2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3421 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:35 am

Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
They've blown 3 straight double digit leads.

The minimum expectation would be to not blow leads constantly.

This is kawhi's first playoffs withotu a 60 win team and he's much better defensivelt and as a playmaker.

Not sure how you see this and don't question the hype he's been getting over his last postseasons.



KD was a better player than kawhi last year 8-)

KD's better than kawhi at stat padding vs **** defences, I'll give you that.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3422 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:40 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
They've blown 3 straight double digit leads.

The minimum expectation would be to not blow leads constantly.

This is kawhi's first playoffs withotu a 60 win team and he's much better defensivelt and as a playmaker.

Not sure how you see this and don't question the hype he's been getting over his last postseasons.



I mean its not as if he was utterly horrible and exposed or anything like 18 harden or 19 giannis

Harden was playing the best defense of his era. Giannis didn't have 60 win teammates and both came close to winning against superior casts. Don't really think the box stats justify treating kawhi differently. choke or not, giannis's defense was good enough they almost beat a better team.

He had 2 bad games and was pretty standard for 4 and great for 1. The clippers went 0 iq on offense at times and the team outside of kawhi were quite bad.

Kawhi isnt THE system like other stars are. Yes he is the main offensice superstar but the team is kind of a three headed dragon offensicely in that you have kawhi george and lou taking most possessions. The other two were dissappinting, either in their overall offense (lou) or their ability to create (george).
\

Iow, he's has a lesser role, and he still choked? bad look.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3423 » by Dupp » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:46 am

0 points in the last quarter is rough. PG and kawhi combined fit 5 in the second half..
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3424 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:46 am

freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:This is kawhi's first playoffs withotu a 60 win team and he's much better defensivelt and as a playmaker.

Not sure how you see this and don't question the hype he's been getting over his last postseasons.



I mean its not as if he was utterly horrible and exposed or anything like 18 harden or 19 giannis

Harden was playing the best defense of his era. Giannis didn't have 60 win teammates and both came close to winning against superior casts. Don't really think the box stats justify treating kawhi differently. choke or not, giannis's defense was good enough they almost beat a better team.

He had 2 bad games and was pretty standard for 4 and great for 1. The clippers went 0 iq on offense at times and the team outside of kawhi were quite bad.

Kawhi isnt THE system like other stars are. Yes he is the main offensice superstar but the team is kind of a three headed dragon offensicely in that you have kawhi george and lou taking most possessions. The other two were dissappinting, either in their overall offense (lou) or their ability to create (george).
\

Iow, he's has a lesser role, and he still choked? bad look.


Kawhis not in a lesser role so much as hes in a different one, the hypercharged 5 out offenses built around one star only apply to playoff 2018 cavs bron, giannis and harden

Its pretty clear offensively he was better than 18 harden or 19 giannis.

2018 harden was like an utter choke job idk why anyone tries to defend that performance, he literally was playjng the same role as per usual and sucked. 2019 giannis both showed his limitations on offense

We didnt learn anything new about kawhi this series other than he had a mediocre series, it wasnt an absurd choke he had 2 bad games the entire series lol
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3425 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:



I mean its not as if he was utterly horrible and exposed or anything like 18 harden or 19 giannis

Harden was playing the best defense of his era. Giannis didn't have 60 win teammates and both came close to winning against superior casts. Don't really think the box stats justify treating kawhi differently. choke or not, giannis's defense was good enough they almost beat a better team.

He had 2 bad games and was pretty standard for 4 and great for 1. The clippers went 0 iq on offense at times and the team outside of kawhi were quite bad.

Kawhi isnt THE system like other stars are. Yes he is the main offensice superstar but the team is kind of a three headed dragon offensicely in that you have kawhi george and lou taking most possessions. The other two were dissappinting, either in their overall offense (lou) or their ability to create (george).
\

Iow, he's has a lesser role, and he still choked? bad look.


Kawhis not in a lesser role so much as hes in a different one, the hypercharged 5 out offenses built around one star only apply to playoff 2018 cavs bron, giannis and harden

Its pretty clear offensively he was better than 18 harden or 19 giannis.

2018 harden was like an utter choke job idk why anyone tries to defend that performance, he literally was playjng the same role as per usual and sucked. 2019 giannis both showed his limitations on offense

We didnt learn anything new about kawhi this series other than he had a mediocre series, it wasnt an absurd choke he had 2 bad games the entire series lol

Thisis the first playoffs eh wasn't on a stacked ass team, and he could have easily gotten knocked out in the first round and got clapped in the second. how we leanr nothing?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3426 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm

Another huge overreaction, as usual ;)

Kawhi played poorly in last games and he got outplayed by Jokic. It doesn't make him much worse than we thought he was, he's still elite player. Some people simply used very premature comparisons to Jordan, LeBron, Duncan or Kareem and it made Kawhi being a bit overrated historically (he's not close to top 30 player ever and he's not top 10 player ever for a peak either). It doesn't automatically make him outside of top 5.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3427 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:47 pm

freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:

Harden was playing the best defense of his era. Giannis didn't have 60 win teammates and both came close to winning against superior casts. Don't really think the box stats justify treating kawhi differently. choke or not, giannis's defense was good enough they almost beat a better team.


Iow, he's has a lesser role, and he still choked? bad look.


Kawhis not in a lesser role so much as hes in a different one, the hypercharged 5 out offenses built around one star only apply to playoff 2018 cavs bron, giannis and harden

Its pretty clear offensively he was better than 18 harden or 19 giannis.

