2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4021 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:33 am

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:The league average efficiency in playoffs was 57.4 TS%. What can we make out of it? Did the bubble really helped players? Is it because of long break between RS and playoffs?

I don't know what to think about it, but it's insane number.


No mention of your boys Dwight and McGee playing a combined total of 1 minute in a Game 6 in the NBA Finals and their team having a +30 point lead at half time?

#BigManLeague

Davis is center-sized and LeBron is huge forward, so I don't get what you're trying to push here. Miami lost and they were smaller team. I don't care if a scrub like McGee didn't see the floor. He'd always be a bad player no matter what era, what rules, what style and what opponent.

Weak baiting attempt :noway:
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4022 » by limbo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:08 pm

70sFan wrote:Davis is center-sized and LeBron is huge forward, so I don't get what you're trying to push here. Miami lost and they were smaller team. I don't care if a scrub like McGee didn't see the floor. He'd always be a bad player no matter what era, what rules, what style and what opponent.

Weak baiting attempt :noway:


A scrub like McGee was your typical starter player 10-15 years ago...

Your team in particular was notorious for the Rasho Nesterovic, Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson, Nazr Mohammed type dudes... McGee is better than all of these dudes, and he couldn't sniff the floor in 2020, despite sharing the court with two of the best players in the league...

Dinosaurs get extinct. That's just part of nature.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4023 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:19 pm

limbo wrote:A scrub like McGee was your typical starter player 10-15 years ago...

McGee played 10 years ago and he was starter only in tanking Wizards team. When he played in Denver, he was seen as nobody and people laughed at him.

Your team in particular was notorious for the Rasho Nesterovic, Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson, Nazr Mohammed type dudes... McGee is better than all of these dudes, and he couldn't sniff the floor in 2020, despite sharing the court with two of the best players in the league...

Nesterovic started only in 2004 playoffs, when Spurs lost Admiral and it was visible how much he hurt them. Elson was never a starter in SAS and he played as much minutes in playoffs as McGee this season.

Oberto was definitely better player than McGee, he wasn't a center and he still topped his minutes at 20 mpg in playoffs.

I don't get your point. Spurs didn't have the luxury of playing with 5 elite players all the time. These players were not relevant in the league and there are plenty of players like that in the league today. Nesterovic was a liability in 2004, but he had to play because Spurs didn't have a better option. If Lakers didn't have much of a choice, McGee would also start.
Dinosaurs get extinct. That's just part of nature.

If you think that dinosaurs got extinct because they were inferior to mammals, then I recommand you to read a book or two about it. Dinosaurs were better than mammals at adapting, that's why they dominated all niches for milions of years. Besides, dinosaurs didn't get extinct, they are still alive - just like centers ;)
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4024 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:23 pm

"Steve Kerr didn't sniff the court in 2003 finals - shooters who were bad defenders got extinct! There is no way that Duncan Robinson would sniff the floor in 2003 finals..."
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4025 » by limbo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:26 pm

70sFan wrote:McGee played 10 years ago and he was starter only in tanking Wizards team. When he played in Denver, he was seen as nobody and people laughed at him.


You can pick a random year out of the 00's and i'll give you plenty of examples of Bigs that started or played over 25 mpg, that teams today wouldn't play a single minute against most elite teams (with Denver probably being the exception because of Jokic).

The New Jersey Nets started both Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins in 2006 for crying out loud... And they were far from the only team that approach the game by playing a bigger lineup. That would get a coach fired in today's league. No wonder they were ranked 25th in offensive rating despite having prime Jason Kidd, Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson...

I don't get your point. Spurs didn't have the luxury of playing with 5 elite players all the time. These players were not relevant in the league and there are plenty of players like that in the league today. Nesterovic was a liability in 2004, but he had to play because Spurs didn't have a better option. If Lakers didn't have much of a choice, McGee would also start.


These types of players (Nesterovic, Oberto, Elson, Mohammed etc.)were very much relevant at the time because the league as a whole still didn't fully grasp the concept of pace and space, and making these Bigs defend up to the 3pt line where they were significantly easier to exploit defensively then when they were camping around the paint...

And despite this fact, a lot of these guys still managed to have terrible impact somehow... Imagine trying to get away with them now...

'If Lakers didn't have much of a choice, McGee would also start' -> How bad does your team have to be to even entertain starting someone like McGee? The Lakers literally build their roster from scrap heaps after getting AD. Markieff Morris was a perennial NBA journeyman before the Lakers decided to pick him up when nobody wanted him, and he managed to play 21 mpg in the Finals... And Kieff has no discernable basketball skills other than shooting wide open 3's which he's pretty inconsistent at.

So basically, you can pick up a guy from the waivers list that will be more useful to your team than playing a traditional 7-foot Center who would be starting or playing 20 mpg on most teams in the 00's.

When that's the case, 'not having a choice' is an invalid remark. You should have plenty of choices in the current landscape of the NBA to throw various types of lineup out there on the floor, and unsurprisingly, most team decide against picking up 7-footers or playing bigger lineups...

