2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3461 » by E-Balla » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:37 pm

RCM88x wrote:FWIW, I'm pretty sure voters get a blank ballot and can write in players at whatever position they choose. Players are placed in whatever position they are most often placed in, and then sorted by total points.

Meaning Lebron gets the forward position because the majority of voters placed him at forward. Davis got the C position because most people placed him at C.

With Davis, I'm betting a lot of voters placed him as their 1st team C because they felt he was better than Jokic, Embiid, Gobert etc... and deserved the 1st team spot more than those guys even though he was more of a PF this year. He had 144 more points than Jokic.
You can kinda tell by the way the voting worked out that the 1st team was more like "5 best" team and positions weren't a big factor.

Cray thing is AD was left off of 1 ballot, Kawhi 2, Jokic 1, Lillard 4. Like how does that make any sense?

Do voters vote all 3 teams or 2 and the league adds up the points?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3462 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:49 pm

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Heej wrote:LETS GOOOOO CP3!!! Murray or Mitchell def knocking Russ out next year. But lol imagine having Gobert over Embiid


I haven't through, but I have to say, the 76ers were a trainwreck this year culturally so it's really not weird to me that people were out on him.

As I say that;

I could have said the same thing about Gobert for anyone bothered by his COVID performance (his best passing of the year). Fine to say that that's not fair, just wouldn't be surprised.

I also get people saying it's weird for Simmons to get the nod over Embiid. Clearly they were in different positions. I'd have been fine with both missing All-NBA.

What 6 guards would've been fine to include over Simmons? You think putting Westbrook and Lowry 3rd team and leaving him out wouldn't be egregious? Because I'd put Simmons clearly over Westbrook right now.


Well, like I said I haven't thought it through really.

If I do a sorting of guards by RS Win Shares - just a quick and dirty metric - I get:

1. Harden
2. Lillard
3. Paul
4. Doncic
5. Booker
6. Lowry

Those are clearly guys who deserve to be All-NBA ahead of Simmons or Westbrook, but of course, the NBA stupidly did not include the Bubble games in the calibration, so picking Simmons or Westbrook ahead of Booker makes sense. But then there's Kemba Walker to consider. I'd definitely give the nod to Walker over Simmons or Westbook. Could make a case for Bradley Beal as well.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3463 » by RCM88x » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 pm

E-Balla wrote:
RCM88x wrote:FWIW, I'm pretty sure voters get a blank ballot and can write in players at whatever position they choose. Players are placed in whatever position they are most often placed in, and then sorted by total points.

Meaning Lebron gets the forward position because the majority of voters placed him at forward. Davis got the C position because most people placed him at C.

With Davis, I'm betting a lot of voters placed him as their 1st team C because they felt he was better than Jokic, Embiid, Gobert etc... and deserved the 1st team spot more than those guys even though he was more of a PF this year. He had 144 more points than Jokic.
You can kinda tell by the way the voting worked out that the 1st team was more like "5 best" team and positions weren't a big factor.

Cray thing is AD was left off of 1 ballot, Kawhi 2, Jokic 1, Lillard 4. Like how does that make any sense?

Do voters vote all 3 teams or 2 and the league adds up the points?


They vote all 3. A 1st team vote is 5 points, 2nd team vote is 3 points, 3rd team vote is 1 point. There are 100 voters.

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3464 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:59 pm

Heej wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Heej wrote:LETS GOOOOO CP3!!! Murray or Mitchell def knocking Russ out next year. But lol imagine having Gobert over Embiid


I haven't through, but I have to say, the 76ers were a trainwreck this year culturally so it's really not weird to me that people were out on him.

As I say that;

I could have said the same thing about Gobert for anyone bothered by his COVID performance (his best passing of the year). Fine to say that that's not fair, just wouldn't be surprised.

I also get people saying it's weird for Simmons to get the nod over Embiid. Clearly they were in different positions. I'd have been fine with both missing All-NBA.

