2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2261 » by eminence » Tue Jun 2, 2020 2:21 pm

It may produce exciting games and I'm sure I'll watch them, so they'll get there way.

But yep, still 100% against anything larger than just inviting the top 8 in each conference.

The bit about a 20 team group stage doesn't even make sense to me, are the top two seeds getting a buy from the group stage or what?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2262 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 2, 2020 8:59 pm

ardee wrote:https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258314/NBA-Moving-To-Complete-Details-Of-22-Team-Resumption-Of-Season

Please don't tell me this is going to be that godforsaken group stage idea. Judging by the fact it's 5 extra West teams and 1 East team, it seems that is the likely scenario. Good way to discredit the champion of this year even further than most people already will under the circumstances.


Okay I'm gonna get salty here:

1. I think a round robin first round is a good idea for sports in general if the alternative is something as godawful as the current NBA 1st round, and I feel like people aren't thinking about this. Folks, everyone hates the first round. It's a waste of everyone's time to see some 39 win team get blown out again and again by a real team, even worse when the real team just coasts through the round. If we're not going to skip to the top 8 teams, I'd support this change period. Much more interesting to see a variety of matchups in the first round, and it's long added excitement to the World Cup and the Olympics in various sports.

2. I think people need to shut up about asterisks. All you're doing is discrediting the work done by the athletes whose work you care about. The fact that a given year is different can make it special - a bit like winning a F1 race in rough weather shows true skill - but if enough NBA fans convince the world it's crap, the world will tune out and the players will blow it off.

(I respect Phil Jackson in general but HATE what he's done to the '99 Spurs with his asterisk talk. That was pure self-aggrandizement that nobody in the entire world should have been stupid enough to fall for, but 20 years later, here we f-ing are.)

Finally on the pure practicalities of the situation:

The NBA is thinking about how to get more teams involved without forcing a continuation of the regular season. Getting more teams involved gets more fanbases involved which adds to the excitement. It makes sense in a situation where you're concerned that half of NBA fans just won't bother tuning back in.

And just to go back to it: I don't want to hear anyone defend allowing 16 teams in as if that's not "letting everybody in" but bash adding a few more teams in (while reducing the amount they play against one team). The 16th best team is crap. Nobody has every cared about it. I'm totally fine with anyone who basically doesn't watch the first round every year and decries it as a shameless money grab.

But if you're going to accept the 1st round in general, the stuff they are talking about now is nothing to get outraged about. What the NBA wanted to do was re-start the regular season, but everybody sane told them that was a horrible idea, so this is them trying to activate re-engagement before the real playoffs (aka Conference Semi-Finals) starts the best way they can. The odds of it changing the champion is quite small, and if you lose in the round robin, you don't deserve the championship period.

/rant

I apologize for my overly harsh words. They are not anything I wish to rationally defend, I'm just sick of the cynicism I smell everywhere right now.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2263 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 2, 2020 9:04 pm

eminence wrote:It may produce exciting games and I'm sure I'll watch them, so they'll get there way.

But yep, still 100% against anything larger than just inviting the top 8 in each conference.

The bit about a 20 team group stage doesn't even make sense to me, are the top two seeds getting a buy from the group stage or what?


A 20 team group stage should work like this (not saying it would, I don't make the call):

4 groups, 5 teams per group.

Reasonable seed allocation with the expectation that the Top 4 teams will be the #1 finishers in each group, roughly equal team quality in each group, practical balancing of divisons/conferences based on some coherent way of thinking.

Each team in a group plays each other once (4 games total), or possibly twice (8 games).

The top two finishers in each group advance. All #1 finishers play #2 finishers from another group.

Regardless of conference structure, the league quarterfinals, semifinals, and finals have a 7 game structure that follows tradition as well as possible.

I can go into more specifics coming up with a way to allocate teams if there's interest, but there's more than one way to do it.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2264 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jun 2, 2020 9:07 pm

The main problem with group stage I’ve seen brought up is the team that gets eliminated early packs it in their last few games, and then a team gets screwed over cause someone else got a free win. Especially in this situation who knows if the star just goes home after they have no chance.

I’m ok with just having some play-tournament for the 7th and 8th spots. You could also start off with a fun single game elimination game between Pelicans and Kings for the right to be the 10th seed.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2265 » by eminence » Tue Jun 2, 2020 9:17 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:It may produce exciting games and I'm sure I'll watch them, so they'll get there way.

But yep, still 100% against anything larger than just inviting the top 8 in each conference.

The bit about a 20 team group stage doesn't even make sense to me, are the top two seeds getting a buy from the group stage or what?


A 20 team group stage should work like this (not saying it would, I don't make the call):

4 groups, 5 teams per group.

