#34 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

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#34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:42 am

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08
21) Tracy McGrady 2002-03
22) Moses Malone 1982-83
23) Patrick Ewing 1989-90
24) Kevin Durant 2013-14
25) Russell Westbrook 2016-17
26) Charles Barkley 1992-93
27) Kawhi Leonard 2018-19
28) Chris Paul 2007-08
29) George Mikan 1948-49
30) Steve Nash 2004-05
31) Giannis Antetokounmpo 2018-19
32) Karl Malone 1996-97
33) Dwight Howard 2010-11

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.

Deadline: 10pm November 2 Eastern Time

The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:15 am

1st ballot - '75 Artis Gilmore
Was the team's leading scorer [by a significant margin] in both rs and the playoffs while also leading them in shooting efficiency in the rs (was 2nd to an 11.1 mpg teammate in the playoffs). Simultaneously anchored a #1-rated -6.4 rDRTG (they were #1 in the ABA in both DREB% and opp eFG%).
One can question the competitiveness of the ABA, though I don't think it was terribly far off the NBA at that time, and at any rate: look what^^^ he did to the league. If he did that in the NBA of the early 80's, we'd have voted him in at least 5-6 places ago.

fwiw, the Colonels rolled to a title (13-3 playoff record) with Gilmore averaging 24 and 18 in the playoffs.

Defensively he's a long and imposing physical presence underneath while on offense having a knack for getting deep paint touches and finishing very well.



2nd ballot - '15 Anthony Davis
Excellent two-way player, led a mediocre cast to 45 wins and playoff berth in a tough conference. Got swept by a vastly superior team in the playoffs, but he put up monster numbers, keeping them competitive in 2-3 of the games.


Could go with another year of AD for my third ballot, but I'll once again spread it around. Think I'm gonna go with Harden....
3rd ballot - '18 James Harden
Harden feels appropriate around now, though I really don't know which year to go with. '19, '18, and '15 really all feel about the same to me. For now I'll go with '18, where he had his 2nd-best rs PER (was #1 in league, though), career-best WS/48, 2nd-best rs BPM of his career (again, #1 in league, though), a respectable NPI RAPM (tied for 17th in league) while spear-heading the #1 rs offense in the league (out-doing the Curry/Durant/Klay/Green Warriors [though Steph had missed 31 games, and the other three had each missed 9+]).
In the playoffs the Rockets go as far as game 7 of the WCF against aforementioned Warriors, and tbh I think would have won it all if not for the untimely break-down of CP3's body. Harden was averaging 29/5/7 in those playoffs.

But again, '19 and '15 both look just as good to me (for slightly different reasons); so I reserve the right to switch to one of those.


HM's for me (good candidates all) at this point are McAdoo, Baylor, Pettit, Frazier, Reed, Hawkins, McHale, Mourning, maybe Brand.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#3 » by euroleague » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:46 am

trex_8063 wrote:HM's for me (good candidates all) at this point are McAdoo, Baylor, Pettit, Frazier, Reed, Hawkins, McHale, maybe Brand.


Why McHale or Brand (particularly Brand) over Isiah, Cousy (an MVP who gets underrated via all of those pushing Russell), Drexler, Alonzo Mourning, etc?

I wouldn’t even have Brand over Manu, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, and the next tier.

Isiah Thomas is getting really underrated here....
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#4 » by liamliam1234 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:56 am

^ Isiah does not have a case over Walt, I do not think he has a good case over Barry, and I am not sure I would even vote him over the other Detroit point guard who won Finals MVP. And his only real case over Harden stems from his Finals averages.

Regarding the last result: I really dislike that Howard vote/result by comparison with Reed/Gilmore, but that was another case where any counterargument was dead on arrival. :-? Not even sure what makes him more deserving over Mourning, let alone over guys who actually led their teams to a title and won MVPs.

Postseason +/- of 2.5 in 2011, third on the team (second if you think Ryan Anderson played too few minutes to deserve consideration). Postseason on/off net rating differential of +0.9, with the especially damning data that he was -6.0 on defence. And he was even worse in 2009 (-10.1 net :o ). For all the talk about “team quality” with the Pistons or the Knicks, the Magic ended up getting dismissed entirely.

Maybe I could have tried to convince Cecil more, but I know trex’s and NMR’s voting patterns enough to recognise a dead case when I see it. Like, I guess I could have argued on behalf of Mourning in the hope that might strategically divide the vote a bit, but that would basically be it.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#5 » by No-more-rings » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:42 pm

euroleague wrote:
Isiah Thomas is getting really underrated here....


As if. We have a guy still on the ballot who averaged 36 ppg on 62 ts% with 7.5 apg, 30.6 PER, and 11.7 BPM. It's asinine that Westbrook went this far ahead of him, i can't see justification for what might be a 10+ spot gap.

I guess defense is such a problem, that it erases his Jordan/Lebron type numbers. But wait! We have Barkley, Westbrook and Nash all voted in who were anywhere from bad defenders to average depending on your opinion, and whether you choose to select or ignore evidence.

The most inconsistent thus far omission of the project.

