#32 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[LA Bird]

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08
21) Tracy McGrady 2002-03
22) Moses Malone 1982-83
23) Patrick Ewing 1989-90
24) Kevin Durant 2013-14
25) Russell Westbrook 2016-17
26) Charles Barkley 1992-93
27) Kawhi Leonard 2018-19
28) Chris Paul 2007-08
29) George Mikan 1948-49
30) Steve Nash 2004-05
31) Giannis Antetokounmpo 2018-19

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.

Deadline: 6pm October 27 Eastern Time
No more extensions (unless there is a tie for first).

The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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[penbeast0]

Barry 75, epic carry job
Frazier 73, orchestrated one of the most team oriented teams of all time
Pettit 58, possibly the greatest 4th quarter Finals performance of all time to carry St Louis past the Celtics (Russell injured or it would be higher)

[euroleague]

Karl Malone 98, the ultimate system star player, molded his game to fit his team perfectly
Isiah Thomas 90, dominant playoffs in a dominant league, led his team offensively and strategically on defense, huge impact player often underrated
Karl Malone 97, dominant regular season and pretty solid playoffs against great defensive schemes

[No-more-rings]

I’m gonna probably go Harden for 2 of my votes again. For my 3rd, idk no one really stands out at this point imo.

I think i’ll be looking Dwight vs Davis perhaps?

For those in love with Karl Malone, what’s his case over Davis? I feel like because Malone’s longevity is so good, people are starting to overrate his peak. Davis is way better at creating his own shot, I don’t think that’s debatable and that’s important imo when Davis probably has him on defense.

[No-more-rings]

Davis’s playoff sample is small, but be that as it may..

13 games, 2 seasons: 30.5/12.7 26.7 PER 59.3 ts%

Aside from like maybe 1 or 2 seasons, Malone has pretty typically performed worse than that.

[cecilthesheep]

I’m gonna probably go Harden for 2 of my votes again. For my 3rd, idk no one really stands out at this point imo.

I think i’ll be looking Dwight vs Davis perhaps?

For those in love with Karl Malone, what’s his case over Davis? I feel like because Malone’s longevity is so good, people are starting to overrate his peak. Davis is way better at creating his own shot, I don’t think that’s debatable and that’s important imo when Davis probably has him on defense.

Passing. Malone was one of the great big-man passers ever, and this tends to get lost in the talk about the pick-and-roll with Stockton etc. Look at some passing highlights, the guy looks like Jokic. Davis, even with his recent improvements, has never been a guy who can create offense for others through smart passing. I also think Malone was a better screen setter for ball screens, pin downs, you name it. Finally I think these gaps are big and Davis' advantage on defense is relatively small. The shot creation is undeniable but on balance I still lean Malone, especially since there are aspects of defense he's still better than Davis at (post defense and charges most notably)

[No-more-rings]

I’m gonna probably go Harden for 2 of my votes again. For my 3rd, idk no one really stands out at this point imo.

I think i’ll be looking Dwight vs Davis perhaps?

For those in love with Karl Malone, what’s his case over Davis? I feel like because Malone’s longevity is so good, people are starting to overrate his peak. Davis is way better at creating his own shot, I don’t think that’s debatable and that’s important imo when Davis probably has him on defense.

Passing. Malone was one of the great big-man passers ever, and this tends to get lost in the talk about the pick-and-roll with Stockton etc. Look at some passing highlights, the guy looks like Jokic. Davis, even with his recent improvements, has never been a guy who can create offense for others through smart passing. I also think Malone was a better screen setter for ball screens, pin downs, you name it. Finally I think these gaps are big and Davis' advantage on defense is relatively small. The shot creation is undeniable but on balance I still lean Malone, especially since there are aspects of defense he's still better than Davis at (post defense and charges most notably)

Interesting response.

So I don’t think he’s Jokic or anything close, but he’s pretty good sure.

I don’t know if it makes up the difference though as far as offense. Idk, it just feels like Malone’s best passing and scoring didn’t occur at the same time so it’s tricky. I don’t know how important Malone’s post defense is when Davis is certainly more versatile and better rim protector.

