2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4081 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 pm

70sFan wrote:I also want to point out one very underrated aspect of offense - resiliance. It might be true that Kareem-led team would never reach the heights of Harden-led for example, but in playoffs you have to deal with various defensive schemes - all focused on you. If there is anything that Kareem proved in his long career, it's that his offense couldn't be game planned against. When you start your career in the 1960s and you win FMVP in 1985 - all without major adjustments in his play (outside of some age-related nuances) - you prove that nothing could stop you.

Tell me, what is the way to slow down Kareem? You could try zone defense, but Kareem dealt with zones pretty well in the 1970s when it wasn't outlawed. Maybe modern soft doubles and trapping could confuse Kareem for a moment, but with his experience I doubt it'd be a plan against him. You can't front 7'2 monster who moved like a SF either - this is a suicide. You can try to outscore his team by playing small but Kareem was probably the best ever at killing small lineups. Leaving shooters wide open and clogging the paint isn't something Kareem didn't see either - the paint was crowded in the early 1970s on every possession.

It's not coincidence that Kareem was the best scorer in the league for 15 years, all while leading good and elite offenses. I understand that a lot of things is different now than then, but a lot of things were different in 1970 than in 1985. Kareem got older and slower, the league got more used to him and tried many new ways to stop him and nothing worked.

Not to mention that Kareem wasn't just a post player - he was very skilled. He had good handles for someone 7'2 who had to play within 1970s rules. He could run the break by himself and finish it with posters or eurostep layups. He didn't shoot a lot, but he had decent shooting touch. His finishing ability is unrivaled by anyone else. His faceup game wasn't utilized a lot for obvious reasons, but I've seen him beating players off the dribble as well. He's very good passer who knew how to use spacing around him better than any center.

I know it can create another discussion and disagreements, but when you look at Kareem skillset, Giannis ends up quite lame in comparison. Giannis is outstanding driver and finisher, but he has no in-between game, his vision is definitely worse than Kareem's and it's easy to gameplan against him with right personel. Yet he's 2 time MVP despite all limitations. I know, I know - he plays more on perimeter but that's the reason why he has it so tough in playoffs. I'm positive that we'd see Kareem doing more perimeter work in 2020, but in the end he always has reliable options to get points and create opportunities for others.


I think you make great points here, but I think it's hyperbolic to talk about Kareem moving like a SF. Dude was outquicked by Bill Walton, and why Walton was quick, I certainly wouldn't call him "quick like a guard".

Kareem was exceptionally coordinated and quicker than the average bear, but he wasn't super fast-twitch.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4082 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:24 pm

freethedevil wrote:Fighting screens
Man defense
Switching
Help defense
Lane jumping
Rim protection is a wash, kareem is better stay at home, but giannis gets to spots quicker

We're talking about offense here, not defense. Besides, Giannis isn't on peak Kareem level defensively.

Setting screens

I don't see it, Giannis isn't significant screener.
Interior scoring

Kareem is GOAT interior scorer.
Ball handling

As I said, probably. Giannis wouldn't be good ballhandler with 1970s rules though.
Rim Running

Kareem wasn't used in that role, but I fail to see how this could be relevant here.

Not seeing passing as an advantage at all. Giannis looks worse than kareem because he's asked to be the primary ball handler and playmaker. Kareem was a better passer in the late 70's and early 80's than he was at his peak, and he ended up with an assist percentage of 10-13% to a turnover percentage of 10-13% which is :no:

Yeah, let's decide who is better passer by ast%...
By Ben Taylor estimation, Kareem created 5-6 shots per100 which is remarkable, given that he played in an era that didn't give him the same possibilites as today. Jabbar was excellent playmaker from the post, he could play two-man game well, he's very good passer from the high post and he made a lot of good outlet passes. The biggest difference between them is Kareem's ability to read defenses - Giannis is often surprised by what defense does, Kareem knew all tricks.

Kareem's off-ball creation offsets this, but Giannis is definitely the better passer. No one's packing the paint against giannis successfully if he has chris paul next to him.

Kareem played with much worse rosters than 2019 or 2020 Bucks and he was successful, so I don't see the Paul point.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4083 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:I also want to point out one very underrated aspect of offense - resiliance. It might be true that Kareem-led team would never reach the heights of Harden-led for example, but in playoffs you have to deal with various defensive schemes - all focused on you. If there is anything that Kareem proved in his long career, it's that his offense couldn't be game planned against. When you start your career in the 1960s and you win FMVP in 1985 - all without major adjustments in his play (outside of some age-related nuances) - you prove that nothing could stop you.