1. 19 Harden- Same reasoning as before, highly efficient volume scorer, creative playmaker, carried the Rockets to 53 wins and 2nd ranked offense with a declining Paul, and the worst cast he's had since 2016.

2. 2018 Harden- Going with this on the belief he's 98% of his 2019 self, just didn't have the same green light or didn't need it.

3. 63' Elgin Baylor: Close call against one of Gilmore's seasons, but watching Baylor he strikes me as someone who would translate quite well today, decent jumper, good length, and passing seems underrated by assist numbers. I feel like Baylor translates a bit better across eras.

Also looking at tape, Baylor looks like he'd be listed more around 6'7ish today instead of 6'5. Could be wrong, but looks like he's somewhere around a Paul Pierce height, or at least Kobe.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#6 » by liamliam1234 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:02 pm

1963 Baylor over 1961 Baylor? :o
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#7 » by No-more-rings » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:08 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:1963 Baylor over 1961 Baylor? :o

Same caliber. I give 63 a bonus for playing more games, and managing similar production despite West entering his prime and taking on a bigger role.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#8 » by liamliam1234 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:25 pm

And what about the extra 5.5 rebounds per game in 1961? Or the 5.5 to 6 points per game dip from the prior two playoffs?
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#9 » by euroleague » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:03 pm

Isiah has a case against anyone, and the ridiculous hyperbole of ‘so and so has nothing on my guy’ is asinine discussion that has no place here.

Harden should be ranked ahead of Westbrook, but Westbrook was rated far too highly. I think harden has a strong case to be admitted as a dominant mvp, but his postseasons have had some truly terrible performances.

I would like a project which ranks only postseasons and only regular seasons, to get a clearer idea of players ranking. It seems like Harden is clearly one of the best regular season players ever, as was 17 WB.

1. Isiah Thomas 90 - dominant postseason run and floor general, his impact went far beyond his stats, as is true of most elite PGs
2. Rick Barry 75 - dominant playoffs where he took his team on his shoulders as few others have done
3. Bob McAdoo 75 - great regular season and postseason, very legit MVP with a great showing in the playoffs
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:05 pm

euroleague wrote:Isiah has a case against anyone


Then make reasonable case for him against:

Willis Reed
Artis Gilmore
Alonzo Mourning
Bob Pettit
Anthony Davis
Rick Barry
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Paul Arizin
James Harden
George Gervin
Walt Frazier

It's not a hate post - tell me why do you have him over all of them. Just please, don't use ring argument - focus more on his abilities, on his on-court impact etc.

I probably underrate Thomas quite a bit because I dislike him, but he's far from candidate right now in my opinion. He's neutral defender whose offensive impact is not enough to fight with two-way beasts left.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:08 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:1963 Baylor over 1961 Baylor? :o

Could be because Lakers performed much better offensively in 1963. He had much better teammates, sure but it's still important to note.

To be honest, I don't see any meaningful difference between 1961-63 Baylor. We don't have enough tape from that era to measure his improvements and changes.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:09 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Barry 75, epic carry job
Frazier 73, orchestrated one of the most team oriented teams of all time
Pettit 58, possibly the greatest 4th quarter Finals performance of all time to carry St Louis past the Celtics (Russell injured or it would be higher)
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#13 » by cecilthesheep » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:21 pm

No-more-rings wrote:We have a guy still on the ballot who averaged 36 ppg on 62 ts% with 7.5 apg, 30.6 PER, and 11.7 BPM. It's asinine that Westbrook went this far ahead of him, i can't see justification for what might be a 10+ spot gap.

I guess defense is such a problem, that it erases his Jordan/Lebron type numbers. But wait! We have Barkley, Westbrook and Nash all voted in who were anywhere from bad defenders to average depending on your opinion, and whether you choose to select or ignore evidence.

The most inconsistent thus far omission of the project.

Well, Westbrook went way too high. Like I-probably-wouldn't-even-be-voting-for-him-right-now too high. Barkley went too high for my taste as well, although the problem isn't as severe.

Defense is not the only point to be made against Harden. No matter how good his regular season numbers look, I think it's almost undeniable that he puts them up in a way that is less sustainable over a 7-game series against focused, gameplanned defense than any other volume scorer we've seen. He's just melted down too many times for me to believe in it the same way as I believe in Jordan or LeBron's offensive value.

I mean, we pretty much all agree that Lou Williams is less impactful to a championship-level team than his scoring numbers might suggest. Harden is obviously a completely different caliber of player, but I think his impact gets overstated in a similar way and for similar reasons when we only look at his box scores.
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T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#14 » by No-more-rings » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:10 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
Defense is not the only point to be made against Harden. No matter how good his regular season numbers look, I think it's almost undeniable that he puts them up in a way that is less sustainable over a 7-game series against focused, gameplanned defense than any other volume scorer we've seen. He's just melted down too many times for me to believe in it the same way as I believe in Jordan or LeBron's offensive value.


We've been over this plenty of times now. Maybe you weren't reading, since i know you were kind of off the scene at times. Forgivable of course.

His playoff woes or whatever people call them are overblown kind of ridiculously at this point.