Haha I'd say out of all the organization vs star player dysfunction delineations I'll have to give the nod to the Sixers organization in general just having weird energy about them. Some of the moves they made just seemed panicky and nonsensical and there's gotta be some lingering stench of all the embarrassing tanking culture of this decade. I've heard that alluded to by Zach Lowe on his podcast when he talks about what he's heard from sixers staff.


There's truth in that, and it's a fascinating thing.

On one level, I think it's clear that the big sin of the 76er organization was to tell Hinkie he could do his Process and then cut him off half way. While you have to expect you're not going to let it go on indefinitely, somebody should have been there to say "Listen, we still don't know what Embiid is. If he becomes a star after you fire Hinkie, you're probably going to make him hate you and at the very least, he's not going to respect you. Unless you're willing to trade Embiid right now, you should stay the course." And of course given how it turned out, that would have meant sticking with Hinkie. Ownership along with the NBA itself and the Colangelos deserve a lot of blame here and that's before you get into the foolishness of hiring Brand as GM.

But it has to be said that the way the team focused on talent over fit made the players feel pit against each other, which could not have been good for culture. It all makes sense from "We're going to find out who is really the best and build around them", but even great talents need to learn to be team players, and I think that with the guy who was best in Embiid, he particularly needed that. But of course, if you were going to focus on building team chemistry, then the fact that Embiid wasn't the first big you got means you probably don't draft him.

What it all amounts to is that the Hinkie Process wasn't necessarily a bad strategy, but it was playing with fire, and while others deserve blame, it seems pretty clear that Hinkie was tone deaf to the negative effects of the meat grinder he was effectively putting players through. If you're going to do a Process, you have to have someone captaining the ship who has EQ, and Hinkie seemed to be lacking there, to say nothing of the fact that he didn't seem to have a sense for how to synergize player talents the way, say, a Danny Ainge does.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3465 » by eminence » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:03 pm

I would've liked this:

Harden
Kawhi
LeBron
Giannis
Jokic

CP3
Lillard
Doncic
Tatum
AD

Booker (if not counting bubble then Lowry)
Middleton
Butler
Siakam
Gobert

But really, I'm pretty happy with the job they did.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3466 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:05 pm

Why Siakam over Sabonis?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3467 » by eminence » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:11 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Why Siakam over Sabonis?


Pretty comparable as players (Sabonis more offensively skilled, Siakam the more useful defender), in a vacuum I'd slightly lean Siakam. Then I'd further tilt in his favor that the Raptors don't yet have representation in my ideal (and I like having good teams represented), and I prefer Siakam's label as a PF to Sabonis who I view as a C.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3468 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:12 pm

eminence wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Why Siakam over Sabonis?


Pretty comparable as players (Sabonis more offensively skilled, Siakam the more useful defender), in a vacuum I'd slightly lean Siakam. Then I'd further tilt in his favor that the Raptors don't yet have representation in my ideal (and I like having good teams represented), and I prefer Siakam's label as a PF to Sabonis who I view as a C.


According to your list don't you view Davis as a 5? He plays 4 a lot during the RS.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3469 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:13 pm

eminence wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Why Siakam over Sabonis?


Pretty comparable as players (Sabonis more offensively skilled, Siakam the more useful defender), in a vacuum I'd slightly lean Siakam. Then I'd further tilt in his favor that the Raptors don't yet have representation in my ideal (and I like having good teams represented), and I prefer Siakam's label as a PF to Sabonis who I view as a C.


According to your list don't you view Davis as a 5? He plays 4 a lot during the RS.

Doesn't most of Sabonis impact still come from defense?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3470 » by E-Balla » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:30 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I haven't through, but I have to say, the 76ers were a trainwreck this year culturally so it's really not weird to me that people were out on him.

As I say that;

I could have said the same thing about Gobert for anyone bothered by his COVID performance (his best passing of the year). Fine to say that that's not fair, just wouldn't be surprised.

I also get people saying it's weird for Simmons to get the nod over Embiid. Clearly they were in different positions. I'd have been fine with both missing All-NBA.

What 6 guards would've been fine to include over Simmons? You think putting Westbrook and Lowry 3rd team and leaving him out wouldn't be egregious? Because I'd put Simmons clearly over Westbrook right now.


Well, like I said I haven't thought it through really.