2018 harden was like an utter choke job idk why anyone tries to defend that performance, he literally was playjng the same role as per usual and sucked. 2019 giannis both showed his limitations on offense

We didnt learn anything new about kawhi this series other than he had a mediocre series, it wasnt an absurd choke he had 2 bad games the entire series lol

Thisis the first playoffs eh wasn't on a stacked ass team, and he could have easily gotten knocked out in the first round and got clapped in the second. how we leanr nothing?


Because you have to analyze his performance not the team performance.

Like if kawhi as an individual plays well, and his team doesnt, thats not an indicator that kawhi didnt play well.

Results matter, and i am someone that gives players an abritrary plus if they win a championship because i feel as a goal there deserves to be some sort of reward

But if we breakdown how kawhi himself played, he was pretty much fantastic in series 1 and mediocre in series 2

So did we learn anything about kawhis weaknesses or playstyles that hold him back?

Not really, it just looked like: kawhi had a good series 1 and a mediocre series 2.

Is he at fault to an extent because he didnt have a great series and the clippers lost? Sure.

But was it a disaster to the level of 2018 harden, or did it show a huge limitation he has that we didnt see as cleary or know about?

Not really. At least on court

Kawhi is a elite iso and post scorer who is good at scoring and playmaking off the pick and roll. He doesnt run in a system where the majority or all the offense is based off of this, but those are his two strengths and hes very, very good at them.

Nothing in this series really changed that perception of him. In 4/7 games he was average, in 1 he was great, 2 he sucked.

His playmaking was on point for the most part

Now as for what went wrong/why they lost, i do think at this point maybe you can point to off court issues

This clippers team IS stacked as hell but they have the worst chemistry in the nba. Theyve played around 20 games with a full healthy roster, not to mention that imagine after that 2019 year fihting tooth and nail against the defending champs bringing them to 6 when ur supposed to get swept, you see half your team get traded and the new two guys handed the keys, and neither show any leadership they sit out games and just arent chemistry guys and keep to themselves

Add on other things like how they clearly arent in shape, when you have multiple players asking to sit out in a GAME 7 FOURTH QUARTER

Kawhi doesnt monopolize the offense as much as guys like luka and harden do. He gets his points but they run alot of action and offense without kawhi as the primary ball handler, i mean theyre most used play is probably the lue and harrell pick and roll although for some reason they didnt do that even tho it as much as they should have which would have probably done wonders against the nuggets particularly.

Does he play a larger role in the offense than guys that do? No, but thats theyre playstyle.

I mean the clippers lost because they were outcoached, outhustled, and honestly didnt have the chemistry to come together under situations like this.

I mean we have to look at what happened in the game. Besides the clippers just not running an offense in the second half and not even running pick and rolls despite that working wel foe them, what else happened?

Well, i would say that while they were sub par offensivey, outsid eof game 7 they werent disasterous although obviously they dissapointed and went through cold streaks.

And credit to the nuggets, but would you say that the nuggets dominated a top 3 defense?

From a process standpoint the clippers played like a bottom 10 defense this series, and really last series too, undispiplined, miscommunications, misrotarions, and just a lack of hustle and effort, not to mention weird coaching decisions.

(They really went this game, alright instead of playing zubac, a good post defender, lets llay harrel for offense, double the BEST PLAYMAKING BIG EVER every possession but not commit that hard, not rotate and NOT USE HARREL ON P AND R OFFENSE)

I think there are valid criticisms of kawhis leadership, how he approached the season, etc.

By all means this clippers team is at the level or better than those spurs and raptors teams, without kawhi, from a talent perspective.

But he raptors and spurs teams are high continuity, high chemsitry teams with vets that have experience and maturity, along with legendary coaching or COY coaching.

This clippers team is not, and i do think kawhis approach to the season might be a reason why the clippers folded, both off and on the court. I mean lou is really talking about chemistry right now after a whole season

But my opinion of Kawhi as a player hasnt changed at all, i dont think the fact that he doesnt play in a 5 out system where hes running everything is a knock on him, especially since in terms of ability (not sure with stamina but i mean he plays defense lol) but i do think there are criticisms about the way he approached the season
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3428 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:59 pm

70sFan wrote:Another huge overreaction, as usual ;)

Kawhi played poorly in last games and he got outplayed by Jokic. It doesn't make him much worse than we thought he was, he's still elite player. Some people simply used very premature comparisons to Jordan, LeBron, Duncan or Kareem and it made Kawhi being a bit overrated historically (he's not close to top 30 player ever and he's not top 10 player ever for a peak either). It doesn't automatically make him outside of top 5.


I think it is interesting to think of kawhis peak which will prolly be whenever he has a good playoff run.

I do think kawhi is up there in the defensive part of the top all time superstar offensive wings, but i do think his offense isnt at that standard.

I mean i know im higher on kobe than most but I fully view kawhi as an almost strictly inferior version of kobe on offense, strength and maybe finishing (altho i dont think stats at the rim arent enough for it to be definitive because all the other factors) and i do think overall its a significant gap. Otoh i do think kawhi would be able to fo similar things as harden or luka in those systems to an extent (meaninf he would be able to be a driving force on an offense and strategy built solely around him) from a ability standpoint, and the offense with kawhi thisbyear was the best in the league
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3429 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:02 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Kawhis not in a lesser role so much as hes in a different one, the hypercharged 5 out offenses built around one star only apply to playoff 2018 cavs bron, giannis and harden

Its pretty clear offensively he was better than 18 harden or 19 giannis.

2018 harden was like an utter choke job idk why anyone tries to defend that performance, he literally was playjng the same role as per usual and sucked. 2019 giannis both showed his limitations on offense

We didnt learn anything new about kawhi this series other than he had a mediocre series, it wasnt an absurd choke he had 2 bad games the entire series lol

Thisis the first playoffs eh wasn't on a stacked ass team, and he could have easily gotten knocked out in the first round and got clapped in the second. how we leanr nothing?