Miami was running with Bam and Kelly Olynyk at the 5 (both of these guys would've played the PF position in any other decade of NBA history) and Jae Crowder at PF, who on his best day could be argued as 6-7 in height.

Toronto rather played Ibaka at C and Siakam at PF because Gasol was getting ABSOLUTELY exposed throughout the Playoffs...

Boston is running Thies at C, who is what? 6-9? He's definitely closer to the Morris brothers in profile, skillset, mobility than you typical NBA Big. And of course Jayson Tatum at PF, who you know would be a SF in any other period of NBA history, if not a SG.


If you think that dinosaurs got extinct because they were inferior to mammals, then I recommand you to read a book or two about it. Dinosaurs were better than mammals at adapting, that's why they dominated all niches for milions of years. Besides, dinosaurs didn't get extinct, they are still alive - just like centers ;)


They are fossils, just like the traditional Center archetype. The bar in terms of skill and versatility has been set so high for all the players on the court that most of the Bigs that were strolling into starting lineups or 20-28 mpg roles as early as 15 years ago simply can not keep up any longer... That's why you're seeing less and less Nazr Mohammeds and Kosta Koufouses, and more and more guys like Morris, Siakam, Tatum playing the PF

And the only way a Center thrives in today's league is if he doesn't play in the low block outside a couple of possessions per quarter at maximum. Which is in direct opposite to how Bigs historically played and dominated games.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4026 » by Heej » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:41 pm

I think last night is just a good example of the synergy that came from the 2-way talent of the Lakers. That was the first time they came out angry all postseason and basically just socked the Heat, holding them to 14 in the 2Q. This is why I couldn't take those Duncan Robinson performances that seriously. The Heat were playing full throttle from Game 3 on and the Lakers were hiding their final gear this entire time. Hopefully the Lakers get pushed more next playoffs and we get to see their Flying Death Machine Mode activate more often. That was truly a treat to watch them clicking like that.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4027 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:47 pm

limbo wrote:You can pick a random year out of the 00's and i'll give you plenty of examples of Bigs that started or played over 25 mpg, that teams today wouldn't play a single minute against most elite teams (with Denver probably being the exception because of Jokic).

The New Jersey Nets started both Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins in 2006 for crying out loud... And they were far from the only team that approach the game by playing a bigger lineup. That would get a coach fired in today's league. No wonder they were ranked 25th in offensive rating despite having prime Jason Kidd, Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson...

I'll give you 2020 and I'll name you players you'd say that wouldn't make the league had they played 20 years ago:

Enes Kanter - definition of "outdated player", played in ECF.
DeAndre Jordan - old, slow and unskilled bigman.
Nikola Vucevic - basically the same type of player Divac and Sabonis were, except worse and less athletic.
Ivica Zubac - he can't shoot or guard perimeter.
Mason Plumlee - another bigman who can't shoot and isn't good perimeter defender.
Steven Adams - typical bruiser with decent passing vision (basically 1970s center), can't shoot or defend perimeter.
Rudy Gobert - extreme example, but I'm sure you'll say that Mutombo wouldn't be good today, so why not Gobert?
Boban Marjanovic - despite being one of the slowest players ever, he played in playoffs and did quite well in limited minutes
Hassan Whiteside - terrible passer, can't shoot and isn't good perimeter defender.

These are only significant players from playoff teams. Not all of them are good, but the idea that the league is filled with versatile 6'10 wings comes from nowhere. Blazers had good offense despite playing Nurkic and Whiteside together. Arguably the best offensive coach in the league gives huge 7'4 300 lbs giants minutes even in playoff games.

These types of players (Nesterovic, Oberto, Elson, Mohammed etc.)were very much relevant at the time because the league as a whole still didn't fully grasp the concept of pace and space, and making these Bigs defend up to the 3pt line where they were significantly easier to exploit defensively then when they were camping around the paint...

And despite this fact, a lot of these guys still managed to have terrible impact somehow... Imagine trying to get away with them now...

This is what happens now as well, not all teams have roster filled with talented perimeter players that are big enough to play inside. There are a lot of terrible players in the league still.

'If Lakers didn't have much of a choice, McGee would also start' -> How bad does your team have to be to even entertain starting someone like McGee? The Lakers literally build their roster from scrap heaps after getting AD. Markieff Morris was a perennial NBA journeyman before the Lakers decided to pick him up when nobody wanted him, and he managed to play 21 mpg in the Finals... And Kieff has no discernable basketball skills other than shooting wide open 3's which he's pretty inconsistent at.

Yeah, having Davis has nothing to do with it. McGee is Lakers third center and you're trying to sell it as a huge deal because he didn't get minutes in the finals? Do you want to know how many minutes did Nesterovic play in 2005 finals?

So basically, you can pick up a guy from the waivers list that will be more useful to your team than playing a traditional 7-foot Center who would be starting or playing 20 mpg on most teams in the 00's.

McGee would never play 20 mpg on good teams in any era. He's terrible and always was. He's not "traditional center" either, he's just a big guy who has BBIQ of a brick, can't shoot, can't rebound, can't pass and can't defend outside of occasional blocks. We've seen how many minutes he got on good teams in 2013, he wasn't a starter.