[liamliam1234]

My “issue”, to whatever extent you can call it one, with Davis — as with postseason Howard — is his impact. Specifically 2018 is kind-of underwhelming despite the gaudy numbers, and Jrue Holiday came across at least as well and arguably better by impact comparison (in a different role from Stockton’s, before that comparison is made).

I think Davis at his best and most involved can be, and maybe is, a better talent, but he is still growing into it. And when he had the best opportunity to live up to his full potential, against the Warriors in 2018, I felt he kind-of missed the mark. I do not know, maybe he set the standard too high by looking like the best player of that 2015 series. As I have said before, at this point it is really splitting hairs. For me, though, I feel I would have seen more from guys like Gilmore and Reed in his place.

[No-more-rings]

My “issue”, to whatever extent you can call it one, with Davis — as with postseason Howard — is his impact. Specifically 2018 is kind-of underwhelming despite the gaudy numbers, and Jrue Holiday came across at least as well and arguably better by impact comparison (in a different role from Stockton’s, before that comparison is made).

I think Davis at his best and most involved can be, and maybe is, a better talent, but he is still growing into it. And when he had the best opportunity to live up to his full potential, against the Warriors in 2018, I felt he kind-of missed the mark. I do not know, maybe he set the standard too high by looking like the best player of that 2015 series. As I have said before, at this point it is really splitting hairs. For me, though, I feel I would have seen more from guys like Gilmore and Reed in his place.

That sounds like a concern more if we we’re voting him in the top 20 and not top 35ish instead.

His annihilation of the Blazers was quite impressive imo. They were surprisingly good defensively that year(8th ranked), and Davis tore them up for 33/12 on 65 ts% in a sweep. He was a little disappointing against the Warriors but i kind of recall him getting swarmed in that series, idk i’d have to rewatch. But I don’t see it as a big deal for someone going in the 30s for peak. Gilmore and Reed certainly never had to perform like that on offense, nor were they capable.

[No-more-rings]

And also, i’d find it silly to suggest that Reed or Gilmore beats the Warriors in place of Davis. I hope that’s not what you mean by “seen more”. Because “more” would still be a loss when facing KD, Curry and the crew.

[trex_8063]

1st ballot - '97 Karl Malone
imo, wherever Barkley is for peak, Malone should not be far behind. Peak Barkley (I went w/ '90 as his peak, btw) was one of the most dominant/reliable post scorers of all-time, definitely more devastating in this aspect than Karl. He was also hyper-elite on the offensive glass, and could lead the break in transition. But '97 Karl was equal or better at basically everything else, imo:
*he was a clearly better mid-range shooter
**better FT-shooter
***better half-court passer (they ran A LOT of off-ball screens and back-picks for cutting guards, with Malone hitting them with precision passes from the elbow; while also being fantastic passing out of the double-team)
****probably better running and finishing in transition
*****equal or better defensive rebounder [better than pre-'93 Barkley, equal(ish) to '93 and after version]
******notably better defender (very crafty low-post defender, active hands, and decent pnr defender, capable of moving his feet on the perimeter).

Yeah, having Stockton to set you up sometimes certainly helps you look good; but let's not overlook that Stockton having someone like Malone----a guy who sets a fantastic screen, who has a great sense of when to roll and when to pop [and can function/score from either], who has great hands on the move, who finishes well at the rim, and who is also probably the best transition running PF in history prior to Giannis----was certainly very helpful in making him [Stockton] look good, too.

I mean, if we replace Malone with Tristan Thompson, does Stockton's career look as glossy? There's a definite give and take in their relationship.


2nd ballot - '11 Dwight Howard
I reserve the right to change my 2nd/3rd ballot in this or later threads (Baylor, Harden, Davis, McAdoo all look like good candidates to me at this point, too; '09 Dwight is also a good option [or even '10]), but yeah......I'm gonna break the ice on Dwight (who I think doesn't get enough credit here for how damn good he was from '09-'12).
Really a bit of an athletic freak: though only about 6'9" without shoes, he has kinda long arms/reach, freakish ups for a guy that size, and a tremendous amount of strength (particularly in the upper body). Decent foot-speed for his size, too.

