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#33 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

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#33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:03 pm

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08
21) Tracy McGrady 2002-03
22) Moses Malone 1982-83
23) Patrick Ewing 1989-90
24) Kevin Durant 2013-14
25) Russell Westbrook 2016-17
26) Charles Barkley 1992-93
27) Kawhi Leonard 2018-19
28) Chris Paul 2007-08
29) George Mikan 1948-49
30) Steve Nash 2004-05
31) Giannis Antetokounmpo 2018-19
32) Karl Malone 1996-97

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.

Deadline: 6pm October 30 Eastern Time

The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:40 am

Barry 75, epic carry job
Frazier 73, orchestrated one of the most team oriented teams of all time
Pettit 58, possibly the greatest 4th quarter Finals performance of all time to carry St Louis past the Celtics (Russell injured or it would be higher)
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#3 » by euroleague » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:12 am

Isiah Thomas 90 - one of the most dominant teams ever, with him as the engine and floor general who led it
Rick Barry 75 - by far the biggest carry job left
Bob McAdoo 75 - dominant offensive force who had an elite regular season and post season. The Dirk of the 70s
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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#4 » by No-more-rings » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:59 pm

No-more-rings wrote:1. 19 Harden- Same reasoning as before, highly efficient volume scorer, creative playmaker, carried the Rockets to 53 wins and 2nd ranked offense with a declining Paul, and the worst cast he's had since 2016.

2. 2018 Harden- Going with this on the belief he's 98% of his 2019 self, just didn't have the same green light or didn't need it.

3. 2011 Dwight: Same reasoning Trex gave pretty much, dominant defensive player, and there’s plenty of reason to believe he was a quite good offensive player too.

I think Dwight often gets underrated on this board, because of how much he fell off after Orlando, but from like 08-12, he looked like he was on his way to being the next great center, especially since he was only like 25 or 26 in that last year? I don’t think his offense was ever going to be good enough to reach like Shaq or Hakeem level, but he definitely had like top 25 or 30ish career potential.
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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#5 » by No-more-rings » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:12 pm

euroleague wrote:Isiah Thomas 90 - one of the most dominant teams ever, with him as the engine and floor general who led it

The 90s Pistons were hardly some all time great team. They were 4th in SRS in that very season, and only 11th in offense with 59 wins. And I'm not sure their playoff performance really suggests it either. 5 loses, a 7 game series, point differential doesn't seem historically good, etc. Didn't have to play a 60 win team.

On top of that, Thomas' individual performance doesn't exactly back up a spot here either.

20.5/5.5/8.2 56 ts% 21 PER..4.8 OBPM

Pretty good numbers, but not as good as some guys still left on the ballot.

What is Thomas' argument this high aside from, "he beat Jordan!, Magic and Bird!"?
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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:55 pm

I'm still waiting for convincing argument for Thomas over Frazier. Frazier is much better defender, better scorer and much more consistent playoffs performer. What is Isiah case here?
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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#7 » by trex_8063 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:50 pm

1st ballot - '11 Dwight Howard
Really a bit of an athletic freak: though only about 6'9" without shoes, he has kinda long arms/reach, freakish ups for a guy that size, and a tremendous amount of strength (particularly in the upper body). Decent foot-speed for his size, too.

On offense, he put that athleticism to good use mostly by way of offensive rebounding (where he was near '19 Rudy Gobert territory), and in finishing at the rim. He's basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from <3 ft in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load between the two years, and often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). His FTAr is a ridiculous .877 in '11 (is higher other years), as teams adopted a hack-a-Shaq strategy when he got the ball deep under the rim (because he was basically unstoppable otherwise if you let him get the rock that low).
He also by this point had a little bit of a simple jump-hook (with either hand) that he used quite regularly (was probably at his peak form for this particular move in '11).
He otherwise doesn't have much going for him offensively: has no jump-shot or range to speak, limited [though not terrible] FT shooter, limited repertoire of post-moves outside of the one I mentioned, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover-prone.

Still, to be clear, I'm not trying to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier of finishers when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. And if taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell.
The Magic structured their offense around his inside presence, often spreading the floor with four shooters around him, essentially daring teams to not guard him one-on-one.