McGee sucks, I don't understand what you see in him to believe he'd start in any era.

When that's the case, 'not having a choice' is an invalid remark. You should have plenty of choices in the current landscape of the NBA to throw various types of lineup out there on the floor, and unsurprisingly, most team decide against picking up 7-footers or playing bigger lineups...

Most? Can you back it up? The only team that doesn't play with legit bigman is Houston and they failed miserably. Heat often play without bigman, but they have Bam who is a center. Boston sometimes play without bigman, but they still give Theis and Kanter minutes. Who else?

Miami was running with Bam and Kelly Olynyk at the 5 (both of these guys would've played the PF position in any other decade of NBA history) and Jae Crowder at PF, who on his best day could be argued as 6-7 in height.

Bam is the same size as Alonzo Mourning, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Dwight Howard. Jae Crowder is the same size as Dave DeBusschere, Dennis Rodman, Bill Bridges, Gus Johnson, Paul Silas and Anthony Mason. This is not an argument, Bam and Crowder aren't anything unseen before in terms of size in NBA history.

Toronto rather played Ibaka at C and Siakam at PF because Gasol was getting ABSOLUTELY exposed throughout the Playoffs...

Or maybe Gasol just got old... You know, it's not like Gasol got exposed last year. Or the year before. Or the year before the year before...
Acting like Gasol became obsolete because of league trends is perfect example of your bias. Gasol was the best defensive player in the best defensive team of last few years last season. You expose yourself far more than Gasol himself in playoffs.

Boston is running Thies at C, who is what? 6-9? He's definitely closer to the Morris brothers in profile, skillset, mobility than you typical NBA Big. And of course Jayson Tatum at PF, who you know would be a SF in any other period of NBA history, if not a SG.

Boston Celtics also give Enes Kanter minutes, who anything but "modern player".
Saying that 6'8 Tatum would be a SG in any era is ridiculous.

They are fossils, just like the traditional Center archetype. The bar in terms of skill and versatility has been set so high for all the players on the court that most of the Bigs that were strolling into starting lineups or 20-28 mpg roles as early as 15 years ago simply can not keep up any longer... That's why you're seeing less and less Nazr Mohammeds and Kosta Koufouses, and more and more guys like Morris, Siakam, Tatum playing the PF

Yeah, let's compare stars to scrubs. We used to have Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill in the league, now we have Isaiah Thomas and Kemba Walker.
And the only way a Center thrives in today's league is if he doesn't play in the low block outside a couple of possessions per quarter at maximum. Which is in direct opposite to how Bigs historically played and dominated games.

Plenty of bigs dominated in plenty of ways. There has been very few strict low post centers in the league that were stars.

Joel Embiid plays a lot more in the post and I wouldn't say he's outdated.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4028 » by limbo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:12 pm

70sFan wrote:I'll give you 2020 and I'll name you players you'd say that wouldn't make the league had they played 20 years ago:

Enes Kanter - definition of "outdated player", played in ECF.
DeAndre Jordan - old, slow and unskilled bigman.
Nikola Vucevic - basically the same type of player Divac and Sabonis were, except worse and less athletic.
Ivica Zubac - he can't shoot or guard perimeter.
Mason Plumlee - another bigman who can't shoot and isn't good perimeter defender.
Steven Adams - typical bruiser with decent passing vision (basically 1970s center), can't shoot or defend perimeter.
Rudy Gobert - extreme example, but I'm sure you'll say that Mutombo wouldn't be good today, so why not Gobert?
Boban Marjanovic - despite being one of the slowest players ever, he played in playoffs and did quite well in limited minutes
Hassan Whiteside - terrible passer, can't shoot and isn't good perimeter defender.


Enes Kanter - Case in point. Played 31 total minutes in the ECF against the Heat. Why? Because he's trash and has no scalable skills an elite team requires in the modern NBA not to get exploited in the Playoffs. The Celtics even preferred playing 22-year old, 6'8'' Robert Williams over Kanter, even though he can't do anything but finish a wide open dunk on offense, because at least he can not get exploited defensively. And here's the kicker, Enes Kanter would've started on some of those Spurs teams in the mid 00's, or at least have averaged 20-25 mpg.

DeAndre Jordan - Let's be honest. The only reason DeAndre has had an NBA career is because of Chris Paul's greatness... He was able to find a niche as a finisher on a very talented offensive roster. 99% of people in the league don't get to just sit around the paint on offense getting the ball served on a platter... Before CP3 came to the Clippers, DeAndre was crap. After CP3 left the Clippers, DeAndre was crap, which is why he had a negative net on/off in 2018 and was bouncing around teams in his last two years... He's a trash player... His hops/dunking gave him a bit of a reputation and he landed in a unique spot where he had ATG playmaking on his roster to serve him. And even then, if the Clippers were smarter, they should have looked to replace him with someone more versatile at his position but we know Doc Rivers is an idiot by now, so it's no surprise why they thought DeAndre was like an all-star type talent...

