dont know why i should assume that the offensive improvment was worth the defensive loss when it didn't transalte to better results induvdually or team wise.

We don't know how bad his team was in 1977 without him (1978 is much different) because he played all games but I've seen almost all Kareem playoffs games from that season and believe me, Lakers absolutely sucked without him. Milwaukee played at higher level but they were much better team without him as well.
Besides, we don't know anything about 1972 Bucks without Kareem - he played all games in that season.

he got to the rim more, protected the rim better, and wasn't burned on drives as much. Seems like a significant drop off to me. Ofc you claimed kareem was better defensively than someone who impacts defenses on a similar level to kg and duncan while leading -8 postseason and rs teams, so I don't know what to make of your opinons on defenisve impact. :dontknow:

Be honest - how many 1971 and 1972 Kareem games have you seen? I've seen 7 and I'm sure you haven't seen at least half of them.

Kareem got to the rim at similar level and he still protected the paint at all-time level in 1977. He was a bit slower laterally, but he was also smarter with his positioning.

Giannis isn't close to KG and Duncan defensively.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4111 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:30 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes



Wait are you actually saying kawhis a better passer than Rubio?

Yes. Kawhi's passes are way more valuable even if rubio is a lot more skilled. Even **** embid is 98th percentile in creation. And he can't pass for ****.


So you're clearly leaping straight into the conflict with your words, and that's okay, but to put your assessment in the parlance I prefer:

You think that Kawhi is a more effective passer in practice despite being literally a worse passer.

On a somewhat related tangent:

It bothers me when people say that LeBron's best skill is his passing because there's literally never been a time in his life when teams are more afraid of his passes than his scoring. His passing is build on top of his scoring, not the other way around. You can argue that regardless of this that his passing skills are so elite that they should be ranked higher than his scoring - though I'm very, very skeptical - but there's a difference between his passing and Magic's passing even if LeBron has tried his whole career to associate his passing with Magic's that goes beyond mere style.

LeBron may be the most effective passer in the league, but given the way he plays, he would not be if everyone wasn't terrified of his scoring. Kawhi is in a similar boat while being far less skilled than LeBron.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4112 » by Heej » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:

Wait are you actually saying kawhis a better passer than Rubio?

Yes. Kawhi's passes are way more valuable even if rubio is a lot more skilled. Even **** embid is 98th percentile in creation. And he can't pass for ****.


So you're clearly leaping straight into the conflict with your words, and that's okay, but to put your assessment in the parlance I prefer:

You think that Kawhi is a more effective passer in practice despite being literally a worse passer.

On a somewhat related tangent:

It bothers me when people say that LeBron's best skill is his passing because there's literally never been a time in his life when teams are more afraid of his passes than his scoring. His passing is build on top of his scoring, not the other way around. You can argue that regardless of this that his passing skills are so elite that they should be ranked higher than his scoring - though I'm very, very skeptical - but there's a difference between his passing and Magic's passing even if LeBron has tried his whole career to associate his passing with Magic's that goes beyond mere style.

LeBron may be the most effective passer in the league, but given the way he plays, he would not be if everyone wasn't terrified of his scoring. Kawhi is in a similar boat while being far less skilled than LeBron.

This is the exception that proves the rule, but there was one team that feared his passing more and that was the 09 Magic under SVG. They were determined to not let LeBron get other guys involved as much, at least according to Stan.

But I definitely agree with the rest of what you're getting at. LeBron's effectiveness as a passer is elevated by his scoring compared to his absolute value "goodness" as a passer. I can buy Kawhi being more effective a passer than Rubio but in a vacuum there's no way to say he's as good of a passer as Rubio lol.

I do think LeBron's passing is getting underrated here tho, because even if his vision isn't GOAT level his speed and accuracy and ability to throw on the move absolutely is. It's like Aaron Rodgers vs Peyton Manning in that sense.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4113 » by CKRT » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:39 pm

with Lue signing to the Clippers and Morey stepping down I wonder if Houston tries to blow it up. I'd like to see Harden be placed into another team.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4114 » by MisterHibachi » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:37 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19

I'm not opposed to basketball on Christmas, but this feels like a very quick turnaround.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4115 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:41 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

I'm not opposed to basketball on Christmas, but this feels like a very quick turnaround.