And defensively, well......while he doesn't have the footwork or IQ of someone like Tim Duncan [by a long shot], his athleticism again can make up for a multitude of sins (both his, or those of teammates). He anchored a -5.3 rDRTG with a cast of [in descending order of minutes]: Jameer Nelson, Brandon Bass, Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu, JJ Redick, Ryan Anderson, aging Gilbert Arenas, and Quentin Richardson. They were #1 in the league in DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%. Those points literally scream that peak Dwight was an all-time level defensive anchor.

They were also above average offensively with that cast, btw, and won 52 games with a +4.92 SRS. They lost in the first round [6 games] to a good Hawks team, but can't lay it on Dwight: although he did avg 5.5 topg in the series, he also averaged 27 ppg on 67.7% TS and grabbed 15.5 rpg, while helping to hold the Hawks to lowly 101.6 ORtg (Orlando actually outscored them in the series). Dwight's entire supporting cast pretty much vanished in that series, though.


2nd ballot - '75 Artis Gilmore
Was the team's leading scorer [by a significant margin] in both rs and the playoffs while also leading them in shooting efficiency in the rs (2nd to an 11.1 mpg player in the playoffs). Simultaneously anchored a #1-rated -6.4 rDRTG (they were #1 in the ABA in both DREB% and opp eFG%).
One can question the competitiveness of the ABA, though I don't think it was terribly far off the NBA at that time, and at any rate: look what^^^ he did to the league. If he did that in the NBA of the early 80's, we'd have voted him in at least 5-6 places ago.

fwiw, the Colonels rolled to a title (13-3 playoff record) with Gilmore averaging 24 and 18 in the playoffs.

Defensively he's a long and imposing physical presence underneath while on offense having a knack for getting deep paint touches and finishing well.


Could go a number of ways with the 3rd ballot (or 1st/2nd), but I'm gonna go with......
3rd ballot - '15 Anthony Davis
Excellent two-way player, led a mediocre cast to 45 wins and playoff berth in a tough conference. Got swept by a vastly superior team in the playoffs, but he put up monster numbers, keeping them competitive in 2-3 of the games.


I could be swayed to any number of other candidates: most notably Harden, Baylor, McAdoo, or some other year of Howard or Anthony Davis ('18). Connie Hawkins, Bob Pettit, as well as some classic Knicks [Willis Reed and Walt Frazier] are looking OK to me at this point, too (along with perhaps Kevin McHale or Elton Brand???).
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Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#8 » by Narigo » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:54 pm

    1. 19 James Harden
    2. 73 Walt Frazier
    3. 70 Willis Reed

    :o
    Whats the argyment for howard over Reed? Reed was a better better post up player and shooter thanvHoward ever was. Defense is comparable also imo. 70 Reed anchored the best defensive tram in the league by a wide margin
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    Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

    Post#9 » by trex_8063 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:57 pm

    Narigo wrote:
      1. 19 James Harden
      2. 73 Walt Frazier
      3. 70 Willis Reed

      :o
      Whats the argyment for howard over Reed? Reed was a better better post up player and shooter thanvHoward ever was. Defense is comparable also imo. 70 Reed anchored the best defensive tram in the league by a wide margin


      Some might argue that Reed co-anchored the best defense with Walt Frazier (EDIT: and Dave DeBusschere). At any rate, even if we conclude Reed was the best defensive player for the '70 Knicks, I'm sure we'd all agree Frazier/DeBusschere were a substantially better 2nd/3rd-best defenders than what Howard had with the '11 Magic [Rashard Lewis and maybe aging Vince Carter???]; and yet the '70 Knick rDRTG was only -1.3 better than that of the '11 Magic.

      Reed is the smarter, more positionally-aware team defender, probably a better pnr defender to my [limited] eye, and probably a better low-post defender, too. But he's not in Howard's tier as a rim protector or as a defensive rebounder (and I'd note the '11 Magic were 1st in the league DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%).
      So overall I'd still rate peak Howard the better defender.

      Offensively, Reed has more effective post moves (though it's not like he's Kevin McHale down there) and obviously better range [spreads the floor a bit] and FT-shooting. He's probably a slightly better passer, too, but not really in a way that shifts the needle much.
      Meanwhile, Dwight Howard is a FAR more devastating finisher at the rim with a much higher foul-draw rate and also a better offensive rebounder. imo, those things bring him close to Reed offensively. One could even argue that his high% scoring, interior gravity, offensive rebounding, and foul-pressure he put on opponents makes him even marginally MORE valuable offensively than Reed. Don't know that I'd necessarily agree with that, but it's not at all absurd to suggest.