If I do a sorting of guards by RS Win Shares - just a quick and dirty metric - I get:

1. Harden
2. Lillard
3. Paul
4. Doncic
5. Booker
6. Lowry

Those are clearly guys who deserve to be All-NBA ahead of Simmons or Westbrook, but of course, the NBA stupidly did not include the Bubble games in the calibration, so picking Simmons or Westbrook ahead of Booker makes sense. But then there's Kemba Walker to consider. I'd definitely give the nod to Walker over Simmons or Westbook. Could make a case for Bradley Beal as well.

Well it seems like Luka was a F not a G and no way in hell Beal deserves it over either of them. One of the worst defensive seasons ever for him.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3471 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 pm

Middleton and Lowry got robbed (Simmons and Westbrook).
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3472 » by Rapcity_11 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:00 pm

Dupp wrote:To be fair this is a regular season award and Westbrook actually ended up having a really good season after the horror start. Not saying he definitely deserved it but he was pretty good.


Terrible for first 19 games, missed 11 games, good/great for 34 games.

That's not all-nba material.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3473 » by GSP » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:01 pm

Gobert is a better player than Embiid so the choice is fine to have Joel out if we're counting Ad as a 5
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3474 » by GSP » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:06 pm

Nets are reportedly interested in Jrue Holiday

Jrue/Kyrie would be a nasty backcourt

They need a legit 5 tho. Jarrett Allen isn't it and it looks like Kd/Kyrie are gonna fall into the bad decision making of mixing friends with business

Deandre Jordan as a starter is gonna be a trainwreck
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3475 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:28 pm

GSP wrote:Nets are reportedly interested in Jrue Holiday

Jrue/Kyrie would be a nasty backcourt

They need a legit 5 tho. Jarrett Allen isn't it and it looks like Kd/Kyrie are gonna fall into the bad decision making of mixing friends with business

Deandre Jordan as a starter is gonna be a trainwreck


Jarrett Allen is passable if the team has enough shooting and general offensive talent around him, imo, which should be the case on this Nets team. He's definitely better than DeAndre Jordan... But yeah, the Nets should ideally have someone who can shoot and offers a bit more versatility on offense in that spot. Someone like Ibaka, who coincidentally, is a FA this offseason, he'd be an amazing fit, but i don't think the Nets have much in the way of cap flexibility...
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3476 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:39 pm

My only major gripe is AD getting in as a center when he started alongside one for most of the season. Meanwhile middleton misses the cut because he was seemingly listed as a forward only? As i've gotten older i've let this stuff bother me less, but with all NBA being connected to contracts that's pretty weak.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3477 » by GSP » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:55 pm

Montrez Harrell has a -16.5 on court rating for the playoffs for his career and -27.1 on/off

yikes. Thats even worse than playoff Demar Derozan. Some dumb franchise is gonna pay him. My bet is the Knicks or Kings
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3478 » by Dupp » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:55 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Dupp wrote:To be fair this is a regular season award and Westbrook actually ended up having a really good season after the horror start. Not saying he definitely deserved it but he was pretty good.


Terrible for first 19 games, missed 11 games, good/great for 34 games.

That's not all-nba material.



Nah you’re absolutely right. Didn’t realise he missed that much time and it seemed like he was playing well for much longer.


In saying that I’m not advocating for him on the team just saying he wasn’t crap.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3479 » by Dupp » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 pm

GSP wrote:Nets are reportedly interested in Jrue Holiday

Jrue/Kyrie would be a nasty backcourt

They need a legit 5 tho. Jarrett Allen isn't it and it looks like Kd/Kyrie are gonna fall into the bad decision making of mixing friends with business

Deandre Jordan as a starter is gonna be a trainwreck



Jrue is a great guy to go after for them and a really good fit. Would be huge if they got him.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3480 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:04 pm

I hate how they shift the positions around to get the sexiest names for All NBA and All Defense. At that point just make it the top 5 players or top 5 defenders.

Anthony Davis did not primarily play center this season, it wasn't even a case of "I can't tell if he is one or not". He was as much a power forward as Draymond Green has been.

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