On offense, he put that athleticism to good use mostly by way of offensive rebounding (where he was near '19 Rudy Gobert territory), and in finishing at the rim. He's basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from <3 ft in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load between the two years, and often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). His FTAr is a ridiculous .877 in '11 (is higher other years), as teams adopted a hack-a-Shaq strategy when he got the ball deep under the rim (because he was basically unstoppable otherwise if you let him get the rock that low).
He also by this point had a little bit of a simple jump-hook (with either hand) that he used quite regularly (was probably at his peak form for this particular move in '11).
He otherwise doesn't have much going for him offensively: has no jump-shot or range to speak, limited [though not terrible] FT shooter, limited repertoire of post-moves outside of the one I mentioned, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover-prone.

Still, to be clear, I'm not trying to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier of finishers when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. And if taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell.
The Magic structured their offense around his inside presence, often spreading the floor with four shooters around him, essentially daring teams to not guard him one-on-one.

And defensively, well......while he doesn't have the footwork or IQ of someone like Tim Duncan [by a long shot], his athleticism again can make up for a multitude of sins (both his, or those of teammates). He anchored a -5.3 rDRTG with a cast of [in descending order of minutes]: Jameer Nelson, Brandon Bass, Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu, JJ Redick, Ryan Anderson, aging Gilbert Arenas, and Quentin Richardson. They were #1 in the league in DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%. Those points literally scream that peak Dwight was an all-time level defensive anchor.

They were also above average offensively with that cast, btw, and won 52 games with a +4.92 SRS. They lost in the first round [6 games] to a good Hawks team, but can't lay it on Dwight: although he did avg 5.5 topg in the series, he also averaged 27 ppg on 67.7% TS and grabbed 15.5 rpg, while helping to hold the Hawks to lowly 101.6 ORtg (Orlando actually outscored them in the series). Dwight's entire supporting cast pretty much vanished in that series, though.


I could just give another year of Karl Malone my 3rd ballot (or even my 2nd ballot, for that matter), but it's more fun to spread it around, so......

3rd ballot - '75 Artis Gilmore
Was the team's leading scorer [by a significant margin] in both rs and the playoffs while also leading them in shooting efficiency in the rs (2nd to an 11.1 mpg player in the playoffs). Simultaneously anchored a #1-rated -6.4 rDRTG (they were #1 in the ABA in both DREB% and opp eFG%).
One can question the competitiveness of the ABA, though I don't think it was terribly far off the NBA at that time, and at any rate: look what^^^ he did to the league. If he did that in the NBA of the early 80's, we'd have voted him in at least 5-6 places ago.

fwiw, the Colonels rolled to a title (13-3 playoff record) with Gilmore averaging 24 and 18 in the playoffs.

Defensively he's a long and imposing physical presence underneath while on offense having a knack for getting deep paint touches and finishing well.


I could be swayed to any number of other candidates (Davis, Harden, Baylor, McAdoo, or again: some other year of Malone [or Howard]), but now I'll give the shout out to Gilmore.

[freethedevil]

My “issue”, to whatever extent you can call it one, with Davis — as with postseason Howard — is his impact. Specifically 2018 is kind-of underwhelming despite the gaudy numbers, and Jrue Holiday came across at least as well and arguably better by impact comparison (in a different role from Stockton’s, before that comparison is made).

I think Davis at his best and most involved can be, and maybe is, a better talent, but he is still growing into it. And when he had the best opportunity to live up to his full potential, against the Warriors in 2018, I felt he kind-of missed the mark. I do not know, maybe he set the standard too high by looking like the best player of that 2015 series. As I have said before, at this point it is really splitting hairs. For me, though, I feel I would have seen more from guys like Gilmore and Reed in his place.

That sounds like a concern more if we we’re voting him in the top 20 and not top 35ish instead.