Because you have to analyze his performance not the team performance.

Like if kawhi as an individual plays well, and his team doesnt, thats not an indicator that kawhi didnt play well.

Results matter, and i am someone that gives players an abritrary plus if they win a championship because i feel as a goal there deserves to be some sort of reward

But if we breakdown how kawhi himself played, he was pretty much fantastic in series 1 and mediocre in series 2

So did we learn anything about kawhis weaknesses or playstyles that hold him back?

Not really, it just looked like: kawhi had a good series 1 and a mediocre series 2.

Is he at fault to an extent because he didnt have a great series and the clippers lost? Sure.

But was it a disaster to the level of 2018 harden, or did it show a huge limitation he has that we didnt see as cleary or know about?

Not really. At least on court

Kawhi is a elite iso and post scorer who is good at scoring and playmaking off the pick and roll. He doesnt run in a system where the majority or all the offense is based off of this, but those are his two strengths and hes very, very good at them.

Nothing in this series really changed that perception of him. In 4/7 games he was average, in 1 he was great, 2 he sucked.

His playmaking was on point for the most part

Now as for what went wrong/why they lost, i do think at this point maybe you can point to off court issues

This clippers team IS stacked as hell but they have the worst chemistry in the nba. Theyve played around 20 games with a full healthy roster, not to mention that imagine after that 2019 year fihting tooth and nail against the defending champs bringing them to 6 when ur supposed to get swept, you see half your team get traded and the new two guys handed the keys, and neither show any leadership they sit out games and just arent chemistry guys and keep to themselves

Add on other things like how they clearly arent in shape, when you have multiple players asking to sit out in a GAME 7 FOURTH QUARTER

Kawhi doesnt monopolize the offense as much as guys like luka and harden do. He gets his points but they run alot of action and offense without kawhi as the primary ball handler, i mean theyre most used play is probably the lue and harrell pick and roll although for some reason they didnt do that even tho it as much as they should have which would have probably done wonders against the nuggets particularly.

Does he play a larger role in the offense than guys that do? No, but thats theyre playstyle.

I mean the clippers lost because they were outcoached, outhustled, and honestly didnt have the chemistry to come together under situations like this.

I mean we have to look at what happened in the game. Besides the clippers just not running an offense in the second half and not even running pick and rolls despite that working wel foe them, what else happened?

Well, i would say that while they were sub par offensivey, outsid eof game 7 they werent disasterous although obviously they dissapointed and went through cold streaks.

And credit to the nuggets, but would you say that the nuggets dominated a top 3 defense?

From a process standpoint the clippers played like a bottom 10 defense this series, and really last series too, undispiplined, miscommunications, misrotarions, and just a lack of hustle and effort, not to mention weird coaching decisions.

(They really went this game, alright instead of playing zubac, a good post defender, lets llay harrel for offense, double the BEST PLAYMAKING BIG EVER every possession but not commit that hard, not rotate and NOT USE HARREL ON P AND R OFFENSE)

I think there are valid criticisms of kawhis leadership, how he approached the season, etc.

By all means this clippers team is at the level or better than those spurs and raptors teams, without kawhi, from a talent perspective.

But he raptors and spurs teams are high continuity, high chemsitry teams with vets that have experience and maturity, along with legendary coaching or COY coaching.

This clippers team is not, and i do think kawhis approach to the season might be a reason why the clippers folded, both off and on the court. I mean lou is really talking about chemistry right now after a whole season

But my opinion of Kawhi as a player hasnt changed at all, i dont think the fact that he doesnt play in a 5 out system where hes running everything is a knock on him, especially since in terms of ability (not sure with stamina but i mean he plays defense lol) but i do think there are criticisms about the way he approached the season

you have to look at things at holistically as well as just granular film/box stuff

Kawhi is a much better player this season thann last season defensively and playmaking. Sp if this version of kawhi i's teamis udnerperofming, it begs the question just how impactful he is when he's "playing well" like he was with the raptors despite being worse.

On eclear takeaway for example, given how much better hsi defense was this year, is that kawhi's elite perimiter defense is kinda meaningless without a top tier rim protector.

Given how much his temmates struggled, it also begs the question just how much kawhi's assists are worth.

Players can superficially "play good" without being as valuable, and this playoff run indicates that, just like kd, the same seems true for kawhi.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3430 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:30 pm

freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Thisis the first playoffs eh wasn't on a stacked ass team, and he could have easily gotten knocked out in the first round and got clapped in the second. how we leanr nothing?


Because you have to analyze his performance not the team performance.

Like if kawhi as an individual plays well, and his team doesnt, thats not an indicator that kawhi didnt play well.

Results matter, and i am someone that gives players an abritrary plus if they win a championship because i feel as a goal there deserves to be some sort of reward

But if we breakdown how kawhi himself played, he was pretty much fantastic in series 1 and mediocre in series 2

So did we learn anything about kawhis weaknesses or playstyles that hold him back?

Not really, it just looked like: kawhi had a good series 1 and a mediocre series 2.

Is he at fault to an extent because he didnt have a great series and the clippers lost? Sure.

But was it a disaster to the level of 2018 harden, or did it show a huge limitation he has that we didnt see as cleary or know about?

Not really. At least on court

Kawhi is a elite iso and post scorer who is good at scoring and playmaking off the pick and roll. He doesnt run in a system where the majority or all the offense is based off of this, but those are his two strengths and hes very, very good at them.

