The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
- yoyoboy
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
I think everyone overrated him last year based on the success of the Raptors. But seeing his much improved playmaking this season and a little rejuvenation on the defensive end, I think he now might just be the best player in the league.
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I think he's not only the best player in the league since 2017 but right now is peaking higher than ever and is playing at GOAT level. The only thing that could stop him is his health. Once PG returns, Clippers will be wiping the floor with teams.
Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
freethedevil wrote:Woodsanity wrote:Kawhi's playmaking has been gradually improving the past few years. He was a pretty mediocre playmaker in his first few years in the league. Right now he is a serviceable at worse, maybe even pretty good as a playmaker. And that is a big deal considering that was his only major flaw as an offensive player.
You won't find many who will say Kawhi Leonard's defense is a "major flaw". Thats pretty insane to say to be honest. Yes his Raptors tenure had him playing mediocre defense but his he has been a good overall defender at worst for most of his career. His Raptors tenure was more of an aberration defensively and I give him a pass there since he was still adjusting to a new team and coming off an injury.
Only the playoffs separate the true great ones and frauds.
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
Woodsanity wrote:freethedevil wrote:Woodsanity wrote:Kawhi's playmaking has been gradually improving the past few years. He was a pretty mediocre playmaker in his first few years in the league. Right now he is a serviceable at worse, maybe even pretty good as a playmaker. And that is a big deal considering that was his only major flaw as an offensive player.
You won't find many who will say Kawhi Leonard's defense is a "major flaw". Thats pretty insane to say to be honest. Yes his Raptors tenure had him playing mediocre defense but his he has been a good overall defender at worst for most of his career. His Raptors tenure was more of an aberration defensively and I give him a pass there since he was still adjusting to a new team and coming off an injury.
we're talking about current kawhi right? His off ball D has been a major flaw. As for adjusting to a new team his defense is still as non-impactful as it was last rs and playoffs. And this time he's not going to have an all-nba wall to let him focus exclusively on man coverage
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
Ballings7 wrote:As expected, since mid-late playoffs last year, he began increasing his facilitating production and consistency and carried that into this season. People were getting on him in the bucks and warriors series, and the next bunch of games he upped his facilitating frequency.
That's literally the exact oppoite of what happened. In the first 14 games of the playoffs the raptors tried to run their offense through him like a giannis, curry, or a jokic. Then from game 3 on, they ran the offense through toronto's gluttony of playmakers, primarily lowry. The raptors offense stopped looking like the 18 cavs, and started looking more like the 14 spurs, and consequently, they won a title.
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his assists are already plummeting and his ball-stopping tendencies are once again taking over. Clippers fans can confirm? Pity because he's a capable passer; I think often he doesn't want to come out of his comfort zone (scoring has become his bread and butter) or he doesn't understand the advantages that his playmaking brings to his team's offense. Doc should be more assertive ...
"La natura gode della natura; la natura trionfa sulla natura; la natura domina la natura" - Ostanes
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
AdagioPace wrote:his assists are already plummeting and his ball-stopping tendencies are once again taking over. Clippers fans can confirm? Pity because he's a capable passer; I think often he doesn't want to come out of his comfort zone (scoring has become his bread and butter) or he doesn't understand the advantages that his playmaking brings to his team's offense. Doc should be more assertive ...
They faced top 2 defensive teams and are ranked 2nd in offense. Leonard is at 29 PPG, a 40% usage, 10.5 TOV%, 9.0 OBPM these are goat level numbers if he continues this. Its not his fault he has to carry a terrible offensive starting lineup. Doc somehow keeps playing Patterson over Green and its killing the teams offense to start games, Beverly is a 4 3pa guy shooting 12%. So they have 2 starters who are not even NBA offense material and Leonard still is 5-1 record beating the top 2 defensive teams, 2nd ranked offense, leads the team in assists, rebounds, steals and even at 1 block a game?
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
freethedevil wrote:Ballings7 wrote:As expected, since mid-late playoffs last year, he began increasing his facilitating production and consistency and carried that into this season. People were getting on him in the bucks and warriors series, and the next bunch of games he upped his facilitating frequency.
That's literally the exact oppoite of what happened. In the first 14 games of the playoffs the raptors tried to run their offense through him like a giannis, curry, or a jokic. Then from game 3 on, they ran the offense through toronto's gluttony of playmakers, primarily lowry. The raptors offense stopped looking like the 18 cavs, and started looking more like the 14 spurs, and consequently, they won a title.