Depending on the details I think this might be the best approach.

Those details being:

1. Completely giving up on fans in the stands in next year's regular season.
2. Bubble-like tournaments being the focal point of the regular season following the model of the actual Bubble.

I've been hearing that the NBA has figured out that another few months aren't going to cure COVID and so the priority is just to make sure that next season happens with the finals not pushed much back compared to normal (June-ish finals).

Of course, if they end up just opening everything up it will be a huge mistake.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4116 » by MisterHibachi » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:30 pm

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The NBA should implement a playoff preview week, and schedule every team for a 3 game mini series (with no impact beyond regular season standings). Allow coaches to flex their playoff game planning muscles and allow players who wouldn't make the playoffs get a taste for it.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4117 » by Dupp » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:44 pm

If players are happy to come back that soon Christmas is fine. Seems too soon for me though and I thought players would want to wait longer.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4118 » by MO12msu » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:27 pm

Yeah from a players/games operations standpoint that timeline seems super aggressive. You're asking some people to have been away from family for 4 straight months in the summer, come home for like a month and a half, and then have to go back to work right during the holidays. Not sure how well that will sell from a mental health perspective.

Think it makes more sense to start around early to mid-January (MLK Day) and then allow however many games so that you can fit the finals in before the Olympics (if they even happen). I imagine that's important to a lot of the NBA's stars including Luka, Giannis, and Jokic.

Then get on whatever the new normal schedule will be for the 2021-22 season.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4119 » by therealbig3 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:42 am

Watched a few Wilt interviews specifically regarding the GOAT, during the 90s at the height of Jordan's prime, and he's very vocal about the fact that he doesn't think Jordan's the greatest and that not only himself but a number of other players (he mentions Russell, but nobody else specific) were better than him. Talks about how soft the era is now and how much physically tougher it was during his day and that Jordan would have been crushed if he tried taking it into the paint during his era. Also specifically points out how just because one guy wins more rings doesn't make them the greater player necessarily.

Beyond the familiar criticisms of the more modern era by a player from a previous era, it kind of puts in perspective how much the media narrative has shaped the GOAT discussion. Back in the day, you really did have a number of people that were way more familiar with and more closely identified with the 60s and 70s and had Wilt or Russell as the GOAT. Then Kareem entered the conversation during the 70s. But the Magic/Bird era during the 80s re-popularized the game and then Jordan began his ascent when Magic and Bird were in their primes and at the top of the game. As time has gone by, Wilt/Russell/Kareem have become more forgotten about, and the media really only talks about Magic/Bird and then Jordan as the clearly greater player among the three, and that's it for the GOAT discussion. Sure, they'll talk about Wilt and Russell and Kareem, but they'll make it seem like they played in the Stone Age, while Magic/Bird/Jordan played during the Golden Era, and Jordan reigned supreme against his direct competition. Now, fans of the 80s and 90s are the old heads, and fans of even earlier eras when Wilt/Russell/Kareem were the GOAT candidates are way fewer now. Furthermore, it highlights how winning a bunch of rings didn't become the absolute requirement for GOAT status until Jordan.

And that's all a media narrative, and it's why Jordan's near consensus status as the GOAT within the media will likely never change. Because he's gotten mythologized in a way previous greats never did, and that's now cemented in history.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4120 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 am

MisterHibachi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

The NBA should implement a playoff preview week, and schedule every team for a 3 game mini series (with no impact beyond regular season standings). Allow coaches to flex their playoff game planning muscles and allow players who wouldn't make the playoffs get a taste for it.


As a fan I'd love that. I wonder if the coaches and players would want that though.

To the headline, I really think they need to be thinking bigger than "Opponents will visit the duos in NY & LA on the same trip."

If there aren't going to be fans, then why not 5-6 teams be at a place at a time and just do round robins? Wouldn't that make everything easier and allow an easy way to scrap a particular mini-bubble that gets exposed to COVID with a far greater chance of not having it spread across the NBA?
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