Tell me, what is the way to slow down Kareem? You could try zone defense, but Kareem dealt with zones pretty well in the 1970s when it wasn't outlawed. Maybe modern soft doubles and trapping could confuse Kareem for a moment, but with his experience I doubt it'd be a plan against him. You can't front 7'2 monster who moved like a SF either - this is a suicide. You can try to outscore his team by playing small but Kareem was probably the best ever at killing small lineups. Leaving shooters wide open and clogging the paint isn't something Kareem didn't see either - the paint was crowded in the early 1970s on every possession.

It's not coincidence that Kareem was the best scorer in the league for 15 years, all while leading good and elite offenses. I understand that a lot of things is different now than then, but a lot of things were different in 1970 than in 1985. Kareem got older and slower, the league got more used to him and tried many new ways to stop him and nothing worked.

Not to mention that Kareem wasn't just a post player - he was very skilled. He had good handles for someone 7'2 who had to play within 1970s rules. He could run the break by himself and finish it with posters or eurostep layups. He didn't shoot a lot, but he had decent shooting touch. His finishing ability is unrivaled by anyone else. His faceup game wasn't utilized a lot for obvious reasons, but I've seen him beating players off the dribble as well. He's very good passer who knew how to use spacing around him better than any center.

I know it can create another discussion and disagreements, but when you look at Kareem skillset, Giannis ends up quite lame in comparison. Giannis is outstanding driver and finisher, but he has no in-between game, his vision is definitely worse than Kareem's and it's easy to gameplan against him with right personel. Yet he's 2 time MVP despite all limitations. I know, I know - he plays more on perimeter but that's the reason why he has it so tough in playoffs. I'm positive that we'd see Kareem doing more perimeter work in 2020, but in the end he always has reliable options to get points and create opportunities for others.


I think you make great points here, but I think it's hyperbolic to talk about Kareem moving like a SF. Dude was outquicked by Bill Walton, and why Walton was quick, I certainly wouldn't call him "quick like a guard".

Kareem was exceptionally coordinated and quicker than the average bear, but he wasn't super fast-twitch.

Maybe it was a bit of hyberbole, but keep in mind that Kareem was 30 years old when he faced Walton. This version of Kareem was exceptionally quick for his size:

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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4084 » by limbo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:03 pm

70sFan wrote:
limbo wrote:What does Kareem do better than Giannis offensively aside from shooting outside the paint?

He's better passer, he read the defense better, he's much better isolation scorer, he's better post player, he's better offensive rebounder, much better FT shooter and the most importantly - Kareem couldn't be beaten simply by packing the paint.

The better question is why do you think Giannis is better?


How is Kareem a better passer? He was rarely responsible for more than 15% of his teams assisted field goals, while Giannis was at 35% for this season? Kareem was a solid passer out the post, his height helped him to pass over most guys, but Giannis has a much larger playmaking burden and is a more versatile creator from different areas of the floor. Yes, his bread and butter is drive and kicking, but his also a good passer from the post to cutters or cross court to spot up shooters.

It's kind of weird to compare because the game is drastically different now than it was 50 years ago, but when i see Giannis creating more passing angles, pulling out a wider array of passing from more sides of the court and generating more than twice as many of available assists for his team than Kareem did at any point of his career, i question why would i take Kareem over Giannis as a passer? Read the defense better? How do you know?

Better isolation scorer. Yeah, i can buy that.

Better post player. Well, Giannis doesn't play much in the post... so this is kind of moot. Giannis is a much better perimeter player... So whatever.

Better offensive rebounder. Really negligible difference in this department as is, but especially accounting for era, where there are more long rebounds available and players today are really prioritizing getting back on defense before crashing the glass.

Much better FT shooter. Really? Kareem's career FT average is 72% (and Kareem got better as a FT shooter in the 80s). Giannis career FT average is 72% (and he had by far his worst season at the line at 63%, otherwise he would have been at 74%). Giannis is also much better at drawing fouls. Kareem's free-throw rate was 33% and peak at 41% in his first season, then never went above 38%. Giannis in his last two seasons has a free-throw rate of 52%.

Kareem couldn't be beaten simply by packing the paint -> but apparently he could be beat 4-1 by Jack Sikma despite playing with Dantley, Wilkes and Nixon ;)
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4085 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:13 pm

70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:I also want to point out one very underrated aspect of offense - resiliance. It might be true that Kareem-led team would never reach the heights of Harden-led for example, but in playoffs you have to deal with various defensive schemes - all focused on you. If there is anything that Kareem proved in his long career, it's that his offense couldn't be game planned against. When you start your career in the 1960s and you win FMVP in 1985 - all without major adjustments in his play (outside of some age-related nuances) - you prove that nothing could stop you.