His annihilation of the Blazers was quite impressive imo. They were surprisingly good defensively that year(8th ranked), and Davis tore them up for 33/12 on 65 ts% in a sweep. He was a little disappointing against the Warriors but i kind of recall him getting swarmed in that series, idk i’d have to rewatch. But I don’t see it as a big deal for someone going in the 30s for peak. Gilmore and Reed certainly never had to perform like that on offense, nor were they capable.

also this was back when the warriors were a historically good playoff defense. In the rs, he was worth around 12 wins. Now theoretically, 2019 davis should be a much bette rplayer due to being a much better playmaker but, well it was a wierd season.


Regardless, I'll go

1. 2016 Draymond Green, amazing impact and second best player in the playoffs overall
2. Jokic, Best statistical postseason of anyone left, and had historically great playmaking stats
3. 2018 Davis, fantastic rs impact, a dominant playoff series vs the blazers, and did alright against the league's best defense in the warriors.

I think i could knock 1,2, or 3 off the list for peak howard or malone or gilmore or mourning potentially

[No-more-rings]

1st ballot - '97 Karl Malone
imo, wherever Barkley is for peak, Malone should not be far behind. Peak Barkley (I went w/ '90 as his peak, btw) was one of the most dominant/reliable post scorers of all-time, far more devastating in this aspect than Karl. He was also hyper-elite on the offensive glass, and fantastic in transition (and unlike Malone, could also be the guy LEADING the break, being a very good transition passing forward). But '97 Karl was better at basically better at everything else, imo: he was a clearly better mid-range shooter, better FT-shooter, better half-court passer (they ran A LOT of off-ball screens and back-picks for cutting guards, with Malone hitting them with precision passes from the elbow; while also being fantastic passing out of the double-team), better [than any version of Barkley prior to '93, and equal(ish) to '93 and after version] defensive rebounder, and notably better defender (very crafty low-post defender, active hands, and decent pnr defender, capable of moving his feet on the perimeter).

Yeah, having Stockton to set you up sometimes certainly helps you look good; but let's not overlook that Stockton having someone like Malone----a guy who sets a fantastic screen, who has a great sense of when to roll and when to pop [and can function/score from either], who has great hands on the move, who finishes well at the rim, and who is also probably the best transition running PF in history prior to Giannis----was certainly very helpful in making him [Stockton] look good, too.

I mean, if we replace Malone with Tristan Thompson, does Stockton's career look as glossy? There's definite give and take in their relationship.


2nd ballot - '11 Dwight Howard
I reserve the right to change my 3rd ballot in this or later threads (Baylor, Harden, Davis, McAdoo all look like good candidates to me at this point, too; '09 Dwight is also a good option [or even '10]), but yeah......I'm gonna break the ice on Dwight (who I think doesn't get enough credit here for how damn good he was from '09-'12).
Really a bit of an athletic freak: though only about 6'9" without shoes, he has kinda long arms/reach, freakish ups for a guy that size, and a tremendous amount of strength (particularly in the upper body). Decent foot-speed for his size, too.

On offense, he put that athleticism to good use mostly by way of offensive rebounding (where he was near '19 Rudy Gobert territory), and in finishing at the rim. He's basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from <3 ft in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load between the two years, and often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). His FTAr is a ridiculous .877 in '11 (is higher other years), as teams adopted a hack-a-Shaq strategy when he got the ball deep under the rim (because he was basically unstoppable otherwise if you let him get the rock that low).
He also by this point had a little bit of a simple jump-hook (with either hand) that he used quite regularly (was probably at his peak form for this particular move in '11).
He otherwise doesn't have much going for him offensively: has no jump-shot or range to speak, limited [though not terrible] FT shooter, limited repertoire of post-moves outside of the one I mentioned, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover-prone.

Still, to be clear, I'm not trying to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier of finishers when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. And if taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell.
The Magic structured their offense around his inside presence, often spreading the floor with four shooters around him, essentially daring teams to not guard him one-on-one.

And defensively, well......while he doesn't have the footwork or IQ of someone like Tim Duncan [by a long shot], his athleticism again can make up for a multitude of sins (both his, or those of teammates). He anchored a -5.3 rDRTG with a cast of [in descending order of minutes]: Jameer Nelson, Brandon Bass, Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu, JJ Redick, Ryan Anderson, aging Gilbert Arenas, and Quentin Richardson. They were #1 in the league in DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%. Those points literally scream that peak Dwight was an all-time level defensive anchor.