Nothing in this series really changed that perception of him. In 4/7 games he was average, in 1 he was great, 2 he sucked.

His playmaking was on point for the most part

Now as for what went wrong/why they lost, i do think at this point maybe you can point to off court issues

This clippers team IS stacked as hell but they have the worst chemistry in the nba. Theyve played around 20 games with a full healthy roster, not to mention that imagine after that 2019 year fihting tooth and nail against the defending champs bringing them to 6 when ur supposed to get swept, you see half your team get traded and the new two guys handed the keys, and neither show any leadership they sit out games and just arent chemistry guys and keep to themselves

Add on other things like how they clearly arent in shape, when you have multiple players asking to sit out in a GAME 7 FOURTH QUARTER

Kawhi doesnt monopolize the offense as much as guys like luka and harden do. He gets his points but they run alot of action and offense without kawhi as the primary ball handler, i mean theyre most used play is probably the lue and harrell pick and roll although for some reason they didnt do that even tho it as much as they should have which would have probably done wonders against the nuggets particularly.

Does he play a larger role in the offense than guys that do? No, but thats theyre playstyle.

I mean the clippers lost because they were outcoached, outhustled, and honestly didnt have the chemistry to come together under situations like this.

I mean we have to look at what happened in the game. Besides the clippers just not running an offense in the second half and not even running pick and rolls despite that working wel foe them, what else happened?

Well, i would say that while they were sub par offensivey, outsid eof game 7 they werent disasterous although obviously they dissapointed and went through cold streaks.

And credit to the nuggets, but would you say that the nuggets dominated a top 3 defense?

From a process standpoint the clippers played like a bottom 10 defense this series, and really last series too, undispiplined, miscommunications, misrotarions, and just a lack of hustle and effort, not to mention weird coaching decisions.

(They really went this game, alright instead of playing zubac, a good post defender, lets llay harrel for offense, double the BEST PLAYMAKING BIG EVER every possession but not commit that hard, not rotate and NOT USE HARREL ON P AND R OFFENSE)

I think there are valid criticisms of kawhis leadership, how he approached the season, etc.

By all means this clippers team is at the level or better than those spurs and raptors teams, without kawhi, from a talent perspective.

But he raptors and spurs teams are high continuity, high chemsitry teams with vets that have experience and maturity, along with legendary coaching or COY coaching.

This clippers team is not, and i do think kawhis approach to the season might be a reason why the clippers folded, both off and on the court. I mean lou is really talking about chemistry right now after a whole season

But my opinion of Kawhi as a player hasnt changed at all, i dont think the fact that he doesnt play in a 5 out system where hes running everything is a knock on him, especially since in terms of ability (not sure with stamina but i mean he plays defense lol) but i do think there are criticisms about the way he approached the season

you have to look at things at holistically as well as just granular film/box stuff

Kawhi is a much better player this season thann last season defensively and playmaking. Sp if this version of kawhi i's teamis udnerperofming, it begs the question just how impactful he is when he's "playing well" like he was with the raptors despite being worse.

On eclear takeaway for example, given how much better hsi defense was this year, is that kawhi's elite perimiter defense is kinda meaningless without a top tier rim protector.

Given how much his temmates struggled, it also begs the question just how much kawhi's assists are worth.

Players can superficially "play good" without being as valuable, and this playoff run indicates that, just like kd, the same seems true for kawhi.


But they didnt underperform because of kawhi. Thats the point

The defense part doesnt make sense, unless we are talking from an overall sense since perimeter defenders cant cover for other guys mistakes and its easier to switch now than before, if ur a perimeter defender and ur entire team is simultaneously sucking on D ur not gonna do much

Kawhi is an incredible offensive llayer that didnt play hreat but was mostly failed by those around him including his coach, although some of this isnprolly from his and the teams off the court stuff

That doesnt invalidate the impact hes had when he does play well

The only reason to assume otherwise is if playoff basketball or matchups showed a weakness that can be wxploited, like giannis with kickouts and more half court, curry with switchiness, etc etc, but none of these applied

The assists argument doesnt make sense

People overcomplicate playmaking esp modern day

Its essentially 1. Can you spot weaknesses in the D and 2. Do you make the right reads and passes on time and 3. Are you a versatile passer and dont turn it over alot

Kawhi does these things, not to the same level as somenother guys but hes somehwere betweeb elite and solid

Also an extra thing on passing, as far as im concerned, if a guy is giving more high value assists, is a more versatile passer, and is good at not turning it over on the pass, generates good looks for his teammates, and makes the right reads/isnt assist hunting, as far as im concerned hes a better passer

Kawhis not a savant like lebron in he almost always picks the rifht option but hes good at this.

Idk what u saying about kd lol kd a god
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3431 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:40 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Because you have to analyze his performance not the team performance.

Like if kawhi as an individual plays well, and his team doesnt, thats not an indicator that kawhi didnt play well.

Results matter, and i am someone that gives players an abritrary plus if they win a championship because i feel as a goal there deserves to be some sort of reward

But if we breakdown how kawhi himself played, he was pretty much fantastic in series 1 and mediocre in series 2

So did we learn anything about kawhis weaknesses or playstyles that hold him back?

Not really, it just looked like: kawhi had a good series 1 and a mediocre series 2.

Is he at fault to an extent because he didnt have a great series and the clippers lost? Sure.

But was it a disaster to the level of 2018 harden, or did it show a huge limitation he has that we didnt see as cleary or know about?

Not really. At least on court

Kawhi is a elite iso and post scorer who is good at scoring and playmaking off the pick and roll. He doesnt run in a system where the majority or all the offense is based off of this, but those are his two strengths and hes very, very good at them.