Nikola Vucevic - Vucevic was a pretty average player until recently where he developed a 3pt shot and became a lot more perimeter oriented in terms of where he likes to spend his time and pick his spots in the half-court... I mean, in his latest Playoff appearance, which was this year, Vucevic averaged 40% (!) of his shots from 3pt land and only 13% of his shots at the rim... No coincidence, it was also his greatest Playoff series in his career in terms of impact, by far. He's another one in a line of countless examples that clearly illustrate a shift in the meta, where Big man are beginning to understand they bring more value on the court and overall impact offensively if they simply just screen and spot behind the arc and shoot threes instead of trying to be overly fancy...

Ivica Zubac - This is the first player you mentioned with any sort of convincing argument. Zubac is indeed a one-dimensional player, but because he's got an amazing touch around the rim and generally good basketball IQ, he would be an above average Center in the 00's (because most Centers in that time couldn't finish the way Zubac does)... Right now, he's average at best. I think the Clippers clear lack of size and the fact that Montrezl Harrell is trash, especially defensively, while taking a lot of minutes at the C position makes Zubac look better than he actually is.

Mason Plumlee - Lol, played 11 mpg in the Playoffs, and did nothing. He's not a legit piece of that Nuggets team. He's there because Jokic needs his rest and Millsap is too small and old to play the C and they don't have any other options. Plumlee couldn't even cut it on Portland or a **** team like the Nets... He's another case in point like Kanter. Teams simply don't have much use for this guy in the modern era... I'm not going to sit here and say Plumlee would be a starter in the 00's or some great player, but his value would definitely be higher in that era than it is now. He's pretty worthless now other than a brief backup options for teams that can't sign anyone else.

Steven Adams - Adams in the OKC vs. Rockets 1st round series in the 2020 Playoffs is a case in point of how modern teams can absolutely expose a Big man's lack of skills and versatility. Adams was just horrendous, and that series now serves as a stark reminder of what can and likely will happen at some point in the PS to teams which heavily rely on low agility Bigs that can't shoot or pass. They would get exposed in a way they wouldn't in the 00's.

Rudy Gobert - Gobert is one of the greatest rim protectors of all-time while being an ATG finisher... When you're that much of an outlier in those areas you're worth a slot on a team. Don't try to build your offense around him though, that would be pretty stupid, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility for teams pre 2010... And even then Gobert has shown signs of weaknesses in getting stretched and left hanging in the modern game in a way he wouldn't in the 00's. You put Gobert in the 00's he's a more impactful player than he is today.

Boban - Nah. Bobby is a situational player you can throw out there to cause some commotion for a couple of stretches here and there per game. He's not a sustainable pillar you can play big minutes over the course of a series because he will get exploited. He's a novelty more than anything.

Hassan Whiteside - Exactly, which is why the Lakers exposed him in the WC 1st round... Dude was his team's best defender and Portland severely lacked in defensive ability as a team in the first place, yet Whiteside couldn't play more than 21 mpg. Nurk honestly wasn't much better. He came back on short notice, but he wasn't that much better in 2019 either.

These are only significant players from playoff teams. Not all of them are good, but the idea that the league is filled with versatile 6'10 wings comes from nowhere. Blazers had good offense despite playing Nurkic and Whiteside together. Arguably the best offensive coach in the league gives huge 7'4 300 lbs giants minutes even in playoff games.


Non of the guys you mentioned were significant players from playoff teams, lol. Most of them were 20 mpg bench fodder that had terrible impact and were exposed, with the only exceptions being Gobert (ATG rim protector & finisher), Vucevic (changing his game to shooting 8.5 threes per game on 40%) and Zubac (a 20 mpg player that was the only real Big on his team were Harrell played Center).


This is what happens now as well, not all teams have roster filled with talented perimeter players that are big enough to play inside. There are a lot of terrible players in the league still.


But are there less terrible Centers in the league overall? This is essentially what i'm asking. Or do you think the level of Big man fodder is the same on aggregate and they can play as big of a role today on elite teams than they could in 00's? And don't give me Gobert as an example... I'm talking about the likes of old Mutombo, Todd MacCollouh/Aaron Williams, Theo Ratliff, Tony Battie, Jamal Magloire, Rasho, DeSangana Diop, Erick Dampier, Chris Kaman and many more... These guys were all getting big minutes for Playoff teams or even contenders at the time...

Yeah, having Davis has nothing to do with it. McGee is Lakers third center and you're trying to sell it as a huge deal because he didn't get minutes in the finals? Do you want to know how many minutes did Nesterovic play in 2005 finals?


Toronto doesn't have Davis, they still play Ibaka at 5 and Siakam at 4, instead of Gasol. Boston doesn't have Davis, they play Thies/Tatum, instead of Kanter. Miami doesn't have Davis, they play Bam/Crowder... Even when Bam was out and they were shorthanded, they didn't touch Meyers Leonard, they rather played Olynyk at 5 and put Butler at PF or whatever...