Tell me, what is the way to slow down Kareem? You could try zone defense, but Kareem dealt with zones pretty well in the 1970s when it wasn't outlawed. Maybe modern soft doubles and trapping could confuse Kareem for a moment, but with his experience I doubt it'd be a plan against him. You can't front 7'2 monster who moved like a SF either - this is a suicide. You can try to outscore his team by playing small but Kareem was probably the best ever at killing small lineups. Leaving shooters wide open and clogging the paint isn't something Kareem didn't see either - the paint was crowded in the early 1970s on every possession.

It's not coincidence that Kareem was the best scorer in the league for 15 years, all while leading good and elite offenses. I understand that a lot of things is different now than then, but a lot of things were different in 1970 than in 1985. Kareem got older and slower, the league got more used to him and tried many new ways to stop him and nothing worked.

Not to mention that Kareem wasn't just a post player - he was very skilled. He had good handles for someone 7'2 who had to play within 1970s rules. He could run the break by himself and finish it with posters or eurostep layups. He didn't shoot a lot, but he had decent shooting touch. His finishing ability is unrivaled by anyone else. His faceup game wasn't utilized a lot for obvious reasons, but I've seen him beating players off the dribble as well. He's very good passer who knew how to use spacing around him better than any center.

I know it can create another discussion and disagreements, but when you look at Kareem skillset, Giannis ends up quite lame in comparison. Giannis is outstanding driver and finisher, but he has no in-between game, his vision is definitely worse than Kareem's and it's easy to gameplan against him with right personel. Yet he's 2 time MVP despite all limitations. I know, I know - he plays more on perimeter but that's the reason why he has it so tough in playoffs. I'm positive that we'd see Kareem doing more perimeter work in 2020, but in the end he always has reliable options to get points and create opportunities for others.


I think you make great points here, but I think it's hyperbolic to talk about Kareem moving like a SF. Dude was outquicked by Bill Walton, and why Walton was quick, I certainly wouldn't call him "quick like a guard".

Kareem was exceptionally coordinated and quicker than the average bear, but he wasn't super fast-twitch.

Maybe it was a bit of hyberbole, but keep in mind that Kareem was 30 years old when he faced Walton. This version of Kareem was exceptionally quick for his size:




Random q, would you say late kareem was better at the further skyhooks than earlier? Def seemed better vs physiclaity which he striggled at times with tthe bucks it seems

Kareem was probably the most annoyingly unstoppable guy because of that skyhook. In terms of today i mean, hed always have an unstoppable shot in the post/ an insta money bucket

I think late kareem was better offensively cuz i think he used that skyhook more later on. He shot around 50-54% off of skyhooks iirc. The ability to basically generate 1ppp whenever you get the ball is hella valuable. He does have a pretty high turnover rate but id assume this is more from scoring attempts than from passing.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4086 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:17 pm

freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
limbo wrote:What does Kareem do better than Giannis offensively aside from shooting outside the paint?

He's better passer, he read the defense better, he's much better isolation scorer, he's better post player, he's better offensive rebounder, much better FT shooter and the most importantly - Kareem couldn't be beaten simply by packing the paint.

The better question is why do you think Giannis is better?

Fighting screens
Man defense
Switching
Help defense
Lane jumping
Rim protection is a wash, kareem is better stay at home, but giannis gets to spots quicker
Setting screens
Interior scoring
Ball handling
Rim Running

Not seeing passing as an advantage at all. Giannis looks worse than kareem because he's asked to be the primary ball handler and playmaker. Kareem was a better passer in the late 70's and early 80's than he was at his peak, and he ended up with an assist percentage of 10-13% to a turnover percentage of 10-13% which is :no:

Kareem's off-ball creation offsets this, but Giannis is definitely the better passer. No one's packing the paint against giannis successfully if he has chris paul next to him.


Paint packing vs giannis is a bud problem i feel but giannis didnt help it

I feel kareems turnovers are mostly due to scoring, although obv that doesnt change that they are turnovers. Assist ratio and turnover ratio isnt really a great way to judge olaymaking, although tbh i never thought of kareem as a crazy passing big, hes solid for sure. Giannis just struggles alot in specific ways defenses can make him struggle in, that bud isnt countering

With kareem, the only concern id have is turnovers while scoring vs while passing. He has an insta money bucket that leads to him always hitting at a 55-56% rate when he gets the ball in the post. At the very least aft he gained strength late 70s while he lost speed he became more "unstoppable"

Halfcourt offenses being more effecient now than before in general might mitigate this impact, and i do wonder what ways he would be defended with current rules and how he would fare as a defender now, but i think while i agree todays era is better for guards vs back then being better for bigs, both would be good in either era.