Nothing in this series really changed that perception of him. In 4/7 games he was average, in 1 he was great, 2 he sucked.

His playmaking was on point for the most part

Now as for what went wrong/why they lost, i do think at this point maybe you can point to off court issues

This clippers team IS stacked as hell but they have the worst chemistry in the nba. Theyve played around 20 games with a full healthy roster, not to mention that imagine after that 2019 year fihting tooth and nail against the defending champs bringing them to 6 when ur supposed to get swept, you see half your team get traded and the new two guys handed the keys, and neither show any leadership they sit out games and just arent chemistry guys and keep to themselves

Add on other things like how they clearly arent in shape, when you have multiple players asking to sit out in a GAME 7 FOURTH QUARTER

Kawhi doesnt monopolize the offense as much as guys like luka and harden do. He gets his points but they run alot of action and offense without kawhi as the primary ball handler, i mean theyre most used play is probably the lue and harrell pick and roll although for some reason they didnt do that even tho it as much as they should have which would have probably done wonders against the nuggets particularly.

Does he play a larger role in the offense than guys that do? No, but thats theyre playstyle.

I mean the clippers lost because they were outcoached, outhustled, and honestly didnt have the chemistry to come together under situations like this.

I mean we have to look at what happened in the game. Besides the clippers just not running an offense in the second half and not even running pick and rolls despite that working wel foe them, what else happened?

Well, i would say that while they were sub par offensivey, outsid eof game 7 they werent disasterous although obviously they dissapointed and went through cold streaks.

And credit to the nuggets, but would you say that the nuggets dominated a top 3 defense?

From a process standpoint the clippers played like a bottom 10 defense this series, and really last series too, undispiplined, miscommunications, misrotarions, and just a lack of hustle and effort, not to mention weird coaching decisions.

(They really went this game, alright instead of playing zubac, a good post defender, lets llay harrel for offense, double the BEST PLAYMAKING BIG EVER every possession but not commit that hard, not rotate and NOT USE HARREL ON P AND R OFFENSE)

I think there are valid criticisms of kawhis leadership, how he approached the season, etc.

By all means this clippers team is at the level or better than those spurs and raptors teams, without kawhi, from a talent perspective.

But he raptors and spurs teams are high continuity, high chemsitry teams with vets that have experience and maturity, along with legendary coaching or COY coaching.

This clippers team is not, and i do think kawhis approach to the season might be a reason why the clippers folded, both off and on the court. I mean lou is really talking about chemistry right now after a whole season

But my opinion of Kawhi as a player hasnt changed at all, i dont think the fact that he doesnt play in a 5 out system where hes running everything is a knock on him, especially since in terms of ability (not sure with stamina but i mean he plays defense lol) but i do think there are criticisms about the way he approached the season

you have to look at things at holistically as well as just granular film/box stuff

Kawhi is a much better player this season thann last season defensively and playmaking. Sp if this version of kawhi i's teamis udnerperofming, it begs the question just how impactful he is when he's "playing well" like he was with the raptors despite being worse.

On eclear takeaway for example, given how much better hsi defense was this year, is that kawhi's elite perimiter defense is kinda meaningless without a top tier rim protector.

Given how much his temmates struggled, it also begs the question just how much kawhi's assists are worth.

Players can superficially "play good" without being as valuable, and this playoff run indicates that, just like kd, the same seems true for kawhi.


But they didnt underperform because of kawhi. Thats the point

The defense part doesnt make sense, unless we are talking from an overall sense since perimeter defenders cant cover for other guys mistakes and its easier to switch now than before, if ur a perimeter defender and ur entire team is simultaneously sucking on D ur not gonna do much

Kawhi is an incredible offensive llayer that didnt play hreat but was mostly failed by those around him including his coach, although some of this isnprolly from his and the teams off the court stuff

That doesnt invalidate the impact hes had when he does play well

The only reason to assume otherwise is if playoff basketball or matchups showed a weakness that can be wxploited, like giannis with kickouts and more half court, curry with switchiness, etc etc, but none of these applied

The assists argument doesnt make sense

People overcomplicate playmaking esp modern day

Its essentially 1. Can you spot weaknesses in the D and 2. Do you make the right reads and passes on time and 3. Are you a versatile passer and dont turn it over alot

Kawhi does these things, not to the same level as somenother guys but hes somehwere betweeb elite and solid

Also an extra thing on passing, as far as im concerned, if a guy is giving more high value assists, is a more versatile passer, and is good at not turning it over on the pass, generates good looks for his teammates, and makes the right reads/isnt assist hunting, as far as im concerned hes a better passer

Kawhis not a savant like lebron in he almost always picks the rifht option but hes good at this.

Idk what u saying about kd lol kd a god

If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


"KD a god".

Dont know about that.

15-17 Westbrook posted a higher playoff aupm. And Westbrook was actually marginal higher in rs pipm and rpm in 16 and 17.

Curry's imapct stats blew out kd in 2017, he had more impact in 2015 than kd has ever had in hsi life, and in 2019 despite playing more against better teams on average and better defenses on average he posted better stuff. Don't even talk to me about the regular season.

Don't see what makes "kd" god like when his impact isn't meaningfully above westbrook, harden, ect. And then on a team level, his team goes 6-4 with, 6-4 without. Pretty clear he's not as good as his box stats suggest.


You say "it doesn't invalidate the impact", but where is this impact you assume coming from. It surely should show up on the team level right? If he's super imapctful on a 60 win team, why didn't they just steamroll everyone? Raptors team played well after the sixers series. At some point you need to look at the forest. Even if the trees look really good, its the forest that matters.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3432 » by eminence » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:51 pm

The-Power wrote:
eminence wrote:In the less trolling section of my posting - How this Nuggets/Clippers series went has made me feel a lot better about Mitchell's 1st round series. I was worried there might be a bit of a fluke feeling to it, but with the Nuggets kinda holding back Kawhi and Murray having another big series I feel a lot better about our performance.