Reasonable seed allocation with the expectation that the Top 4 teams will be the #1 finishers in each group, roughly equal team quality in each group, practical balancing of divisons/conferences based on some coherent way of thinking.

Each team in a group plays each other once (4 games total), or possibly twice (8 games).

The top two finishers in each group advance. All #1 finishers play #2 finishers from another group.

Regardless of conference structure, the league quarterfinals, semifinals, and finals have a 7 game structure that follows tradition as well as possible.

I can go into more specifics coming up with a way to allocate teams if there's interest, but there's more than one way to do it.


Oh, I was thinking along those lines too, I just got the impression they were talking about 22 teams total and a 20 team group stage at the same time and was... "where'd the other two teams go?"

Reading through it again I think I was off, though I am curious as to what a 22 team format will be if that's really the #.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2266 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 2, 2020 10:10 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:The main problem with group stage I’ve seen brought up is the team that gets eliminated early packs it in their last few games, and then a team gets screwed over cause someone else got a free win. Especially in this situation who knows if the star just goes home after they have no chance.

I’m ok with just having some play-tournament for the 7th and 8th spots. You could also start off with a fun single game elimination game between Pelicans and Kings for the right to be the 10th seed.


If they're only playing 4 games I think this would actually be better than normal (how many series did Shaq get swept?).

You're right though that if they're playing 8 games this may be a problem.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2267 » by RCM88x » Wed Jun 3, 2020 2:54 pm

I hate the group stage idea, its lame in soccer, it would be lame here. I'd much rather them just do a best of 3 play in tournament for the 8th seeds, or something along those lines.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2268 » by Homer38 » Wed Jun 3, 2020 6:11 pm

What do you think of the format when the NBA will return?

I am just happy that it will not be a group stage,it would been a awful idea.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2269 » by MO12msu » Wed Jun 3, 2020 6:15 pm

Not sure what the point of the play-in tournament is when they’re gonna be playing regular season games.

Other than that this seems fine. Although I’m not sure this is necessarily the most “safe” format for return, but we know money was probably just as big of a factor.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2270 » by bondom34 » Wed Jun 3, 2020 6:28 pm

Hollinger said it, but it's a plan only a committee could approve. Tries to make everyone happy and ends up making nobody really happy. Doesn't accomplish safety or bringing back all teams, and instead of having meaningless (mostly) end of season games for the bottom 8 teams they have meaningless (mostly) end of season games for top teams vs teams scraping to get slaughtered in round 1.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2271 » by ardee » Wed Jun 3, 2020 8:01 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ardee wrote:https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258314/NBA-Moving-To-Complete-Details-Of-22-Team-Resumption-Of-Season

Please don't tell me this is going to be that godforsaken group stage idea. Judging by the fact it's 5 extra West teams and 1 East team, it seems that is the likely scenario. Good way to discredit the champion of this year even further than most people already will under the circumstances.


Okay I'm gonna get salty here:

1. I think a round robin first round is a good idea for sports in general if the alternative is something as godawful as the current NBA 1st round, and I feel like people aren't thinking about this. Folks, everyone hates the first round. It's a waste of everyone's time to see some 39 win team get blown out again and again by a real team, even worse when the real team just coasts through the round. If we're not going to skip to the top 8 teams, I'd support this change period. Much more interesting to see a variety of matchups in the first round, and it's long added excitement to the World Cup and the Olympics in various sports.

2. I think people need to shut up about asterisks. All you're doing is discrediting the work done by the athletes whose work you care about. The fact that a given year is different can make it special - a bit like winning a F1 race in rough weather shows true skill - but if enough NBA fans convince the world it's crap, the world will tune out and the players will blow it off.

(I respect Phil Jackson in general but HATE what he's done to the '99 Spurs with his asterisk talk. That was pure self-aggrandizement that nobody in the entire world should have been stupid enough to fall for, but 20 years later, here we f-ing are.)

Finally on the pure practicalities of the situation:

The NBA is thinking about how to get more teams involved without forcing a continuation of the regular season. Getting more teams involved gets more fanbases involved which adds to the excitement. It makes sense in a situation where you're concerned that half of NBA fans just won't bother tuning back in.

And just to go back to it: I don't want to hear anyone defend allowing 16 teams in as if that's not "letting everybody in" but bash adding a few more teams in (while reducing the amount they play against one team). The 16th best team is crap. Nobody has every cared about it. I'm totally fine with anyone who basically doesn't watch the first round every year and decries it as a shameless money grab.

But if you're going to accept the 1st round in general, the stuff they are talking about now is nothing to get outraged about. What the NBA wanted to do was re-start the regular season, but everybody sane told them that was a horrible idea, so this is them trying to activate re-engagement before the real playoffs (aka Conference Semi-Finals) starts the best way they can. The odds of it changing the champion is quite small, and if you lose in the round robin, you don't deserve the championship period.