Defensively im curious how rim protectors back then would fare today, players have way more sauce finishing so its harder to block them.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4087 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:27 pm

limbo wrote:How is Kareem a better passer? He was rarely responsible for more than 15% of his teams assisted field goals, while Giannis was at 35% for this season? Kareem was a solid passer out the post, his height helped him to pass over most guys, but Giannis has a much larger playmaking burden and is a more versatile creator from different areas of the floor. Yes, his bread and butter is drive and kicking, but his also a good passer from the post to cutters or cross court to spot up shooters.

It's kind of weird to compare because the game is drastically different now than it was 50 years ago, but when i see Giannis creating more passing angles, pulling out a wider array of passing from more sides of the court and generating more than twice as many of available assists for his team than Kareem did at any point of his career, i question why would i take Kareem over Giannis as a passer? Read the defense better? How do you know?

I already explained passing thing. Having higher resposibility doesn't make you better. Giannis has higher assist rate than Rick Barry as well and everyone who watches both know that Barry blows him out as a passer.

By the way, you are wrong that Giannis generates more than twice as many assists as Kareem at any point of his career. Giannis peaked at 5.9 apg so far (6.5 per36, 8.4 per100). Kareem peaked at 5.4 apg (4.9 per36, 6.2 per100). Not only it isn't close to twice as much, but given their roles the difference is minimal and Giannis plays with much better spacing while being far more ball-dominant.
Better isolation scorer. Yeah, i can buy that.

Kareem is top 5 iso scorer ever, I hope you can buy that...

Much better FT shooter. Really? Kareem's career FT average is 72% (and Kareem got better as a FT shooter in the 80s). Giannis career FT average is 72% (and he had by far his worst season at the line at 63%, otherwise he would have been at 74%). Giannis is also much better at drawing fouls. Kareem's free-throw rate was 33% and peak at 41% in his first season, then never went above 38%. Giannis in his last two seasons has a free-throw rate of 52%.

The difference in playoffs is much bigger - Giannis shot 62% from FT line in last four postseasons (37 games, that's significant sample). I don't know why he's so much worse in playoffs, maybe he just can't make FTs when he's tired? I don't know, but Kareem is more consistent from the line.

I didn't mention foul rate, because you're the one who always talk that Shaq hurt his team with many FTs taken (and Giannis is also very weak FT shooter).

Kareem couldn't be beaten simply by packing the paint -> but apparently he could be beat 4-1 by Jack Sikma despite playing with Dantley, Wilkes and Nixon ;)

You mean the series when Kareem averaged 29/12/5 with 56 FG% and 62 TS%? That's better production than Giannis in any of his losses. That's not a proof of finding a scheme that worked against Kareem.

You mean the series when Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson dominated Nixon and Wilkes averaged 16 ppg on 48 TS%? People always talk how bad Milwaukee team is built, but Giannis had better supporting cast than 1979 Kareem.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4088 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:31 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Random q, would you say late kareem was better at the further skyhooks than earlier? Def seemed better vs physiclaity which he striggled at times with tthe bucks it seems


Yes, you are right. Kareem was always a great hook shot maker, but he improved in the second part of 1970s (I think he already showed signs of improvement in 1974 finals).

In my opinion, he peaked offensively around 1976/77 season, although he was pretty much on the same level in 1978-80 period. That's why I see 1977 as his overall peak - he was already a finished product offensively while still having a motor to be elite defender.

Of course it doesn't mean that 1970-75 Jabbar wasn't an all-time great offensive player - it's like with LeBron, you can choose his peak from a decade of elite playing.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4089 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:33 pm

I except a very quite off season with bare minumn money being spent, I think Wiseman goes first in the draft. I feel bad for any fan who gets stuck with LaMelo. DREAM off season would resign rondo, get Gallanari and sign back up C.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4090 » by freethedevil » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:37 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:He's better passer, he read the defense better, he's much better isolation scorer, he's better post player, he's better offensive rebounder, much better FT shooter and the most importantly - Kareem couldn't be beaten simply by packing the paint.

The better question is why do you think Giannis is better?

Fighting screens
Man defense
Switching
Help defense
Lane jumping
Rim protection is a wash, kareem is better stay at home, but giannis gets to spots quicker
Setting screens
Interior scoring
Ball handling
Rim Running

Not seeing passing as an advantage at all. Giannis looks worse than kareem because he's asked to be the primary ball handler and playmaker. Kareem was a better passer in the late 70's and early 80's than he was at his peak, and he ended up with an assist percentage of 10-13% to a turnover percentage of 10-13% which is :no:

Kareem's off-ball creation offsets this, but Giannis is definitely the better passer. No one's packing the paint against giannis successfully if he has chris paul next to him.