They were also above average offensively with that cast, btw, and won 52 games with a +4.92 SRS. They lost in the first round [6 games] to a good Hawks team, but can't lay it on Dwight: although he did avg 5.5 topg in the series, he also averaged 27 ppg on 67.7% TS and grabbed 15.5 rpg, while helping to hold the Hawks to lowly 101.6 ORtg (Orlando actually outscored them in the series). Dwight's entire supporting cast pretty much vanished in that series, though.


I could just give another year of Karl Malone my 3rd ballot (or even my 2nd ballot, for that matter), but it's more fun to spread it around, so......

3rd ballot - '75 Artis Gilmore
Was the team's leading scorer [by a significant margin] in both rs and the playoffs while also leading them in shooting efficiency in the rs (2nd to an 11.1 mpg player in the playoffs). Simultaneously anchored a #1-rated -6.4 rDRTG (they were #1 in the ABA in both DREB% and opp eFG%).
One can question the competitiveness of the ABA, though I don't think it was terribly far off the NBA at that time, and at any rate: look what^^^ he did to the league. If he did that in the NBA of the early 80's, we'd have voted him in at least 5-6 places ago.

fwiw, the Colonels rolled to a title (13-3 playoff record) with Gilmore averaging 24 and 18 in the playoffs.

Defensively he's a long and imposing physical presence underneath while on offense having a knack for getting deep paint touches and finishing well.


I could be swayed to any number of other candidates (Davis, Harden, Baylor, McAdoo, or again: some other year of Malone [or Howard]), but now I'll give the shout out to Gilmore.

Trex, looking at the 2015 peaks project, you voted 15’ Davis over 11’ Howard. What changed your opinion, or were you guilty a bit of recency bias?

[liamliam1234]

That sounds like a concern more if we we’re voting him in the top 20 and not top 35ish instead.

His annihilation of the Blazers was quite impressive imo. They were surprisingly good defensively that year(8th ranked), and Davis tore them up for 33/12 on 65 ts% in a sweep. He was a little disappointing against the Warriors but i kind of recall him getting swarmed in that series, idk i’d have to rewatch. But I don’t see it as a big deal for someone going in the 30s for peak. Gilmore and Reed certainly never had to perform like that on offense, nor were they capable.

Again, Reed put up 25 points per game on over 7% rTS over two series against Wes Unseld and Bill Russell. That is immensely more impressive than Davis tearing apart the Blazers and then having a misstep against Draymond and... whoever started at centre.

And Gilmore was an even better offensive player than Reed, albeit without that level of competition.

It is the Giannis thing. Yeah, maybe on paper or in the regular season they have some huge regular season advantage on offence, but I do not care if it does not manifest when it matters most.

[No-more-rings]

That sounds like a concern more if we we’re voting him in the top 20 and not top 35ish instead.

His annihilation of the Blazers was quite impressive imo. They were surprisingly good defensively that year(8th ranked), and Davis tore them up for 33/12 on 65 ts% in a sweep. He was a little disappointing against the Warriors but i kind of recall him getting swarmed in that series, idk i’d have to rewatch. But I don’t see it as a big deal for someone going in the 30s for peak. Gilmore and Reed certainly never had to perform like that on offense, nor were they capable.

Again, Reed put up 25 points per game on over 8% rTS over two series against Wes Unseld and Bill Russell. That is immensely more impressive than Davis tearing apart the Blazers and then having a misstep against Draymond and... whoever started at centre.

And Gilmore was an even better offensive player than Reed, albeit without that level of competition.

It is the Giannis thing. Yeah, maybe on paper or in the regular season they have some huge regular season advantage on offence, but I do not care if it does not manifest when it matters most.

Big deal.

Amare put up 37 ppg on high efficiency against Duncan, I don’t know how much more value I should put in it just because it was done against a team with an all time defender on it. It could be due to some random variance, or the type of attention they got or what ever.