There is a huge difference in performance, though. Versus the Jazz, Murray posted 31/6 on 68% TS in 38 MPG. Versus the Clippers, Murray posted 23/6 on 56% TS in 40 MPG. Murray came through in the end and played well all things considered, but he absolutely torched the Jazz and merely played solid (in terms of statistics) against the Clippers.


I put that down to flow of the individual series. The takeaway for me is that 1st he looked comparable (offensively) to Mitchell, and then he came out and looked sort of comparable to Kawhi as well (in terms of level of offensive play, not style). I find that promising if what I'm hoping for is that Mitchell can consistently be a 2nd tier offensive option in the playoffs (so not LeBron/Nash/etc, but still good and someone you can lean on for offense).
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3433 » by E-Balla » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:54 pm

People let their opinions swing too much. If you didn't overrate Kawhi in the first place you wouldn't be acting like because he had a subpar series he sucks now.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3434 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:54 pm

freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:you have to look at things at holistically as well as just granular film/box stuff

Kawhi is a much better player this season thann last season defensively and playmaking. Sp if this version of kawhi i's teamis udnerperofming, it begs the question just how impactful he is when he's "playing well" like he was with the raptors despite being worse.

On eclear takeaway for example, given how much better hsi defense was this year, is that kawhi's elite perimiter defense is kinda meaningless without a top tier rim protector.

Given how much his temmates struggled, it also begs the question just how much kawhi's assists are worth.

Players can superficially "play good" without being as valuable, and this playoff run indicates that, just like kd, the same seems true for kawhi.


But they didnt underperform because of kawhi. Thats the point

The defense part doesnt make sense, unless we are talking from an overall sense since perimeter defenders cant cover for other guys mistakes and its easier to switch now than before, if ur a perimeter defender and ur entire team is simultaneously sucking on D ur not gonna do much

Kawhi is an incredible offensive llayer that didnt play hreat but was mostly failed by those around him including his coach, although some of this isnprolly from his and the teams off the court stuff

That doesnt invalidate the impact hes had when he does play well

The only reason to assume otherwise is if playoff basketball or matchups showed a weakness that can be wxploited, like giannis with kickouts and more half court, curry with switchiness, etc etc, but none of these applied

The assists argument doesnt make sense

People overcomplicate playmaking esp modern day

Its essentially 1. Can you spot weaknesses in the D and 2. Do you make the right reads and passes on time and 3. Are you a versatile passer and dont turn it over alot

Kawhi does these things, not to the same level as somenother guys but hes somehwere betweeb elite and solid

Also an extra thing on passing, as far as im concerned, if a guy is giving more high value assists, is a more versatile passer, and is good at not turning it over on the pass, generates good looks for his teammates, and makes the right reads/isnt assist hunting, as far as im concerned hes a better passer

Kawhis not a savant like lebron in he almost always picks the rifht option but hes good at this.

Idk what u saying about kd lol kd a god


If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


"KD a god".

Dont know about that.

15-17 Westbrook posted a higher playoff aupm. And Westbrook was actually marginal higher in rs pipm and rpm in 16 and 17.

Curry's imapct stats blew out kd in 2017, he had more impact in 2015 than kd has ever had in hsi life, and in 2019 despite playing more against better teams on average and better defenses on average he posted better stuff. Don't even talk to me about the regular season.

Don't see what makes "kd" god like when his impact isn't meaningfully above westbrook, harden, ect. And then on a team level, his team goes 6-4 with, 6-4 without. Pretty clear he's not as good as his box stats suggest.


You say "it doesn't invalidate the impact", but where is this impact you assume coming from. It surely should show up on the team level right? If he's super imapctful on a 60 win team, why didn't they just steamroll everyone? Raptors team played well after the sixers series. At some point you need to look at the forest. Even if the trees look really good, its the forest that matters.


I mean diminishing returns are a thing lol. And arent the raptors league average on offense now? And obviously no one is gonna say kawhi isnt a great defender, nurse just be throwing out random crap that works and its funny lol

Idk when i mentioned curry

If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


What?

I saw the idea of box creation and the idea that passing to a guy thats been freed up by a screen not being valuable is dumb as hell lol. I see why some people would like it but playmaking is about Making the right reads

If you make the right reads youve done all you can do. Net temamate effeciency can be stupid noisy, esp if the offense isnt built around a player

Idk what OC is

Kawhi consistently makes the right reads at the right time as a playmaker, not to an elite level vut hes great at it. Thats it period, thats literally all he can do as a playmaker unless you want him to roid up his teammates

Its about the process. The process can but may not lead to the result, to blame kawhi because of random crap happening or something like that over like 4 games is dumb

Like if jokic guards lebron and he shoots 0/4 because he pulled up from three each time and got the look he wanted, and if kawhi guards lebron and bron goes 4/4 made some crazy contested midranger 4 times in a row then that doesnt mean jokic guarded bron better or that kawhi didnt play great D
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3435 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:01 pm

eminence wrote:
The-Power wrote:
eminence wrote:In the less trolling section of my posting - How this Nuggets/Clippers series went has made me feel a lot better about Mitchell's 1st round series. I was worried there might be a bit of a fluke feeling to it, but with the Nuggets kinda holding back Kawhi and Murray having another big series I feel a lot better about our performance.