Paint packing vs giannis is a bud problem i feel but giannis didnt help it

I feel kareems turnovers are mostly due to scoring, although obv that doesnt change that they are turnovers. Assist ratio and turnover ratio isnt really a great way to judge olaymaking, although tbh i never thought of kareem as a crazy passing big, hes solid for sure. Giannis just struggles alot in specific ways defenses can make him struggle in, that bud isnt countering

With kareem, the only concern id have is turnovers while scoring vs while passing. He has an insta money bucket that leads to him always hitting at a 55-56% rate when he gets the ball in the post. At the very least aft he gained strength late 70s while he lost speed he became more "unstoppable"

Halfcourt offenses being more effecient now than before in general might mitigate this impact, and i do wonder what ways he would be defended with current rules and how he would fare as a defender now, but i think while i agree todays era is better for guards vs back then being better for bigs, both would be good in either era.

Defensively im curious how rim protectors back then would fare today, players have way more sauce finishing so its harder to block them.

Well stay at home bigs tend to get worse in the playoffs these days while more mobile bigs see thier impact go up. SO my guess is a defender like kg gets better while someone like oakley gets worse.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4091 » by limbo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:06 pm

70sFan wrote:I already explained passing thing. Having higher resposibility doesn't make you better. Giannis has higher assist rate than Rick Barry as well and everyone who watches both know that Barry blows him out as a passer.

By the way, you are wrong that Giannis generates more than twice as many assists as Kareem at any point of his career. Giannis peaked at 5.9 apg so far (6.5 per36, 8.4 per100). Kareem peaked at 5.4 apg (4.9 per36, 6.2 per100). Not only it isn't close to twice as much, but given their roles the difference is minimal and Giannis plays with much better spacing while being far more ball-dominant.


No, he's literally generating more passing opportunities with his play and executing on more passes that end up as assists or potential assists...

Kareem had exactly one season where he averaged 6.2 assister per 100, usually he was below 5.5... Giannis has been at 8.5 per 100 in his last two seasons. The difference is pretty significant.

Rick Barry is much more comparable to Giannis and definitely a better passer than Kareem.

Giannis has more spacing but he's also much better at attacking space because he's faster, more explosive and has a better dribble than Kareem.

Kareem is top 5 iso scorer ever, I hope you can buy that...


I mean, Moses was able to be a good isolation scorer in the 70's... so i would hope a guy like Kareem who is 7'2'' and much more skilled on offense could dominate to a historic level in that context.

The difference in playoffs is much bigger - Giannis shot 62% from FT line in last four postseasons (37 games, that's significant sample). I don't know why he's so much worse in playoffs, maybe he just can't make FTs when he's tired? I don't know, but Kareem is more consistent from the line.


That's true. Giannis has been pretty bad at converting his FT's in the PS.

You mean the series when Kareem averaged 29/12/5 with 56 FG% and 62 TS%? That's better production than Giannis in any of his losses. That's not a proof of finding a scheme that worked against Kareem.


Idk, Giannis averaged 7 less points but more apg and almost the same rpg despite playing 20 minutes less per game... I'm sure of Giannis averaged 48.4 mpg vs. Miami he would put up more points, rebounds and assists than Kareem did... ;)

You mean the series when Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson dominated Nixon and Wilkes averaged 16 ppg on 48 TS%? People always talk how bad Milwaukee team is built, but Giannis had better supporting cast than 1979 Kareem.


Didn't seem to play any worse than Middleton, Bledsoe and those guys in my eyes.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4092 » by limbo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:08 pm

freethedevil wrote:Well stay at home bigs tend to get worse in the playoffs these days while more mobile bigs see thier impact go up. SO my guess is a defender like kg gets better while someone like oakley gets worse.


Do you think stay at home bigs do better during pandemics like covid, since experts suggest staying home is a better option under such circumstances?

;)
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4093 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 pm

limbo wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Well stay at home bigs tend to get worse in the playoffs these days while more mobile bigs see thier impact go up. SO my guess is a defender like kg gets better while someone like oakley gets worse.


Do you think stay at home bigs do better during pandemics like covid, since experts suggest staying home is a better option under such circumstances?

;)


DeMarcus Cousins played his role to perfection. I wouldn't change a thing.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4094 » by limbo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:29 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
limbo wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Well stay at home bigs tend to get worse in the playoffs these days while more mobile bigs see thier impact go up. SO my guess is a defender like kg gets better while someone like oakley gets worse.


Do you think stay at home bigs do better during pandemics like covid, since experts suggest staying home is a better option under such circumstances?

;)


DeMarcus Cousins played his role to perfection. I wouldn't change a thing.