Actually, no its not... the media talk about him on ESPN and Fox about his playmaking during those series, from early in the Bucks series time period, was almost immediately followed by an increase in his playmaking numbers and production, in numerous games in both series (Bucks/Warriors), by Kawhi.
Every single game? No.. but overall, the collection of games from G3 Bucks ECF and forward, there was a notable consistent increase in the focus on his playmaking, and production there, additionally. There were a few games where he didn't have much of an impact or just couldn't, and some of the other Raptors were simply missing shots they'd normally be making (excluding the good defense from Milwaukee). Many remarked about this, as well.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01/gamelog/2019/
From the standpoint of "People saying Kawhi isn't a capable/productive playmaker and passer" talk around that time hitting its peak, which they were across the scene of coverage of the Raptors series up to that point, making points about it, or passively being a "knock" on him... Kawhi proved them all wrong with his play around that time in the playoffs, which in turn, helped Toronto's offense become more dangerous.
Kawhi's offensive production from a scoring and passing standpoint, was key to their success in the Bucks series and Warriors series, along with the rest of the team. Kawhi was one of those playmakers in both series that helped their offense expand.
You're making my point, but not giving Kawhi credit for his play setting others up, in how Toronto's offense changed largely in part because of how Kawhi was being used in the adjustment by Nurse.
This already transpired, so it doesn't really matter.
The Playoffs don't care about your Analytics
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
freethedevil wrote:Ballings7 wrote:As expected, since mid-late playoffs last year, he began increasing his facilitating production and consistency and carried that into this season. People were getting on him in the bucks and warriors series, and the next bunch of games he upped his facilitating frequency.
That's literally the exact oppoite of what happened. In the first 14 games of the playoffs the raptors tried to run their offense through him like a giannis, curry, or a jokic. Then from game 3 on, they ran the offense through toronto's gluttony of playmakers, primarily lowry. The raptors offense stopped looking like the 18 cavs, and started looking more like the 14 spurs, and consequently, they won a title.
Raps squad was incredibly underrated and still only won due to major injuries
An all star pg who can shoot, make plays, play really good defense, take charges, and hustle for those 50/50 balls
A great 3 and d guard in Green who had one of his best years
A PF who was an all star 2nd half of the year and is putting up 26 ppg rn.
An elite defensive C who knows where to be on the floor, can hit the 3, and is a great passing big
A stretch 4/5 who is an elite mid range shooter and can block shots
A spark plug scrappy bench guard who was playing great defense, was on fire the whole series, and hit numerous big shots to close a couple of games when Kawhi wasn't the same guy as last couple of series
Still had OG (sick), Powell, and Mccaw
Main thing about the raps is legit everyone, including their bigs, could shoot it and play defense. I don't see one guy in the top 7, who played basically all the min, who can't play defense and be respectable at least shooting it
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
Ballings7 wrote:freethedevil wrote:Ballings7 wrote:As expected, since mid-late playoffs last year, he began increasing his facilitating production and consistency and carried that into this season. People were getting on him in the bucks and warriors series, and the next bunch of games he upped his facilitating frequency.
That's literally the exact oppoite of what happened. In the first 14 games of the playoffs the raptors tried to run their offense through him like a giannis, curry, or a jokic. Then from game 3 on, they ran the offense through toronto's gluttony of playmakers, primarily lowry. The raptors offense stopped looking like the 18 cavs, and started looking more like the 14 spurs, and consequently, they won a title.
was almost immediately followed by an increase in his playmaking numbers and production,
His offensive load and box creation reduced. I don't care about his assist numbers. KD has averaged more assists than steph, steph and dray still run the offense, not kd. Playmaking is creating shots, it isn't making a simple final pass once your teammates have already moved the defense for you. Also lol at whining about the media. The media tried to act like Kawhi didn't have a fantastic supporting cast, built a narrative of him as an elite defender, made it seem like the warriors without kd or cousins should reasonable expected to beat the bucks or raps and then used box stats to comapre kawhi and curry in the final without bothering to mention the vast difference in the quality of defense they faced.
If it wasn't for the media's riduclously biased coverage, kawhi wouldn't be considered the best in the world.