      They're close overall.
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      Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

      Post#10 » by cecilthesheep » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:33 pm

      trex_8063 wrote:
      Narigo wrote:
        1. 19 James Harden
        2. 73 Walt Frazier
        3. 70 Willis Reed

        :o
        Whats the argyment for howard over Reed? Reed was a better better post up player and shooter thanvHoward ever was. Defense is comparable also imo. 70 Reed anchored the best defensive tram in the league by a wide margin


        Some might argue that Reed co-anchored the best defense with Walt Frazier. At any rate, even if we conclude Reed was the best defensive player for the '70 Knicks, I'm sure we'd all agree Frazier was a substantially better 2nd-best defender than what Howard had with the '11 Magic [Rashard Lewis, probably??].
        Reed is the smarter, more positionally-aware team defender, probably a better pnr defender to my [limited] eye, and probably a better low-post defender, too. But he's not in Howard's tier as a rim protector or as a defensive rebounder (and I'd note the '11 Magic were 1st in the league DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%).
        So overall I'd still rate him the slightly better defender than Willis Reed.

        Offensively, Reed has more effective post moves (though it's not like he's Kevin McHale down there) and obviously better range [spreads the floor a bit] and FT-shooting. He's probably a slightly better passer, too, but not really in a way that shifts the needle much.
        Meanwhile, Dwight Howard is a FAR more devastating finisher at the rim with a much higher foul-draw rate and also a better offensive rebounder. imo, those things bring him close to Reed offensively. One could even argue that his high% scoring, interior gravity, offensive rebounding, and foul-pressure he put on opponents makes him even marginally MORE valuable offensively than Reed. Don't know that I'd necessarily agree with that, but it's not at all absurd to suggest.

        They're close overall.

        Lots of great points here; I'd add that from a purely numbers-based standpoint, Dwight seems to come off as a better scorer than Reed if there's any difference at all. '70 Reed scored 20.5 points per 36 on +4.1 rTS%, while '11 Dwight scored 21.9 per 36 in a far slower era on +7.5 rTS%. Now of course Reed had more *ways* to score, but based on what they actually did it seems like Dwight's skills as a finisher and offensive rebounder made up for that.
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        Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

        Post#11 » by trex_8063 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:06 pm

        cecilthesheep wrote:
        trex_8063 wrote:
        Narigo wrote:
          1. 19 James Harden
          2. 73 Walt Frazier
          3. 70 Willis Reed

          :o
          Whats the argyment for howard over Reed? Reed was a better better post up player and shooter thanvHoward ever was. Defense is comparable also imo. 70 Reed anchored the best defensive tram in the league by a wide margin


          Some might argue that Reed co-anchored the best defense with Walt Frazier. At any rate, even if we conclude Reed was the best defensive player for the '70 Knicks, I'm sure we'd all agree Frazier was a substantially better 2nd-best defender than what Howard had with the '11 Magic [Rashard Lewis, probably??].
          Reed is the smarter, more positionally-aware team defender, probably a better pnr defender to my [limited] eye, and probably a better low-post defender, too. But he's not in Howard's tier as a rim protector or as a defensive rebounder (and I'd note the '11 Magic were 1st in the league DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%).
          So overall I'd still rate him the slightly better defender than Willis Reed.

          Offensively, Reed has more effective post moves (though it's not like he's Kevin McHale down there) and obviously better range [spreads the floor a bit] and FT-shooting. He's probably a slightly better passer, too, but not really in a way that shifts the needle much.
          Meanwhile, Dwight Howard is a FAR more devastating finisher at the rim with a much higher foul-draw rate and also a better offensive rebounder. imo, those things bring him close to Reed offensively. One could even argue that his high% scoring, interior gravity, offensive rebounding, and foul-pressure he put on opponents makes him even marginally MORE valuable offensively than Reed. Don't know that I'd necessarily agree with that, but it's not at all absurd to suggest.

          They're close overall.

          Lots of great points here; I'd add that from a purely numbers-based standpoint, Dwight seems to come off as a better scorer than Reed if there's any difference at all. '70 Reed scored 20.5 points per 36 on +4.1 rTS%, while '11 Dwight scored 21.9 per 36 in a far slower era on +7.5 rTS%. Now of course Reed had more *ways* to score, but based on what they actually did it seems like Dwight's skills as a finisher and offensive rebounder made up for that.