True, Cousins was the best stay at home big this season. He was ahead of the curve and stayed at home much sooner than most :D
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4095 » by freethedevil » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:38 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:I already explained passing thing. Having higher resposibility doesn't make you better. Giannis has higher assist rate than Rick Barry as well and everyone who watches both know that Barry blows him out as a passer.

By the way, you are wrong that Giannis generates more than twice as many assists as Kareem at any point of his career. Giannis peaked at 5.9 apg so far (6.5 per36, 8.4 per100). Kareem peaked at 5.4 apg (4.9 per36, 6.2 per100). Not only it isn't close to twice as much, but given their roles the difference is minimal and Giannis plays with much better spacing while being far more ball-dominant.


No, he's literally generating more passing opportunities with his play and executing on more passes that end up as assists or potential assists...

Kareem had exactly one season where he averaged 6.2 assister per 100, usually he was below 5.5... Giannis has been at 8.5 per 100 in his last two seasons. The difference is pretty significant.

Rick Barry is much more comparable to Giannis and definitely a better passer than Kareem.

Giannis has more spacing but he's also much better at attacking space because he's faster, more explosive and has a better dribble than Kareem.

Kareem is top 5 iso scorer ever, I hope you can buy that...


I mean, Moses was able to be a good isolation scorer in the 70's... so i would hope a guy like Kareem who is 7'2'' and much more skilled on offense could dominate to a historic level in that context.

The difference in playoffs is much bigger - Giannis shot 62% from FT line in last four postseasons (37 games, that's significant sample). I don't know why he's so much worse in playoffs, maybe he just can't make FTs when he's tired? I don't know, but Kareem is more consistent from the line.


That's true. Giannis has been pretty bad at converting his FT's in the PS.

You mean the series when Kareem averaged 29/12/5 with 56 FG% and 62 TS%? That's better production than Giannis in any of his losses. That's not a proof of finding a scheme that worked against Kareem.


Idk, Giannis averaged 7 less points but more apg and almost the same rpg despite playing 20 minutes less per game... I'm sure of Giannis averaged 48.4 mpg vs. Miami he would put up more points, rebounds and assists than Kareem did... ;)

You mean the series when Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson dominated Nixon and Wilkes averaged 16 ppg on 48 TS%? People always talk how bad Milwaukee team is built, but Giannis had better supporting cast than 1979 Kareem.


Didn't seem to play any worse than Middleton, Bledsoe and those guys in my eyes.


Player A: Scores 30 ppg on +6 rTS%
Player B: Scores 10 PPG on +3 rTS%

70's Fan: Having higher responsiblity doesn't make you better!

Gee, I wonder why the coach didn't give player b the same scoring responsibilty as player a. Could it be they can't score as well?

Also lets just appreciate how you specifcally took a season well off of Kareem's actual peak to find comprable apg. Because obviously we should just retroactively apply everything to you get the magical hpothetical kareem that isn't clearly worse than giannis at passing.by any sort of measure.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4096 » by freethedevil » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:46 pm

limbo wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
limbo wrote:
Do you think stay at home bigs do better during pandemics like covid, since experts suggest staying home is a better option under such circumstances?

;)


DeMarcus Cousins played his role to perfection. I wouldn't change a thing.


True, Cousins was the best stay at home big this season. He was ahead of the curve and stayed at home much sooner than most :D

who knew violence prevention is covid protection
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4097 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:26 am

limbo wrote:No, he's literally generating more passing opportunities with his play and executing on more passes that end up as assists or potential assists...

Sure, but the gap isn't massive and you have to keep in mind that he plays in environment that is ideal for him to create opportunities. Kareem was much less ball-dominant, played with much worse spacing and played in an era that didn't maximize stars strengths on offense.

Kareem had exactly one season where he averaged 6.2 assister per 100, usually he was below 5.5... Giannis has been at 8.5 per 100 in his last two seasons. The difference is pretty significant.

You said over twice as much, which is not true even when you pick lesser Kareem seasons. You were wrong, just accept it.

Rick Barry is much more comparable to Giannis and definitely a better passer than Kareem.

No, Barry isn't comparable to Giannis. He's much better passer. There is nothing to compare, Barry is one of the best passers ever. Giannis's passing is his weakness relative to other things he does.

Giannis has more spacing but he's also much better at attacking space because he's faster, more explosive and has a better dribble than Kareem.

Sure but these things are not passing skills. He generates more assists because of his style, not because of his passing ability.

I mean, Moses was able to be a good isolation scorer in the 70's... so i would hope a guy like Kareem who is 7'2'' and much more skilled on offense could dominate to a historic level in that context.

Moses is also better isolation scorer than Giannis.