You can’t seriously compare Davis series against the Warriors similar to Giannis vs the Bucks. Players are allowed to have a bad series or an outstanding one and it could just be variance like i said. KD got voted in pretty high, and he had 2 mediocre series against the Grizzlies and Spurs. If we applied strictly playoff performance there’s no way he’d go that high, but that’s just not how it works.

[liamliam1234]

Big deal.

Amare put up 37 ppg on high efficiency against Duncan

Seriously? Even ignoring Duncan’s injury, there is a clear difference between Amar’e doing that with Steve Nash overseeing the offence and providing negative defensive value. Willis Reed was a superb defender, and I would say the indications are he was more defensively impactful than what Davis has exhibited. What a dishonest comparison.

I don’t know how much more value I should put in it just because it was done against a team with an all time defender on it. It could be due to some random variance, or the type of attention they got or what ever.
...
Players are allowed to have a bad series or an outstanding one and it could just be variance like i said.

Which is why it is relevant that the very next year he won a championship.

Do you seriously not understand why it is more impressive to put up offensive numbers against top-tier defences than against mediocre or mildly positive ones? What exactly is Davis’s playoff sample anyway?

Yes, players are “allowed” to have a bad series — Kobe was bad against the Celtics in 2008, Dirk was bad against the Heat in 2011, Garnett was not great against the Lakers in 2004, Robertson was not great against the Celtics in 1964 — but when it makes up such a large proportion of their sample, as it does with Davis, yeah, that is going to matter to me.

If that bothers you less, fine, by all means, but I have been very, very, very consistent in saying how I judge peak performance predominantly off how the player translated their performance to the playoffs.

You can’t seriously compare Davis series against the Warriors similar to Giannis vs the Bucks.

Presuming you mean Raptors, that takes us back to quality of defensive opposition. And again, defensive gap between Giannis and Davis.

KD got voted in pretty high, and he had 2 mediocre series against the Grizzlies and Spurs. If we applied strictly playoff performance there’s no way he’d go that high, but that’s just not how it works.

Oh, were we assigned a recipe? My mistake.

Vote for yourself, not off the rest of the project. A bunch of the Durant backers are gone. And I never voted for him. Because of those playoffs, I would not have voted for that year at all. I would have probably gone with 2013, but even then, nowhere near that early. I was stuck voting for Nash for ten rounds. What does that tell you about how I felt about the project’s selections during that chunk? Giannis was just admitted, without me voting for him, and I said I would have taken Giannis ahead of Durant. For me, Durant is Harden and KMalone and Davis tier, and you want to say I should vote for them because other people voted him in way too early? How does that make sense?

Look, man, I understand it is frustrating to have been stuck voting for Harden for so long. I know. Cecil knows. It sucks. But there are better routes to go about arguing for him or whoever you support with your third vote. You are better off arguing why Harden generally deserves a vote over Davis or KMalone or Howard than whatever your strategy is in arguing over my (at this point securely established) standards. I agree it looks ridiculous for KMalone to be so far behind Barkley, and Harden to be so far behind Durant, but that is the issue with multiple voters splitting their values. I do not know why you expect me to compromise my own to simply make the list look like we all agreed more than we did.

I think you are somewhat biased against older players, and I can appreciate that, but I would hope you could appreciate the reverse. So stick to what you know and compare him with guys belonging to, or at least closer to, his era.

[trex_8063]

Trex, looking at the 2015 peaks project, you voted 15’ Davis over 11’ Howard. What changed your opinion, or were you guilty a bit of recency bias?

It's possible.
But really nothing much has changed. At that time I had Anthony Davis as my 2nd ballot in the #29 thread, then had Howard as my 3rd ballot in the #30 thread. So, very much in the same tier.

Although I've voted Malone/Howard/Gilmore here, I've noted for multiple threads now that I think any number of others are good candidates at this point [even stated I could be swayed to switch a ballot here].......and among those other good candidates, I've consistently listed Anthony Davis.

I honestly don't feel particularly strongly between Howard, Gilmore, AD, Harden, Baylor, McAdoo [even Malone, who I have as my 1st ballot, doesn't really separate himself from this group]. They're all very similar tier for peaks, to me. It's an almost whimsical game of yahtzee [names instead of numbers] at this point on the list; I'm just grasping at 2-3 names from the pile so I can have a vote.