          If we look only at scoring rate and shooting efficiency, yeah, Howard looks like a notably better scorer overall. However, that fails to take into account [the often overlooked] turnover economies. Now, we don't have those figures for Reed, but I'm skeptical that he'd be as bad as Howard in this regard [Howard having one of the worst turnover economies of all the bigs I've evaluated]; especially considering Reed's tendency to play somewhat "outside" for his position (lots of mid-range shots, etc). This same tendency, while it tends to cap the shooting efficiency one can achieve, it does also tend to facilitate lower turnover rates (a la LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki) because you're less frequently taking the ball right into the thick of it in the paint.
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          Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

          Post#12 » by liamliam1234 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:22 pm

          Voting for 1973 Frazier over 1972 Frazier has to be the single most blatant case of “bUt hE wOn a tiTLe” reasoning I have ever seen. He was better in both the regular season and the postseason in 1972, carried his team harder, went to the Finals both years, and led a nearly as good relative playoff offence, but whoops, Willis Reed was healthy and won Finals MVP, and they made it past an injured 68-win Celtics team, so 1973 it is!

          I also think by the numbers there is a comparable phenomenon with 1970 Reed versus 1969 Reed, but at least there you can point to finals win versus semifinals loss. Which is barely a better distinction, but I know asking for two votes to change is impossibly optimistic.
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          Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

          Post#13 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:27 pm

          trex_8063 wrote:
          Narigo wrote:
            1. 19 James Harden
            2. 73 Walt Frazier
            3. 70 Willis Reed

            :o
            Whats the argyment for howard over Reed? Reed was a better better post up player and shooter thanvHoward ever was. Defense is comparable also imo. 70 Reed anchored the best defensive tram in the league by a wide margin


            Some might argue that Reed co-anchored the best defense with Walt Frazier. At any rate, even if we conclude Reed was the best defensive player for the '70 Knicks, I'm sure we'd all agree Frazier was a substantially better 2nd-best defender than what Howard had with the '11 Magic [Rashard Lewis, probably??].
            Reed is the smarter, more positionally-aware team defender, probably a better pnr defender to my [limited] eye, and probably a better low-post defender, too. But he's not in Howard's tier as a rim protector or as a defensive rebounder (and I'd note the '11 Magic were 1st in the league DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%).
            So overall I'd still rate him the slightly better defender than Willis Reed.

            Offensively, Reed has more effective post moves (though it's not like he's Kevin McHale down there) and obviously better range [spreads the floor a bit] and FT-shooting. He's probably a slightly better passer, too, but not really in a way that shifts the needle much.
            Meanwhile, Dwight Howard is a FAR more devastating finisher at the rim with a much higher foul-draw rate and also a better offensive rebounder. imo, those things bring him close to Reed offensively. One could even argue that his high% scoring, interior gravity, offensive rebounding, and foul-pressure he put on opponents makes him even marginally MORE valuable offensively than Reed. Don't know that I'd necessarily agree with that, but it's not at all absurd to suggest.

            They're close overall.

            I like Reed offensively far more than Howard, but I have different (a bit off-topic) opinion here - Frazier wasn't Knicks 2nd best defender - DeBusschere was. Dave was absolutely elite defender and I love watching his intensity. Very smart too.

            Would you disagree with me, trex?
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:31 pm

            liamliam1234 wrote:Voting for 1973 Frazier over 1972 Frazier has to be the single most blatant case of “bUt hE wOn a tiTLe” reasoning I have ever seen. He was better in both the regular season and the postseason in 1972, carried his team harder, went to the Finals both years, and led a better relative playoff offence, but whoops, Willis Reed was healthy and won Finals MVP, so 1973 it is!

            I also think by the numbers there is a comparable phenomenon with 1970 Reed versus 1969 Reed, but at least there you can point to finals win versus semifinals loss. Which is barely a better distinction, but I know asking for two votes to change is impossibly optimistic.