There is a huge difference in performance, though. Versus the Jazz, Murray posted 31/6 on 68% TS in 38 MPG. Versus the Clippers, Murray posted 23/6 on 56% TS in 40 MPG. Murray came through in the end and played well all things considered, but he absolutely torched the Jazz and merely played solid (in terms of statistics) against the Clippers.


I put that down to flow of the individual series. The takeaway for me is that 1st he looked comparable (offensively) to Mitchell, and then he came out and looked sort of comparable to Kawhi as well (in terms of level of offensive play, not style). I find that promising if what I'm hoping for is that Mitchell can consistently be a 2nd tier offensive option in the playoffs (so not LeBron/Nash/etc, but still good and someone you can lean on for offense).


That 2017 draft was kinda fire lol

Tatum/bam/Fox/isaac/lauri/mitchell/kuz/allen/anouby/white/collins

Not to mention lonzo son of the greatest nba player ever
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3436 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:07 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
But they didnt underperform because of kawhi. Thats the point

The defense part doesnt make sense, unless we are talking from an overall sense since perimeter defenders cant cover for other guys mistakes and its easier to switch now than before, if ur a perimeter defender and ur entire team is simultaneously sucking on D ur not gonna do much

Kawhi is an incredible offensive llayer that didnt play hreat but was mostly failed by those around him including his coach, although some of this isnprolly from his and the teams off the court stuff

That doesnt invalidate the impact hes had when he does play well

The only reason to assume otherwise is if playoff basketball or matchups showed a weakness that can be wxploited, like giannis with kickouts and more half court, curry with switchiness, etc etc, but none of these applied

The assists argument doesnt make sense

People overcomplicate playmaking esp modern day

Its essentially 1. Can you spot weaknesses in the D and 2. Do you make the right reads and passes on time and 3. Are you a versatile passer and dont turn it over alot

Kawhi does these things, not to the same level as somenother guys but hes somehwere betweeb elite and solid

Also an extra thing on passing, as far as im concerned, if a guy is giving more high value assists, is a more versatile passer, and is good at not turning it over on the pass, generates good looks for his teammates, and makes the right reads/isnt assist hunting, as far as im concerned hes a better passer

Kawhis not a savant like lebron in he almost always picks the rifht option but hes good at this.

Idk what u saying about kd lol kd a god


If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


"KD a god".

Dont know about that.

15-17 Westbrook posted a higher playoff aupm. And Westbrook was actually marginal higher in rs pipm and rpm in 16 and 17.

Curry's imapct stats blew out kd in 2017, he had more impact in 2015 than kd has ever had in hsi life, and in 2019 despite playing more against better teams on average and better defenses on average he posted better stuff. Don't even talk to me about the regular season.

Don't see what makes "kd" god like when his impact isn't meaningfully above westbrook, harden, ect. And then on a team level, his team goes 6-4 with, 6-4 without. Pretty clear he's not as good as his box stats suggest.


You say "it doesn't invalidate the impact", but where is this impact you assume coming from. It surely should show up on the team level right? If he's super imapctful on a 60 win team, why didn't they just steamroll everyone? Raptors team played well after the sixers series. At some point you need to look at the forest. Even if the trees look really good, its the forest that matters.


I mean diminishing returns are a thing lol. And arent the raptors league average on offense now? And obviously no one is gonna say kawhi isnt a great defender, nurse just be throwing out random crap that works and its funny lol

Idk when i mentioned curry

If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


What?

I saw the idea of box creation and the idea that passing to a guy thats been freed up by a screen not being valuable is dumb as hell lol. I see why some people would like it but playmaking is about Making the right reads

If you make the right reads youve done all you can do. Net temamate effeciency can be stupid noisy, esp if the offense isnt built around a player

Idk what OC is

Kawhi consistently makes the right reads at the right time as a playmaker, not to an elite level vut hes great at it. Thats it period, thats literally all he can do as a playmaker unless you want him to roid up his teammates

Its about the process. The process can but may not lead to the result, to blame kawhi because of random crap happening or something like that over like 4 games is dumb

Like if jokic guards lebron and he shoots 0/4 because he pulled up from three each time and got the look he wanted, and if kawhi guards lebron and bron goes 4/4 made some crazy contested midranger 4 times in a row then that doesnt mean jokic guarded bron better or that kawhi didnt play great D

1. So you're telling me that when curry draws two defenders at a screen, that can't be as valuable as an assist? Or what about jokic is doubled and there's an extra pass leading to a wide open three. Should that not be counted too? Is kyrie some playmaking god because he averaged as many assists as curry in the regular season? Creation isn't just passing. you can't act like it is. You have to consider the results.

2. Curry's box stats look like **** compared to kd despite being way more valuable. Telling me kd's box stats are empty.

3. Diminishing returns doesn't really apply to okc and westbrook. This obviously isn't just a gsw thing.

4. The process is valuable in that it may lead to results, but its definitely about the results. Yeah matchup matters, but i don't really know the niggets are especially bad. The mavs and nuggets should have been the perfect matchups fo the lcips defense actually. If this is what they're doing against teams without dominant interior scorers, cna you imagine what would happen if they had to play giannis? lebron? ad? embid?

5. But you have to apply that kind of what iffing consistently. Giannis is getting mad **** for looking bad in two games vs BAM. But what if the bucks are in the west and play the clippers. Suddenly Giannis looks like the goat as he makes harrell his bitch and kawhi looks like a choker as the bucks spam high drop coverage with wes matthews and bledsoe.

What if toronto plays the heat instead of the celtics?I think bam and co get 2019 buck'd.

What if lebron and ad had to actually deal with elite rim protectors in the east? Could lebron look subpar vs the rpators?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3437 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:17 pm

freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


"KD a god".