Why are you asking me how many minutes Rasho played in the 2005 Finals, when Nazr Mohammed was out there playing 23 mpg? Mohammed is BBQ chicken in today's league. If Spurs knew back then what they know now, they would have waived Rasho, put Duncan at the C permanently and signed another player like Robert Horry. Nazr would only come in during the regular season to give Duncan a rest... Not in serious games... But of course, 15 years ago, players like Robert Horry were a rarity, because Bigs were behind the curve in terms of what skills are worth developing. However, there's no excuse for not finding a player like that in 2020... The Lakers literally got Markieff Morris for free off the waivers list, and Morris is far worse than Horry, yet still better than having a Nazr Mohammed.


So basically, you can pick up a guy from the waivers list that will be more useful to your team than playing a traditional 7-foot Center who would be starting or playing 20 mpg on most teams in the 00's.



McGee would never play 20 mpg on good teams in any era. He's terrible and always was. He's not "traditional center" either, he's just a big guy who has BBIQ of a brick, can't shoot, can't rebound, can't pass and can't defend outside of occasional blocks. We've seen how many minutes he got on good teams in 2013, he wasn't a starter.


Of course he would. If old Mutombo, Theo Ratliff, Todd MacCollouch, Aaron Williams, Jamal Magloire, Tony Battie, Rasho Nesterovic, DeSangana Diop, Erick Dampier, Brandon Haywood, Chris Kaman etc. all played far more than 20 mpg on good teams in the 00's... McGee would as well. He's better than most of these guys.

McGee sucks, I don't understand what you see in him to believe he'd start in any era.


I agree that he sucks... Just that he doesn't suck more than your typical 00's Center on most Playoff teams...

[/quote]
Most? Can you back it up? The only team that doesn't play with legit bigman is Houston and they failed miserably. Heat often play without bigman, but they have Bam who is a center. Boston sometimes play without bigman, but they still give Theis and Kanter minutes. Who else?

Come on... You know Houston is an extreme example. That's microball, not smallball. You talk as if Houston is the standard of what smallball is, when they're the extreme outlier... And they didn't fail miserably. They were one of the best teams in the league while playing two 6'6'' guys as rim protectors. They lost because Westbrook sucks mostly, and they lost to the best team in the league, like every other team in the league...

Miami, Toronto, Boston, Houston, Warriors (up until last they all got injured), all the best teams beside the Clippers who only play Zubac for 20 minutes, otherwise play a frontcourt of Harrell/Morris... Denver who has Jokic, Utah who has Gobert. The Lakers best lineup is also with AD at 5 and Bron at 4. Not with a traditional Big 7-footer. They just do that so Davis can play the PF and doesn't throw a hissy fit.

Miami was running with Bam and Kelly Olynyk at the 5 (both of these guys would've played the PF position in any other decade of NBA history) and Jae Crowder at PF, who on his best day could be argued as 6-7 in height.

Bam is the same size as Alonzo Mourning, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Dwight Howard. Jae Crowder is the same size as Dave DeBusschere, Dennis Rodman, Bill Bridges, Gus Johnson, Paul Silas and Anthony Mason. This is not an argument, Bam and Crowder aren't anything unseen before in terms of size in NBA history.


The biggest difference between the guys you mentioned isn't the size, but that most of them couldn't shoot or pass to save their lives yet were still able to impact the game immensely. Harder to do that now. Even a guy like Bam is an ATG finisher, very good passer and can hit a foul line jumper.

Joel Embiid plays a lot more in the post and I wouldn't say he's outdated.


Not more than Centers used to though. And yes, Embiid is limited in terms of offensive ceiling as the primary catalyst on that end.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4029 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:35 pm

Embiid averages like 8.3 post ups a game or something which us a good amount even compared to previous eras though, and in a spaced out system wif he was a decent passer itd def be interesting hiw good offensively he is

I think that there are two extremes to this. The top big men dont get boosted as much as top perimeter guys do today with spacing and freedom of movement, but they arent gonna be useless or cap the team either.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4030 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:07 pm

limbo wrote:The biggest difference between the guys you mentioned isn't the size, but that most of them couldn't shoot or pass to save their lives yet were still able to impact the game immensely. Harder to do that now. Even a guy like Bam is an ATG finisher, very good passer and can hit a foul line jumper.

Wait, you really believe that Dave Cowens couldn't shoot or pass? Do you really believe that Willis Reed couldn't shoot? Sometimes it's better to stat silent about things you don't know anything about...
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4031 » by limbo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:18 pm

70sFan wrote:
limbo wrote:The biggest difference between the guys you mentioned isn't the size, but that most of them couldn't shoot or pass to save their lives yet were still able to impact the game immensely. Harder to do that now. Even a guy like Bam is an ATG finisher, very good passer and can hit a foul line jumper.

Wait, you really believe that Dave Cowens couldn't shoot or pass? Do you really believe that Willis Reed couldn't shoot? Sometimes it's better to stat silent about things you don't know anything about...


I said most of the guys... not all of them... learn how to read. You were naming guys like Paul Silas, Anthony Mason, Dennis Rodman...

Willis Read wasn't much of a passer, he could make a mid-range pull up shot, which might have been impressive back then, but now is basically most for any starting Big. If you can't shoot from outside you're not worth that much as a Big, unless you're Gobert or Giannis.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4032 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:22 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:
limbo wrote:The biggest difference between the guys you mentioned isn't the size, but that most of them couldn't shoot or pass to save their lives yet were still able to impact the game immensely. Harder to do that now. Even a guy like Bam is an ATG finisher, very good passer and can hit a foul line jumper.