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Number 1 offense in the league
Terrible offensive cast
Playing at a GOAT level
PER gonna stay at 33
What a ride it's gonna be
Terrible offensive cast
Playing at a GOAT level
PER gonna stay at 33
What a ride it's gonna be
Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
I feel since this offseason most Kawhi takes are so overcharged with some agenda, that it's pretty difficult to have a serious conversation about him in this place.
His playmaking is good, it's ever improving and he's comfortable and good enough to run a top 10/ top 5-ish offense through him. At least with the current Clippers configuration it is. He will not have a 7APG season any time soon, that is clear now and should've been after the 3 games where he had a lot of assists, but his playmaking has not "plummeted" or been any worse in the last few games. He's been creating mismatches and defensive breakdowns in similar amounts all season, the fact that he has less assists in the last few games is due to many factors, most of them not having to do with his playmaking ability.
His off ball defense is fine, as fine as it ever was. His current defensive problems come from two places: lack of effort in the regular season and less mobility since his injury. The latter was true last season as well, while the former is something that was happening already in the last few years in San Antonio, and something every star goes through as the offensive load increases. But his awareness is as good as ever, and his instincts for deflections or outright taking the ball away from someone's hands are still great, he's still a bull that you can't ever back down or take down with a screen, and generally most of his skills are there. It's just a matter of effort that will come back when he feels it's important, just as it did last season and the season before that.
His playmaking is good, it's ever improving and he's comfortable and good enough to run a top 10/ top 5-ish offense through him. At least with the current Clippers configuration it is. He will not have a 7APG season any time soon, that is clear now and should've been after the 3 games where he had a lot of assists, but his playmaking has not "plummeted" or been any worse in the last few games. He's been creating mismatches and defensive breakdowns in similar amounts all season, the fact that he has less assists in the last few games is due to many factors, most of them not having to do with his playmaking ability.
His off ball defense is fine, as fine as it ever was. His current defensive problems come from two places: lack of effort in the regular season and less mobility since his injury. The latter was true last season as well, while the former is something that was happening already in the last few years in San Antonio, and something every star goes through as the offensive load increases. But his awareness is as good as ever, and his instincts for deflections or outright taking the ball away from someone's hands are still great, he's still a bull that you can't ever back down or take down with a screen, and generally most of his skills are there. It's just a matter of effort that will come back when he feels it's important, just as it did last season and the season before that.
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
I agree that at this point Kawhi is underrated by many posters on PC Board. He's not GOAT or anything, but saying that he's terrible defender or that he hasn't improved his playmaking is ridiculous. He's also very good off-ball player and his isolation game is getting more and more refined.
It's just beginning of the season, but with what I already know about him and how he plays know, reaching top 20 peak ever doesn't look out of question. The only thing that separates him from someone like Kobe is complete peak - MVP-level RS and great playoffs (also huge gap in longevity but that's not my point here).
After bitter summer for Kawhi from me, I'm getting back as a Leonard fan again. Because of all these ridiculous discussions, I forgot how exciting to watch he really is.
It's just beginning of the season, but with what I already know about him and how he plays know, reaching top 20 peak ever doesn't look out of question. The only thing that separates him from someone like Kobe is complete peak - MVP-level RS and great playoffs (also huge gap in longevity but that's not my point here).
After bitter summer for Kawhi from me, I'm getting back as a Leonard fan again. Because of all these ridiculous discussions, I forgot how exciting to watch he really is.
Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
QRich3 wrote:I feel since this offseason most Kawhi takes are so overcharged with some agenda, that it's pretty difficult to have a serious conversation about him in this place.
His playmaking is good, it's ever improving and he's comfortable and good enough to run a top 10/ top 5-ish offense through him. At least with the current Clippers configuration it is. He will not have a 7APG season any time soon, that is clear now and should've been after the 3 games where he had a lot of assists, but his playmaking has not "plummeted" or been any worse in the last few games. He's been creating mismatches and defensive breakdowns in similar amounts all season, the fact that he has less assists in the last few games is due to many factors, most of them not having to do with his playmaking ability.
His off ball defense is fine, as fine as it ever was. His current defensive problems come from two places: lack of effort in the regular season and less mobility since his injury. The latter was true last season as well, while the former is something that was happening already in the last few years in San Antonio, and something every star goes through as the offensive load increases. But his awareness is as good as ever, and his instincts for deflections or outright taking the ball away from someone's hands are still great, he's still a bull that you can't ever back down or take down with a screen, and generally most of his skills are there. It's just a matter of effort that will come back when he feels it's important, just as it did last season and the season before that.