Dont know about that.

15-17 Westbrook posted a higher playoff aupm. And Westbrook was actually marginal higher in rs pipm and rpm in 16 and 17.

Curry's imapct stats blew out kd in 2017, he had more impact in 2015 than kd has ever had in hsi life, and in 2019 despite playing more against better teams on average and better defenses on average he posted better stuff. Don't even talk to me about the regular season.

Don't see what makes "kd" god like when his impact isn't meaningfully above westbrook, harden, ect. And then on a team level, his team goes 6-4 with, 6-4 without. Pretty clear he's not as good as his box stats suggest.


You say "it doesn't invalidate the impact", but where is this impact you assume coming from. It surely should show up on the team level right? If he's super imapctful on a 60 win team, why didn't they just steamroll everyone? Raptors team played well after the sixers series. At some point you need to look at the forest. Even if the trees look really good, its the forest that matters.


I mean diminishing returns are a thing lol. And arent the raptors league average on offense now? And obviously no one is gonna say kawhi isnt a great defender, nurse just be throwing out random crap that works and its funny lol

Idk when i mentioned curry

If anything assists overcomplicates creation. All that really matters is how much more effecient your teammates are with you/without. That's the end goal really. Assists are fairly menaingless compared to things like OC, box creation, and net teammate effiency which actually measure what amtters.


What?

I saw the idea of box creation and the idea that passing to a guy thats been freed up by a screen not being valuable is dumb as hell lol. I see why some people would like it but playmaking is about Making the right reads

If you make the right reads youve done all you can do. Net temamate effeciency can be stupid noisy, esp if the offense isnt built around a player

Idk what OC is

Kawhi consistently makes the right reads at the right time as a playmaker, not to an elite level vut hes great at it. Thats it period, thats literally all he can do as a playmaker unless you want him to roid up his teammates

Its about the process. The process can but may not lead to the result, to blame kawhi because of random crap happening or something like that over like 4 games is dumb

Like if jokic guards lebron and he shoots 0/4 because he pulled up from three each time and got the look he wanted, and if kawhi guards lebron and bron goes 4/4 made some crazy contested midranger 4 times in a row then that doesnt mean jokic guarded bron better or that kawhi didnt play great D

1. So you're telling me that when curry draws two defenders at a screen, that can't be as valuable as an assist? Or what about jokic is doubled and there's an extra pass leading to a wide open three. Should that not be counted too? Is kyrie some playmaking god because he averaged as many assists as curry in the regular season? Creation isn't just passing. you can't act like it is. You have to consider the results.

2. Curry's box stats look like **** compared to kd despite being way more valuable. Telling me kd's box stats are empty.

3. Diminishing returns doesn't really apply to okc and westbrook. This obviously isn't just a gsw thing.

4. The process is valuable in that it may lead to results, but its definitely about the results. Yeah matchup matters, but i don't really know the niggets are especially bad. The mavs and nuggets should have been the perfect matchups fo the lcips defense actually. If this is what they're doing against teams without dominant interior scorers, cna you imagine what would happen if they had to play giannis? lebron? ad? embid?

5. But you have to apply that kind of what iffing consistently. Giannis is getting mad **** for looking bad in two games vs BAM. But what if the bucks are in the west and play the clippers. Suddenly Giannis looks like the goat as he makes harrell his bitch and kawhi looks like a choker as the bucks spam high drop coverage with wes matthews and bledsoe.

What if toronto plays the heat instead of the celtics?I think bam and co get 2019 buck'd.

What if lebron and ad had to actually deal with elite rim protectors in the east? Could lebron look subpar vs the rpators?


Bro im not even talking about durant lol

Kyrie doesnt make the right reads tho lmao thats the point, ur not talking about playmaking anymore.

The process matters because results are based off process + noise.

The clips defense plYed at a bottom ten team level for carious reasons in performance but years from now well look back on it saying that the nuggets destroyed a top 5 defense

The point is with giannis, we saw a ljmitation in his game that we saw last year although not to the same extent.

We saw something wrong with the PROCESS. It wasnt a bad shooting night it was the same weaknesses coming back to haunt him

Basketball is results oriented in the sense that if a guy is hitting shots at a crazy rate youre like he performed. Make or miss league


Analyzing players when they play a mediocre series is PROCESS oriented

We ask WHY was this mediocre, was a weakness unveiledC or did they just have a bad night?

Theres this ridiculous obsession with people not answering why things occur. People end up saying crazy things, like i recall 2017 people were saying that theyd rather dray not play than durant which is stupid as hell lol

Ur point on creation is weird because ur using a niche exmaple with curry and like i dont know what the jokic one is supposed to represent.

If you make the right reads youve done your kob as a playmaker thats pretty much it. Im not saying his assist jumbers are x im saying he makes the right reads. Kyrie doesnt as much.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3438 » by MisterHibachi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:56 pm

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3439 » by Jordan Syndrome » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:11 pm

E-Balla wrote:People let their opinions swing too much. If you didn't overrate Kawhi in the first place you wouldn't be acting like because he had a subpar series he sucks now.


This is a great take and helps people put things into perspective.

People being emotional of Kawhi's ranking were likely people who viewed him as the best or second best but didn't want him to be the best. Now that Kawhi has under performed to the masses standards those same people get to say "I told you so".

Kawhi is a great player but as I have stated numerous times on this site, he isn't a conductor or engine to an offense. Paul George is also not a conductor or engine for an offense and the Clippers had nobody on the team who filled that role.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3440 » by eminence » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:42 pm

The Bucks not going after CP3 is fine enough, but the reasoning focusing on how much he's paid seems like a bad sign.
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