Wait, you really believe that Dave Cowens couldn't shoot or pass? Do you really believe that Willis Reed couldn't shoot? Sometimes it's better to stat silent about things you don't know anything about...


I said most of the guys... not all of them... learn how to read. You were naming guys like Paul Silas, Anthony Mason, Dennis Rodman...

Willis Read wasn't much of a passer, he could make a mid-range pull up shot, which might have been impressive back then, but now is basically most for any starting Big. If you can't shoot from outside you're not worth that much as a Big, unless you're Gobert or Giannis.

Anthony Mason was good midrange shooter. Dave DeBusschere was a stretch four back then.

Willis Reed had guard-like midrange game. He had all the moves - pull-up, fadeaway, stepback. Bam Adebayo looks like Dwight Howard next to him shooting-wise.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4033 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:29 pm

limbo wrote:If Spurs knew back then what they know now, they would have waived Rasho, put Duncan at the C permanently and signed another player like Robert Horry.


And what happens if they play Shaq and their 1 big man Duncan picks up 2 fouls in the first quarter?
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4034 » by limbo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:46 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Embiid averages like 8.3 post ups a game or something which us a good amount even compared to previous eras though, and in a spaced out system wif he was a decent passer itd def be interesting hiw good offensively he is

I think that there are two extremes to this. The top big men dont get boosted as much as top perimeter guys do today with spacing and freedom of movement, but they arent gonna be useless or cap the team either.


If they aren't smart decision makers/good playmakers and they have a suspect outside shot (which is what plagues Embiid, and separates him from a guy like Jokic) they are definitely going to cap any team if they're going to be playing a large role offensively.

People like to harp on Ben Simmons and his complete lack of any sort of outside shot (which i agree is inexcusable in 2020), but i think Philly's offensive system which is heavily predicated on giving the ball to Embiid in the half-court, who is a slow/poor decision maker, doesn't operate well on the perimeter, and plays from the post than any other player in the league, makes Simmons come out looking worse than he would in other scenarios.

I already said this in a post a couple weeks ago, but i really don't see the 2019 Sixers being that different in talent/structure offensively than the 2016 Warriors... Simmons is a Draymond Green type player. Elite ball-handler/passer that can't shoot. You could even say Simmons is a better finisher than Green around the basket. Redick was basically the Klay Thompson archetype. You could say Klay was a bit more versatile offensively, but generally speaking, both of this guys averaged around 20 ppg on elite efficiency and did most of their damage by running around screens shooting threes. Then you had Jimmy Butler, who is essentially a better offensive version of Andre Igoudala, and Tobias Harris, who i don't even like as a player, but i'd take him over Harrison Barnes any day of the week...

I think if you give Steph Curry a lineup of JJ Redick, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons and whoever at C he leads this cast of players to a +7 rtg offensively as the clear cut best player on offense. Ok, let's forget about Curry because he's like a GOAT-level offensive player. I think you give this lineup to Kyle Lowry and he turns it into a better offense than Embiid could...

I have more faith a Lowry/Redick/Butler/Simmons/generic Center will produce a better offensive system with better results and less exploitable weaknesses than a lineup of Simmons/Redick/Butler/Harris/Embiid...
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4035 » by limbo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:59 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
limbo wrote:If Spurs knew back then what they know now, they would have waived Rasho, put Duncan at the C permanently and signed another player like Robert Horry.


And what happens if they play Shaq and their 1 big man Duncan picks up 2 fouls in the first quarter?


That's actually a good argument for having a spare Big laying around, yes. I'm always in favor of having variety and options for 'in case of emergency break glass' type of situations.

But let's be real here, if that happens you're pretty much losing the game anyway... What, or do you think playing Nazr Mohammed 24-30 mpg because Duncan is in foul trouble is going to salvage you the game against a player like Shaq? Mohammed isn't going to stop Shaq from doing his thing, and he kills your offense completely at the same time.

Honestly, you might be better off maximizing your pace & space lineup, pushing the pace and trying to tire Shaq out and win by outgunning his team in points...

But then again, Big men fodder is supper effective against a player like Shaq because one of his biggest weaknesses is actually FT shooting. So in that case, you want to be fouling him, but if you don't have any fodder to put on court that's actually going to absorb a lot of fouls by Shaq, you'll eventually be losing a lot of valuable players...

So yeah, against a Shaq, it's good to have Nazr Mohammed and Rasho to clobber him in the paint. But for 99.9% of situations, not so much.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4036 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:34 pm

limbo wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
limbo wrote:If Spurs knew back then what they know now, they would have waived Rasho, put Duncan at the C permanently and signed another player like Robert Horry.


And what happens if they play Shaq and their 1 big man Duncan picks up 2 fouls in the first quarter?


That's actually a good argument for having a spare Big laying around, yes. I'm always in favor of having variety and options for 'in case of emergency break glass' type of situations.