[cecilthesheep]

1. 1997 Karl Malone - switching back lol. Most of his standard and advanced stats for the reg season peak here. I've decided to stick with my opinion that the playoff run was fine.

2. 1998 Karl Malone - best playoff run of the three years probably. I think he was pretty much the same player from 96-98 or so, so this is extremely close.

3. 1996 Karl Malone - again, pretty much the same guy, different year.

I'll be voting for '11 Dwight next, unless convinced otherwise.

[No-more-rings]

Seriously? Even ignoring Duncan’s injury, there is a clear difference between Amar’e doing that with Steve Nash overseeing the offence and providing negative defensive value. Willis Reed was a superb defender, and I would say the indications are he was more defensively impactful than what Davis has exhibited. What a dishonest comparison.

Easy now. The Duncan injury was overblown. I mean to play almost 38 mpg over the playoffs and average roughly 24/12 with a 25 PER, I’m going to question how much he was held back by it. Is that not fair?

Don’t really doubt that Reed was better on defense, but he wasn’t the best player on his title teams, or at best perhaps even with Walt on the first one, so I just don’t see what you’re getting at with the penalization of Davis. Reed had Walt and he wasn’t going against anything like the 18 Warriors, sorry.

I’m not overacting to a few short series when he overall in his prime was a 20-22 ppg player in a weaker era than Davis, by far I might add.

Which is why it is relevant that the very next year he won a championship.

Where his ts% that you propped up fell to just 50.7 % which was a bit below average for that time.

Do you seriously not understand why it is more impressive to put up offensive numbers against top-tier defences than against mediocre or mildly positive ones?

Which is what Davis did in 2015? Nothing got worse about his game in 2018 which led to a worse performance. I’m going to go back and look at a few of those games and see what went on, but again it’s likely just variance which all players are adept to, and not because he was exposed or whatever.

What exactly is Davis’s playoff sample anyway?

I admitted it’s pretty small, but when we finally got that full playoff run from Reed he seemed to be overall worse than when the samples were just smaller.

Davis we don’t know how he’d perform over 3-4 series, but we can try to speculate I guess.

Yes, players are “allowed” to have a bad series — Kobe was bad against the Celtics in 2008, Dirk was bad against the Heat in 2011, Garnett was not great against the Lakers in 2004, Robertson was not great against the Celtics in 1964 — but when it makes up such a large proportion of their sample, as it does with Davis, yeah, that is going to matter to me.

He was great in 2 series, and mediocre in another, what are you talking about?

Presuming you mean Raptors, that takes us back to quality of defensive opposition. And again, defensive gap between Giannis and Davis.

I voted Giannis ahead of him, so that’s fine. But I’m just saying, Davis has much more range so you can’t really do to him what they did to Giannis. Doesn’t make him better overall of course.

You are better off arguing why Harden generally deserves a vote over Davis or KMalone or Howard than whatever your strategy is

I’ll keep voting Harden, but I’ve kind of accepted that I’m probably not going to change any minds, whether it’s because I’m not doing a good enough job, or because people have their minds set on their guys, Idk for sure. Probably a bit of both realistically.

I think you are somewhat biased against older players, and I can appreciate that

A little perhaps, but not to the extreme of others. I’m not about the “look what they did vs their competition”. The Mikan vote, while I understand the reasoning, is a joke imo. Probably the worst of the project so far(no offense Mikan voters).

Anyway, I’m probably going with Dwight over Davis and them anyway. With him, his playoff sample isn’t small and he pretty consistently performed well.

[No-more-rings]

..

Btw answer this separate if you want but i need to ask.

With your heavy weight on playoff performance and how they do vs high level competition. Why aren’t you looking at say 2015 Harden?

He didn’t have a bad series that year, and dude put up 28/8/6 on 63 ts% against the 1st ranked defense Warriors. People will nitpick his turnovers in that last game, but let’s face it they were overmatched. Dwight was a maybe 2/3 of his Orlando self in those playoffs, and Harden did what he could imo.