            With '70 Reed v '69 Reed, I think the other thing people can utilize by way of reasoning is that the '70 Knicks were a significantly better defensive team, with Reed likely being a major reason why (was utilized to some degree at PF in '69 ['cause Bellamy was present part of the year], which likely doesn't allow you to fully utilize his defensive capabilities).
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#15 » by liamliam1234 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:35 pm

            But if it is a matter of scheme and internal improvement (lest we forget Walt’s own ascension), how is that an argument for him actually being a better player?

            Especially considering how people waved away Ewing’s straight-up not good defensive metrics in 1990, lol.
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#16 » by euroleague » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:59 am

            No-more-rings wrote:
            euroleague wrote:Isiah Thomas 90 - one of the most dominant teams ever, with him as the engine and floor general who led it

            The 90s Pistons were hardly some all time great team. They were 4th in SRS in that very season, and only 11th in offense with 59 wins. And I'm not sure their playoff performance really suggests it either. 5 loses, a 7 game series, point differential doesn't seem historically good, etc. Didn't have to play a 60 win team.

            On top of that, Thomas' individual performance doesn't exactly back up a spot here either.

            20.5/5.5/8.2 56 ts% 21 PER..4.8 OBPM

            Pretty good numbers, but not as good as some guys still left on the ballot.

            What is Thomas' argument this high aside from, "he beat Jordan!, Magic and Bird!"?


            After they won in 89, Chuck Daly famously asked the team ‘can we beat any other team one time in a series, on an away game?’ The players answers yes... then Daly stated ‘so we can relax the regular season. We don’t need home court’

            Many other coaches since copied that strategy. Beating MJ/Pippen/Horace Grant with good role players is no easy task. Isiah invented the blueprint to defeating them.

            Check his playoff numbers instead of just using OBPM and ignoring his defensive leadership... 21 PER, 56%TS, 8.7 BPM, 21/6/8, 47% from 3

            The only other allstars on that team were Rodman and Dumars. Rodman got his offense purely from Isiah, and Dumars never accomplished anything without IT.

            When Isiah went down in 91, the team became so bad they wouldn’t make the playoffs, despite having other elite PGs. 1 year after they beat peak MJ and prime Pippen.

            The Knicks in the 70s could win without any single one of their stars. raptors lost Kawhi AND Green, and will likely be in the playoffs. MJ leaving in 94 didn’t affect his team hugely. LBJ leaving in 19 was huge but when he left the Heat in 14 the affect wasn’t big.

            Typically, teams with good coaches can adjust and win without their star player. Daly was a great coach, but without Isiah, the team collapsed
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#17 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:02 am

            euroleague wrote:
            No-more-rings wrote:
            euroleague wrote:Isiah Thomas 90 - one of the most dominant teams ever, with him as the engine and floor general who led it

            The 90s Pistons were hardly some all time great team. They were 4th in SRS in that very season, and only 11th in offense with 59 wins. And I'm not sure their playoff performance really suggests it either. 5 loses, a 7 game series, point differential doesn't seem historically good, etc. Didn't have to play a 60 win team.

            On top of that, Thomas' individual performance doesn't exactly back up a spot here either.

            20.5/5.5/8.2 56 ts% 21 PER..4.8 OBPM

            Pretty good numbers, but not as good as some guys still left on the ballot.

            What is Thomas' argument this high aside from, "he beat Jordan!, Magic and Bird!"?


            After they won in 89, Chuck Daly famously asked the team ‘can we beat any other team one time in a series, on an away game?’ The players answers yes... then Daly stated ‘so we can relax the regular season. We don’t need home court’

            Many other coaches since copied that strategy. Beating MJ/Pippen/Horace Grant with good role players is no easy task. Isiah invented the blueprint to defeating them.

            Check his playoff numbers instead of just using OBPM and ignoring his defensive leadership... 21 PER, 56%TS, 8.7 BPM, 21/6/8, 47% from 3

            The only other allstars on that team were Rodman and Dumars. Rodman got his offense purely from Isiah, and Dumars never accomplished anything without IT.

            When Isiah went down in 91, the team became so bad they wouldn’t make the playoffs, despite having other elite PGs. 1 year after they beat peak MJ and prime Pippen.

            The Knicks in the 70s could win without any single one of their stars. raptors lost Kawhi AND Green, and will likely be in the playoffs. MJ leaving in 94 didn’t affect his team hugely. LBJ leaving in 19 was huge but when he left the Heat in 14 the affect wasn’t big.