Idk, Giannis averaged 7 less points but more apg and almost the same rpg despite playing 20 minutes less per game... I'm sure of Giannis averaged 48.4 mpg vs. Miami he would put up more points, rebounds and assists than Kareem did... ;)

Then why didn't he? Was it better to play low 30s mpg and lose the series? Maybe Giannis is unable to play high minutes?

Didn't seem to play any worse than Middleton, Bledsoe and those guys in my eyes.

Yeah, Middleton averaged 26/6/7 on 53 TS% and 3 tov. He scored 36 and 28 points on elite efficiency in two games and he won one game without Giannis.

Wilkes averaged 16/7/2 on 48 TS% and 2 tov. He didn't have one game above 25 points and had 10 points and 11 points games.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4098 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:36 am

freethedevil wrote:Player A: Scores 30 ppg on +6 rTS%
Player B: Scores 10 PPG on +3 rTS%

70's Fan: Having higher responsiblity doesn't make you better!

Gee, I wonder why the coach didn't give player b the same scoring responsibilty as player a. Could it be they can't score as well?

This is not whan I said and I don't think how is this trolling attempt is supposed to be meaningful in this discussion.

Assist numbers are much more related to role than passing ability. I already showed you one example - Rick Barry was much better passer but he didn't generate as much assists.

Also lets just appreciate how you specifcally took a season well off of Kareem's actual peak to find comprable apg. Because obviously we should just retroactively apply everything to you get the magical hpothetical kareem that isn't clearly worse than giannis at passing.by any sort of measure.

I picked 1979 Kareem because limbo said that Giannis had more than twice as many assists as Kareem in his best assisting season. I can use whole 1974-80 period, Kareem averaged 4.6 apg, 5.3 PER100 then. That's still not close to twice less.

Besides, why do you think 1979 is so far from his peak? Kareem peaked in 1977, that's only two years and then he had one of his finest posteason performances in 1980. 1979 is definitely prime Kareem and very close to his offensive peak. He regressed a bit defensively, but still was at his best on offense.

Next time I'll let you know that you can't use 2018 James when you talk about his peak ;)
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4099 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:31 am

70sFan wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Player A: Scores 30 ppg on +6 rTS%
Player B: Scores 10 PPG on +3 rTS%

70's Fan: Having higher responsiblity doesn't make you better!

Gee, I wonder why the coach didn't give player b the same scoring responsibilty as player a. Could it be they can't score as well?

This is not whan I said and I don't think how is this trolling attempt is supposed to be meaningful in this discussion.

Assist numbers are much more related to role than passing ability. I already showed you one example - Rick Barry was much better passer but he didn't generate as much assists.

Also lets just appreciate how you specifcally took a season well off of Kareem's actual peak to find comprable apg. Because obviously we should just retroactively apply everything to you get the magical hpothetical kareem that isn't clearly worse than giannis at passing.by any sort of measure.

I picked 1979 Kareem because limbo said that Giannis had more than twice as many assists as Kareem in his best assisting season. I can use whole 1974-80 period, Kareem averaged 4.6 apg, 5.3 PER100 then. That's still not close to twice less.
who gives a **** about kareem's best assisting season? we're talking kareem at his best which was obviously not 1979 and like I said , he was a better passer then. Why don't we just give 2009 lebron his 40% three poitn shooting from 2013 and his league best passing from 2020? Then obviously lebron becomes the best scorer in history, the best offensive player in hsitory and we've effectively ended the goat discussion.

Even if I accept 79 kareem's creation, Giannis creates for more of his teamamtes offense via passing(assist%), kills kareem in volume(10-5 OC), and does so more effeciently(passer rating+assit:turnover percentage). Kareem is not a comparable passer unless you completely ignore what actually happened.

As for Rick Barry, at this point all you've done is say you think rick barry is a better passer than giannis, limo clearly disagrees, and given your argumentation is entiurely based on what barry's passing looked like, it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes. Until you make something resembling a compelling case for barry vs giannis as a passer, I'm going to ignore it as the red herring it currently is. Akin to people constantly brining up david robinson in dicussions about KG

Besides, why do you think 1979 is so far from his peak? Kareem peaked in 1977, that's only two years and then he had one of his finest posteason performances in 1980. 1979 is definitely prime Kareem and very close to his offensive peak. He regressed a bit defensively, but still was at his best on offense.
Kareem didn't peak in 77 he peaked in 72 where he was able to carry a robertson-less bucks to 60 win basketball and had was better from the post and at the rim than the 71 version of kareem who led his team with robertson to 70 win basketball. Him being able to move faster, jump higher and way better defense easily outweigh incremental improvements in scoring versatility that were only neccesary because of a. the influx of talent(which as a byproduct made kareem and the bucks worse relatively speaking) and b. kareem losing his atheleticism and quickness. The "better while older" narrative people play up is certifiable nonsense. Lebron was worth 40 wins at the age of 24, jordan's best came at 28, curry's best playoffs were in 27, his best regular season was in 26. The only real exceptions to this either played during explainsion-weakened eras(which is the opposite of the kareem years in question or get all their value from a very limited set of skills. Kareem was worth more, played much better d, and was much more atheltic, on much better teams. He was simply better.
Next time I'll let you know that you can't use 2018 James when you talk about his peak ;)
You're going to let me know I can't use something I've specifcally argued against? I'm very much not from the "Better player but played worse crowd".. That seems far more in line with your phiilosophy since you think 88 MJ and 09 lebron are close despite the latter having a hilariously better playoffs on top of a hilariously more valuable rs.
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Re: 2019-20 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4100 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:53 am