/rant

I apologize for my overly harsh words. They are not anything I wish to rationally defend, I'm just sick of the cynicism I smell everywhere right now.
Well I will have to disagree because your entire argument is based on the idea that the first round sucks.

It doesn't. Typically the 1-8 matchup is lopsided yes but even those have had classics. The first round is full of iconic moments. Just last year we had Lillard's 50 point game and the series winning buzzer beater.

The first round gave us the 2009 Bulls-Celtics series. It gave us the 2011 Mavs-Blazers series. The entire 2014 first round was one of the most exciting two weeks of basketball I've ever seen.

And if we have a lopsided series, think about the fan of the winning team. It's a morale boost to see your team play its best basketball and decimate another team.

Idk why the hate for the first round exists because it's not as if anyone is forced to watch every series. You always get at least 2 competitive series', and that alone is half as much basketball as a theoretical 20 team group stage. With a good chance of more.

My philosophy is simple: more basketball is better, especially now.

As for the asterisk thing.... I certainly won't be putting one on the champion, especially since it could be my team. But there are going to be people out there doing that and I don't want that to happen to any champion. If you are rooting for LeBron to be consensus GOAT, for example, you want to give everyone less opportunities to quibble about his accomplishments.

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2272 » by bondom34 » Thu Jun 4, 2020 1:08 am

Ultimately some put an asterisk on every championship. It's stupid, but its tradition.

That said, the 22 team thing is just such a blatant attempt to get someone in over Memphis and I'm not one for conspiracies but it doesn't even seem like they're trying to hide wanting Zion or Lillard in there.

I wasn't a fan of the group stage, but tbh you could probably sell me depending on the setup, the way I'd heard it was not something I'd like, but it might just have been the explanation/groupings.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2273 » by Joey Wheeler » Thu Jun 4, 2020 6:56 am

Seems like too much unnecessary trouble to find out which 8th seeded team is going to get swept by Lebron and AD in the 1st round, but I'll take all the basketball I can get.

Anyway, regardless of the format, I don't think much will change, I'm still expecting the Lakers to mostly sweep their way through the playoffs. I think the Rockets are the only team who could potentially take make it a bit of a series against them, assuming Lebron and AD are healthy of course.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2274 » by MisterHibachi » Thu Jun 4, 2020 12:17 pm

Ultimately it's a good thing we're not jumping right back into the playoffs first game back. A regular season ramp up is the best route imo.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2275 » by RCM88x » Thu Jun 4, 2020 8:36 pm

I am the only one that feels like AD's DPOY candidacy is complete hogwash? I struggle to find a single statistical argument for him to win the award, let alone a convincing one he's even the most valuable defensive player on the Lakers.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2276 » by ardee » Fri Jun 5, 2020 12:01 am

So they have a one week training camp... then fly to Orlando and sit on their asses in quarantine for 3 weeks and become deconditioned again?

Why not just get there, quarantine and let everyone have their training camps in Orlando? Don't get it.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2277 » by MisterHibachi » Fri Jun 5, 2020 2:23 am

ardee wrote:So they have a one week training camp... then fly to Orlando and sit on their asses in quarantine for 3 weeks and become deconditioned again?

Why not just get there, quarantine and let everyone have their training camps in Orlando? Don't get it.


I would assume they're training during quarantine?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2278 » by ardee » Fri Jun 5, 2020 7:15 am

MisterHibachi wrote:
ardee wrote:So they have a one week training camp... then fly to Orlando and sit on their asses in quarantine for 3 weeks and become deconditioned again?

Why not just get there, quarantine and let everyone have their training camps in Orlando? Don't get it.


I would assume they're training during quarantine?
On their own in an isolated hotel room?

I can't imagine they're allowed to gather as a team to do anything in those 3 weeks because that would defeat the purpose of quarantine.

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2279 » by Clyde Frazier » Fri Jun 5, 2020 4:58 pm

bondom34 wrote:Ultimately some put an asterisk on every championship. It's stupid, but its tradition.

That said, the 22 team thing is just such a blatant attempt to get someone in over Memphis and I'm not one for conspiracies but it doesn't even seem like they're trying to hide wanting Zion or Lillard in there.

I wasn't a fan of the group stage, but tbh you could probably sell me depending on the setup, the way I'd heard it was not something I'd like, but it might just have been the explanation/groupings.


Yeah my gut reaction was "the NBA has no shame in wanting zion in the playoffs." I mean i'm happy to have the NBA back and kinda numb to everything right now, so i don't really "care", but it's pretty blatant.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2280 » by penbeast0 » Sat Jun 6, 2020 11:04 pm

Sure it wasn't a desperate desire to get the Wizards into the playoffs? They are the 22nd best team after all. And who wouldn't want Bradley Beal and, well, whoever else we throw out there, to do well.
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