            Typically, teams with good coaches can adjust and win without their star player. Daly was a great coach, but without Isiah, the team collapsed


            Pistons were 19-15 without Thomas in 1991. That's 46 wins pace, good enough to finish 5th in Eastern Conference that year. Of course they were clearly better with Isiah, but what you wrote is huge hyperbole.

            In comparison - Knicks in 1970-74 went 6-12 without Frazier... But they would win without him, right?
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#18 » by euroleague » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:26 am

            70sFan wrote:
            euroleague wrote:
            No-more-rings wrote:The 90s Pistons were hardly some all time great team. They were 4th in SRS in that very season, and only 11th in offense with 59 wins. And I'm not sure their playoff performance really suggests it either. 5 loses, a 7 game series, point differential doesn't seem historically good, etc. Didn't have to play a 60 win team.

            On top of that, Thomas' individual performance doesn't exactly back up a spot here either.

            20.5/5.5/8.2 56 ts% 21 PER..4.8 OBPM

            Pretty good numbers, but not as good as some guys still left on the ballot.

            What is Thomas' argument this high aside from, "he beat Jordan!, Magic and Bird!"?


            After they won in 89, Chuck Daly famously asked the team ‘can we beat any other team one time in a series, on an away game?’ The players answers yes... then Daly stated ‘so we can relax the regular season. We don’t need home court’

            Many other coaches since copied that strategy. Beating MJ/Pippen/Horace Grant with good role players is no easy task. Isiah invented the blueprint to defeating them.

            Check his playoff numbers instead of just using OBPM and ignoring his defensive leadership... 21 PER, 56%TS, 8.7 BPM, 21/6/8, 47% from 3

            The only other allstars on that team were Rodman and Dumars. Rodman got his offense purely from Isiah, and Dumars never accomplished anything without IT.

            When Isiah went down in 91, the team became so bad they wouldn’t make the playoffs, despite having other elite PGs. 1 year after they beat peak MJ and prime Pippen.

            The Knicks in the 70s could win without any single one of their stars. raptors lost Kawhi AND Green, and will likely be in the playoffs. MJ leaving in 94 didn’t affect his team hugely. LBJ leaving in 19 was huge but when he left the Heat in 14 the affect wasn’t big.

            Typically, teams with good coaches can adjust and win without their star player. Daly was a great coach, but without Isiah, the team collapsed


            Pistons were 19-15 without Thomas in 1991. That's 46 wins pace, good enough to finish 5th in Eastern Conference that year. Of course they were clearly better with Isiah, but what you wrote is huge hyperbole.

            In comparison - Knicks in 1970-74 went 6-12 without Frazier... But they would win without him, right?


            Taking the argument in a completely incorrect context obviously will lead to different results.

            With no time to adjust, missing 1 game a few times over the course of 4 years, is different than missing a stretch of games over1 year. No coach will adjust a team’s play strategy for 1-5 games...

            Isiah healthy led the team to 27-12. That’s With him gone/recovering from injury, the team was 23-20. That’s 43 win pace, which isn’t a playoff team in most conferences. Their increased losses would go to other teams, boosting their records... changing their win count while keeping the competition they beat in the same total wins is pretty facetious. At best, it’s borderline a playoff team... hardly ‘huge hyperbole’

            Your argument is pretty misleading and doesn’t really address my points
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#19 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:41 am

            euroleague wrote:
            70sFan wrote:
            euroleague wrote:
            After they won in 89, Chuck Daly famously asked the team ‘can we beat any other team one time in a series, on an away game?’ The players answers yes... then Daly stated ‘so we can relax the regular season. We don’t need home court’

            Many other coaches since copied that strategy. Beating MJ/Pippen/Horace Grant with good role players is no easy task. Isiah invented the blueprint to defeating them.

            Check his playoff numbers instead of just using OBPM and ignoring his defensive leadership... 21 PER, 56%TS, 8.7 BPM, 21/6/8, 47% from 3

            The only other allstars on that team were Rodman and Dumars. Rodman got his offense purely from Isiah, and Dumars never accomplished anything without IT.

            When Isiah went down in 91, the team became so bad they wouldn’t make the playoffs, despite having other elite PGs. 1 year after they beat peak MJ and prime Pippen.