freethedevil wrote:who gives a **** about kareem's best assisting season? we're talking kareem at his best which was obviously not 1979 and like I said , he was a better passer then. Why don't we just give 2009 lebron his 40% three poitn shooting from 2013 and his league best passing from 2020? Then obviously lebron becomes the best scorer in history, the best offensive player in hsitory and we've effectively ended the goat discussion.

Limbo did give a *** because he mentioned it. Besides, there is no meaningful difference in Kareem as a passer in 1979 and 1977. He was the same passer, but had better teammates in 1979 so he could share the ball more.

Your comparison is much different, because James visibly improved as a passer and shooter from 2009. Kareem was around the same level as a passer from at least 1977 (can't comment 1976, haven't seen any footage from that season).

Even if I accept 79 kareem's creation, Giannis creates for more of his teamamtes offense via passing(assist%), kills kareem in volume(10-5 OC), and does so more effeciently(passer rating+assit:turnover percentage). Kareem is not a comparable passer unless you completely ignore what actually happened.

You still mention assists and passing in volume, but it's not what represents passing ability. Would you take Giannis over Larry Bird from passing standpoint as well? He creates more opportunities after all..

As for Rick Barry, at this point all you've done is say you think rick barry is a better passer than giannis, limo clearly disagrees, and given your argumentation is entiurely based on what barry's passing looked like, it seems to me you'd also argue along the lines of kyrie or ricky rubio being a better passer than kawhi, which i find a laughable opinion given the actual value of their passes. Until you make something resembling a compelling case for barry vs giannis as a passer, I'm going to ignore it as the red herring it currently is.

What do you want from me to prove that Barry is better passer than Giannis? Should I give you video? Do you think that only stats matter?

Honestly, I've never thought something like Barry vs Giannis in passing can be arguable. Anyone who has seen at least a few Barry games knows that Rick created a lot of high reward plays (layps assists) despite being an off-ball threat. He was like Larry Bird in that aspect - he consistently attacked defense with touch passes and he could manipulate defenders with his passing at very high level.

Some things are clearly visible when you watch games. I'm not one of these who say that "stats suck, eye-test only matters" but there are levels to that. We don't have enough data from Barry's era to draw a clear statistical conclusion about his passing, but we have more than enough games (probably around 20 Warrios games from 1975-77 period) to see that Barry was special passer.


Kareem didn't peak in 77 he peaked in 72 where he was able to carry a robertson-less bucks to 60 win basketball and had was better from the post and at the rim than the 71 version of kareem who led his team with robertson to 70 win basketball.

It's not a fact, it's your opinion. I'm very high on Bucks versions of Kareem but he improved offensively in mid-70s while still mantaining enough athleticism to be highly impactful on defense.

Him being able to move faster, jump higher and way better defense easily outweigh incremental improvements in scoring versatility that were only neccesary because of a. the influx of talent(which as a byproduct made kareem and the bucks worse relatively speaking) and b. kareem losing his atheleticism and quickness.

I'm not sure you are right, Kareem improved as a passer for example - is that a meaningless improvement?

The "better while older" narrative people play up is certifiable nonsense. Lebron was worth 40 wins at the age of 24, jordan's best came at 28, curry's best playoffs were in 27, his best regular season was in 26.

Again, you're acting like there is no debate that 2009 is James peak. Besides, Kareem was 28 in 1976 and 29 in 1977, he wasn't old then. By his own words, he was at his best in 1976 season.

The only real exceptions to this either played during explainsion-weakened eras(which is the opposite of the kareem years in question) or get all their value from a very limited set of skills.

Wilt peaked in 1967.
Magic arguably peaked in 1990.
West peaked in 1968.
Hakeem peaked in 1994.

You are not right, every player has different trajectory.

Kareem was worth more, played much better d, and was much more atheltic, on much better teams. He was simply better

You vastly underrate 1977 Kareem athleticism if you think he's much less athletic. He wasn't much worse defender either.

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