But let's be real here, if that happens you're pretty much losing the game anyway... What, or do you think playing Nazr Mohammed 24-30 mpg because Duncan is in foul trouble is going to salvage you the game against a player like Shaq? Mohammed isn't going to stop Shaq from doing his thing, and he kills your offense completely at the same time.

Honestly, you might be better off maximizing your pace & space lineup, pushing the pace and trying to tire Shaq out and win by outgunning his team in points...

But then again, Big men fodder is supper effective against a player like Shaq because one of his biggest weaknesses is actually FT shooting. So in that case, you want to be fouling him, but if you don't have any fodder to put on court that's actually going to absorb a lot of fouls by Shaq, you'll eventually be losing a lot of valuable players...

So yeah, against a Shaq, it's good to have Nazr Mohammed and Rasho to clobber him in the paint. But for 99.9% of situations, not so much.


This is a good discussion.

I think the fact that the Lakers won with more of a "bigs focus" this year may well be start of a trend back to "bigger" basketball so I don't want to come off like "Small Ball FTW forever!", but the big question with Shaq is always about the other side of the ball now that Stretch 5's exist and great 3 shooters are so ubiquitous.

We see how Davis dominated on the inside in the playoffs and it makes us think about how bigs used to dominate, but Davis can play out to the perimeter on both sides of the ball. Shaq, not so much.

Don't get me wrong, if Shaq were a prospect today I'd see him as a future superstar. But when people go with the whole "he'd massacre all these small ball guys so he'd be even better today!" I always think about the trade offs and the uncertainty about who will get the better end of the mismatch.

Of course I think that way in general and it's part of why I'm not that big on playoff predictions. Analyzing relative strengths and weaknesses ahead of time to know what to expect and what will likely make the difference for a team if they win is good, but when it comes to shoring up weaknesses, I think it's really hard to know who can mitigate the best.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4037 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:25 am

limbo wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
limbo wrote:If Spurs knew back then what they know now, they would have waived Rasho, put Duncan at the C permanently and signed another player like Robert Horry.


And what happens if they play Shaq and their 1 big man Duncan picks up 2 fouls in the first quarter?


That's actually a good argument for having a spare Big laying around, yes. I'm always in favor of having variety and options for 'in case of emergency break glass' type of situations.

But let's be real here, if that happens you're pretty much losing the game anyway... What, or do you think playing Nazr Mohammed 24-30 mpg because Duncan is in foul trouble is going to salvage you the game against a player like Shaq? Mohammed isn't going to stop Shaq from doing his thing, and he kills your offense completely at the same time.

Honestly, you might be better off maximizing your pace & space lineup, pushing the pace and trying to tire Shaq out and win by outgunning his team in points...

But then again, Big men fodder is supper effective against a player like Shaq because one of his biggest weaknesses is actually FT shooting. So in that case, you want to be fouling him, but if you don't have any fodder to put on court that's actually going to absorb a lot of fouls by Shaq, you'll eventually be losing a lot of valuable players...

So yeah, against a Shaq, it's good to have Nazr Mohammed and Rasho to clobber him in the paint. But for 99.9% of situations, not so much.


I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Yes there is more skilled bigs now, and teams back then didn't shoot enough. The Celtics were wrong to think starting Perkins was better than KG at C. But these players were also genuinely more useful back then on defense than they are now as teams were not built to expose them with perimeter skill and spacing, in addition to teams having to go through Shaq and Duncan. These days a player like Nazr would be a liability on offense, and too slow on defense. In those days it was expected would have a neutral impact on the game simply by not touching the ball on offense, while defensively he was more useful back then. The point of him was never really be to good, but more like a 5th starting pitcher who's just mediocre enough for a team to be ok with him taking some of those innings.

There's also the chance that a lot of these players would be 20 pounds lighter and would have developed more shooting range if they were around now. Rasho may have been shooting 3s.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4038 » by Heej » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:25 am

In Shaqs defense, I do think he would've skimmed down as consistent with the era and played at something like 275. Orlando Shaq could at the very least play a "catch hedge" type scheme where they're up to the level of the screen. He was very nimble for his size, and being 50-70 lbs lighter would do wonders for his ability to defend in space. It's tough though, his archetype is at a severe disadvantage. The OReb dominance wouldn't be as prevalent with the long rebounds in today's game. I do think he'd badly need a guy that can pull up quickly off screens vs a drop coverage to help close games.

The Lakers ground Miami's secondary offense to a complete halt playing Herro-Bam pnrs with drop coverage because Herro couldn't punish the deep drop. Post offense is also schematically at a disadvantage due to the fronting and doubling that teams are allowed to do and how incredible teams have gotten at shrinking the floor and flying out to shooters that are one dimensional and can't put the ball on the deck and keep the churn going.

The true all-timers like Curry and Shaq transcend the inherent weaknesses of their archetypes, but they're still present in a reduced manner. I'm not sure Shaq is as dominant in this era as he was in his era. The early 2000s didn't adopt zone concepts yet so post play was still the effective play. It's a whole new game now. I imagine it has to cycle back at some point, but it's gonna be C's in the vein of Jokic that are such good passers they force defenses to let them play on an island.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4039 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:54 am

Shaq came to the league as 290-300 lbs 20 years lld guy. No way he'd ever weigh 275 lbs, it'd be impossible for him.