            The Knicks in the 70s could win without any single one of their stars. raptors lost Kawhi AND Green, and will likely be in the playoffs. MJ leaving in 94 didn’t affect his team hugely. LBJ leaving in 19 was huge but when he left the Heat in 14 the affect wasn’t big.

            Typically, teams with good coaches can adjust and win without their star player. Daly was a great coach, but without Isiah, the team collapsed


            Pistons were 19-15 without Thomas in 1991. That's 46 wins pace, good enough to finish 5th in Eastern Conference that year. Of course they were clearly better with Isiah, but what you wrote is huge hyperbole.

            In comparison - Knicks in 1970-74 went 6-12 without Frazier... But they would win without him, right?


            Taking the argument in a completely incorrect context obviously will lead to different results.

            With no time to adjust, missing 1 game a few times over the course of 4 years, is different than missing a stretch of games over1 year. No coach will adjust a team’s play strategy for 1-5 games...

            Isiah healthy led the team to 27-12. That’s With him gone/recovering from injury, the team was 23-20. That’s 43 win pace, which isn’t a playoff team in most conferences. Their increased losses would go to other teams, boosting their records... changing their win count while keeping the competition they beat in the same total wins is pretty facetious. At best, it’s borderline a playoff team... hardly ‘huge hyperbole’

            Your argument is pretty misleading and doesn’t really address my points


            You are right that it's not the same situation, though it shows how important Frazier was for the Knicks. It also shows that your opinion that Knicks would have won without him is baseless.

            Why do you bring games when Isiah played bad due to injury? We're talking about how Pistons team played without him. They were 19-15, that's 46 wins pace which is clearly a playoffs team. This season shows that Thomas has clear and tangible impact on his team, but it doesn't show any collapse. Pistons were still decent team without him and they weren't ATG with him either (56 wins pace when healthy). It's not close to what you describe - Pistons would have made playoffs without him. Even 43 wins pace is enough to make playoffs in most cases, especially in early 90s East.
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            Re: #33 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

            Post#20 » by euroleague » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:15 am

            70sFan wrote:
            euroleague wrote:
            70sFan wrote:
            Pistons were 19-15 without Thomas in 1991. That's 46 wins pace, good enough to finish 5th in Eastern Conference that year. Of course they were clearly better with Isiah, but what you wrote is huge hyperbole.

            In comparison - Knicks in 1970-74 went 6-12 without Frazier... But they would win without him, right?


            Taking the argument in a completely incorrect context obviously will lead to different results.

            With no time to adjust, missing 1 game a few times over the course of 4 years, is different than missing a stretch of games over1 year. No coach will adjust a team’s play strategy for 1-5 games...

            Isiah healthy led the team to 27-12. That’s With him gone/recovering from injury, the team was 23-20. That’s 43 win pace, which isn’t a playoff team in most conferences. Their increased losses would go to other teams, boosting their records... changing their win count while keeping the competition they beat in the same total wins is pretty facetious. At best, it’s borderline a playoff team... hardly ‘huge hyperbole’

            Your argument is pretty misleading and doesn’t really address my points


            You are right that it's not the same situation, though it shows how important Frazier was for the Knicks. It also shows that your opinion that Knicks would have won without him is baseless.

            Why do you bring games when Isiah played bad due to injury? We're talking about how Pistons team played without him. They were 19-15, that's 46 wins pace which is clearly a playoffs team. This season shows that Thomas has clear and tangible impact on his team, but it doesn't show any collapse. Pistons were still decent team without him and they weren't ATG with him either (56 wins pace when healthy). It's not close to what you describe - Pistons would have made playoffs without him. Even 43 wins pace is enough to make playoffs in most cases, especially in early 90s East.


            That’s again missing context. With Isiah, the pistons just needed to make the playoffs- they weren’t trying to get home court, because the play time in the postseason is massive.

            Without Isiah healthy, they regressed from an effortless playoff contender to struggling to break even. They regressed from +5.1 points per game over opponents to +1.8. Joe Dumars increased his playtime from 36mpg to 40mpg, Rodman from 30 to 35 mpg, etc... their major players went into playoff mode to try to stay upright, and the team still got drastically worse.

            That type of adjustment doesn’t occur when Frazier misses one game.

            The Knicks were quite good with Frazier as a minor player in 69, and Frazier wasn’t considered the best on his team much of the time. That can’t easily be equated with a clear alpha in Isiah

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