Pretty much this. Can't believe there are posters silly enough to act like Kawhi Leonard is a turnstile on defense. Yes he isn't DPOY level anymore like he was in the past but he isn't below average even on off ball defense. He is still above average on D overall.
In terms of passing he isn't going to go from below average-average to elite just like that. Right now he is a decent-pretty good passer. He isn't going to average 7 apg like you said but certainly more than the 3 or less he had in the past.
Only the playoffs separate the true great ones and frauds.
Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
Baski wrote:Number 1 offense in the league
Terrible offensive cast
Playing at a GOAT level
PER gonna stay at 33
What a ride it's gonna be
And after Kawhi baptizes LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, all the "old" excuses will be coming.
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Baski wrote:Number 1 offense in the league
Terrible offensive cast
Playing at a GOAT level
PER gonna stay at 33
What a ride it's gonna be
And after Kawhi baptizes LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, all the "old" excuses will be coming.
Well, even assuming that will happen, what will it prove? That peak Kawhi is better than almost 36 years old James? I hope so, he's great player after all.
It's like saying that Kareem beating Wilt in 1971 proved anything - it didn't...
Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
70sFan wrote:I agree that at this point Kawhi is underrated by many posters on PC Board. He's not GOAT or anything, but saying that he's terrible defender or that he hasn't improved his playmaking is ridiculous. He's also very good off-ball player and his isolation game is getting more and more refined.
It's just beginning of the season, but with what I already know about him and how he plays know, reaching top 20 peak ever doesn't look out of question. The only thing that separates him from someone like Kobe is complete peak - MVP-level RS and great playoffs (also huge gap in longevity but that's not my point here).
After bitter summer for Kawhi from me, I'm getting back as a Leonard fan again. Because of all these ridiculous discussions, I forgot how exciting to watch he really is.
Top 20? You are underselling him, if he retires today he would be top 20. 2 defensive player of the years, two finals MVP with 1 as clear cut best player and another as at worst 2nd best and his peak is much higher than any 20-30 guy. Leonard already has been arguably best player in the NBA for three different years, whether it was reg season or playoffs.
2016 - Best defensive player in the league, 20 PPG scorer, best player on a 67 win team. Anybody who does that has a case as best player.
2017\2019 speak for itself.
Now if he stays on his current 2019-20 pace until he's 30 years old, i would consider him a clear cut top 10 goat. Anything he does in his 30s starts putting him in the top 5 range or better.
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
70sFan wrote:HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Baski wrote:Number 1 offense in the league
Terrible offensive cast
Playing at a GOAT level
PER gonna stay at 33
What a ride it's gonna be
And after Kawhi baptizes LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, all the "old" excuses will be coming.
Well, even assuming that will happen, what will it prove? That peak Kawhi is better than almost 36 years old James? I hope so, he's great player after all.
It's like saying that Kareem beating Wilt in 1971 proved anything - it didn't...
Lebron is still actually performing like an MVP level player. This is not like 2013 when Lebron beat Duncan who was playing at Roy Hibbert level during the finals.
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:70sFan wrote:HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
And after Kawhi baptizes LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, all the "old" excuses will be coming.
Well, even assuming that will happen, what will it prove? That peak Kawhi is better than almost 36 years old James? I hope so, he's great player after all.
It's like saying that Kareem beating Wilt in 1971 proved anything - it didn't...
Lebron is still actually performing like an MVP level player. This is not like 2013 when Lebron beat Duncan who was playing at Roy Hibbert level during the finals.
Well, Hibbert was an All defensive 2nd team and All Star once, if that's what you mean. And...so was Duncan in 2013, 7th in MVP, 13th DPOY, 1st All NBA and 2nd All D.
And it's not like Kawhi dominated LeBron in their season opener. Actually, Green did a pretty good job stopping him, he was 15/3/3 with 6 TO's and 4 PF's shooting just 4-for-12 in 21 minutes against Green. With Green on the bench he had 15 on 6-for-7 with 0 TO's.
Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
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Re: The 2019-20 Kawhi Leonard Thread
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Baski wrote:Number 1 offense in the league
Terrible offensive cast
Playing at a GOAT level
PER gonna stay at 33
What a ride it's gonna be
And after Kawhi baptizes LeBron in the 2020 playoffs, all the "old" excuses will be coming.
Were you trying to make a point?