I can see him staying in 300-320 lbs range, because he wouldn't need extra mass today but 275 lbs is unrealistic.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4040 » by limbo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:43 am

Doctor MJ wrote:This is a good discussion.

I think the fact that the Lakers won with more of a "bigs focus" this year may well be start of a trend back to "bigger" basketball so I don't want to come off like "Small Ball FTW forever!", but the big question with Shaq is always about the other side of the ball now that Stretch 5's exist and great 3 shooters are so ubiquitous.

We see how Davis dominated on the inside in the playoffs and it makes us think about how bigs used to dominate, but Davis can play out to the perimeter on both sides of the ball. Shaq, not so much.

Don't get me wrong, if Shaq were a prospect today I'd see him as a future superstar. But when people go with the whole "he'd massacre all these small ball guys so he'd be even better today!" I always think about the trade offs and the uncertainty about who will get the better end of the mismatch.

Of course I think that way in general and it's part of why I'm not that big on playoff predictions. Analyzing relative strengths and weaknesses ahead of time to know what to expect and what will likely make the difference for a team if they win is good, but when it comes to shoring up weaknesses, I think it's really hard to know who can mitigate the best.


See, i don't look at this Laker victory as a win for 'Big-focused' basketball. I think the Lakers best lineups were still the ones without either Dwight or McGee playing any minutes. And if the Lakers had someone that was actually good instead of Morris/Kuzma getting minutes at the 4, this would be even more pronounced. McGee was completely abolished come Playoff time and Dwight was used situationally, mostly to take some pressure off AD by not always having to bang with the biggest guy and be the main rim protector. Dwight really only featured in the Denver series because he's a good defensive matchup to throw at Jokic. You don't want to be putting AD on Jokic most of the game and risk him getting foul trouble. The Portland series was so lopsided it didn't matter, and against Houston and Miami, when the Lakers got serious they benched Howard, told AD to suck it up, and played much better as a result of it.

And yes, i realize AD is 6'11'' and basically a C/PF hybrid, but the death of 'big man basketball' was never so much about size, but more about style of play. If you can find a 7'5' dude that can play exactly like Anthony Davis and offer the same things while not blow up his knees somewhere along the way, then that player will definitely be one of the best in the league and a definite championship pillar you can build around.

But ultimately it comes down to two things. The first one being what Dr.Positivity already mentioned. The days where teams could get away with playing guys like Nazr/Rasho and Erick Dampier and still challenge for NBA titles are long gone by now. You simply can't afford to be a liability on offense, and defensively, their biggest strength (which is interior/post defense) has become an increasingly less important factor of defending modern offensive schemes. Defensive versatility, the ability to switch, not getting cooked by mismatches, the ability to come out and defend 3pt shooters and recover... all those things have become almost exponentially much more important in the last decade, and guys like Nazr/Dampier and several guys that played 20-32 mpg in the 00's are liabilities in those areas of defense. So now you're basically dealing with players that become liabilities on both ends.

And since people like to pick on me for always using low hanging fruit like Nazr to illustrate my point, you could take someone like Andrew Bynum, and the same things would apply.

Bynum was an all-star not too long ago... What use does Bynum have in the modern NBA? He can't shoot, can't pass, can't dribble on offense... Defensively he's a solid rim protector and post defender, i guess, but is he good at defending the 3pt line, defending multiple positions, switching onto quicker guys, is he fast enough to recover against teams with good shooters and ball movement? No...

Thus... what's the point of having Andrew Bynum on your roster? There's no point. I mean, if you're a team that's starving for talent like the Knicks, i guess you can pick him up and use him as some sort of option offensively. He's good enough to average an efficient 18 ppg and is a good offensive rebounder. But are you really going to go anywhere as a team building around a guy like Bynum offensively? Probably not. Even as a third option type deal, i would decline him... If i'm the 2020 Lakers or the 2020 Heat... I'm not interested in taking Bynum and using him as some 3rd option isolation scorer... I rather fill my roster with more guys like Green, KCP, Morris, Crowder, Olynyk etc. to be honest. Rather just have players that stand on the three point line and either shoot or keep it moving than have a Bynum type player.

Which segways nicely to my second 'thing'; Days of teams looking for offensive injections through mediocre (or even decent) post players are gone... Like i said in the paragraph above. There's absolutely no scenario right now in which you would rather run your offense through a guy like Bynum or Dwight in the post (both of which were actually good post scorers too) over putting the ball into the hands of your best perimeter playmaker and surrounding him with a team full of shooters (ideally guys that can also put the ball on the floor and do more)... Unless that post player is a complete outlier like Jokic who is a multi-dimensional player with GOAT level passing and elite shooting. And even then Jokic plays on the perimeter and uses the full extent of the half-court more than he is a post player... I'm not a big fan of Embiid post-centric offense. It's not terrible, but not great either, and puts a cap on the ceiling. You put Kyle Lowry on those 2018/2019 Sixers and they improve significantly as an offensive team.

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