His detractors mostly look at his ts% and think he was junk or something.

Let's look at his overall level of play in his prime in the playoffs..again..

2015-2019: 28.6/5.7/7.3 4.6 tov 24.3 PER 57.6 ts% 7.8 BPM

His play in elimination series:

2015: 28.8/7.8/6.4 62.7 ts% Vs the Warriors 1st ranked defense(67 win team)
2016: 26.6/5.2/7.6 55.5 ts% Vs the Warriors 5th ranked defense(73 win team)
2017: 24.5/4.7/9.7 56.8 ts% Vs Spurs 1st ranked defense
2018: 28.7/5.6/6. 53.8 ts% and played good defense Vs the Warriors almost pulling off the upset
2019: 34.8/7/5.5 59.4 ts% vs the Warriors

Man that Harden really sucked in the playoffs.

Aside from maybeee the Spurs, which series should he have won?

Wade's average play from 06-11 in the playoffs: 27.2/6.1/5.3 3.8 tov 26.1 PER 58 ts% 8.0 BPM

Kobe from say 06-10: 29.8/5.7/5.4 24.9 PER 57 ts% 6.1 BPM

Harden again: 2015-2019: 28.6/5.7/7.3 4.6 tov 24.3 PER 57.6 ts% 7.8 BPM

His numbers are right there with them, I'm not saying he's as good as they were, but they were voted in at #16 and #20. We're now down to 34 and people are still pushing back so hard against Harden it's starting to get a little embarrassing and is making the project look bad imo. Which i hate to say because we have a lot of smart posters in here, but this is one we messed up on.

cecilthesheep wrote:I mean, we pretty much all agree that Lou Williams is less impactful to a championship-level team than his scoring numbers might suggest. Harden is obviously a completely different caliber of player, but I think his impact gets overstated in a similar way and for similar reasons when we only look at his box scores.

It's fine to think that but unless you have something concrete to back it up, we can't just ignore the box scores when that's literally all we're using for all these 70s players that are getting voted for ahead of him(Barry, Gilmore, etc.).
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#15 » by cecilthesheep » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:25 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
Defense is not the only point to be made against Harden. No matter how good his regular season numbers look, I think it's almost undeniable that he puts them up in a way that is less sustainable over a 7-game series against focused, gameplanned defense than any other volume scorer we've seen. He's just melted down too many times for me to believe in it the same way as I believe in Jordan or LeBron's offensive value.


We've been over this plenty of times now. Maybe you weren't reading, since i know you were kind of off the scene at times. Forgivable of course.

His playoff woes or whatever people call them are overblown kind of ridiculously at this point.

His detractors mostly look at his ts% and think he was junk or something.

Let's look at his overall level of play in his prime in the playoffs..again..

2015-2019: 28.6/5.7/7.3 4.6 tov 24.3 PER 57.6 ts% 7.8 BPM

His play in elimination series:

2015: 28.8/7.8/6.4 62.7 ts% Vs the Warriors 1st ranked defense(67 win team)
2016: 26.6/5.2/7.6 55.5 ts% Vs the Warriors 5th ranked defense(73 win team)
2017: 24.5/4.7/9.7 56.8 ts% Vs Spurs 1st ranked defense
2018: 28.7/5.6/6. 53.8 ts% and played good defense Vs the Warriors almost pulling off the upset
2019: 34.8/7/5.5 59.4 ts% vs the Warriors

Man that Harden really sucked in the playoffs.

Aside from maybeee the Spurs, which series should he have won?

Wade's average play from 06-11 in the playoffs: 27.2/6.1/5.3 3.8 tov 26.1 PER 58 ts% 8.0 BPM

Kobe from say 06-10: 29.8/5.7/5.4 24.9 PER 57 ts% 6.1 BPM

Harden again: 2015-2019: 28.6/5.7/7.3 4.6 tov 24.3 PER 57.6 ts% 7.8 BPM

His numbers are right there with them, I'm not saying he's as good as they were, but they were voted in at #16 and #20. We're now down to 34 and people are still pushing back so hard against Harden it's starting to get a little embarrassing and is making the project look bad imo. Which i hate to say because we have a lot of smart posters in here, but this is one we messed up on.

cecilthesheep wrote:I mean, we pretty much all agree that Lou Williams is less impactful to a championship-level team than his scoring numbers might suggest. Harden is obviously a completely different caliber of player, but I think his impact gets overstated in a similar way and for similar reasons when we only look at his box scores.

It's fine to think that but unless you have something concrete to back it up, we can't just ignore the box scores when that's literally all we're using for all these 70s players that are getting voted for ahead of him(Barry, Gilmore, etc.).

hmmm, maybe you have a point here. I'll admit my perception of playoff Harden may be colored significantly by my memory of that 2017 Game 6 against the Spurs. I seem to recall some comparisons with KD where it became evident that by the numbers his postseason decline isn't so much more severe than some other scoring-heavy superstars.

I guess the thing is i'm just flat out not afraid of Harden's game the way I am of, say, Jordan's, and it makes the Jordan comparisons fall flat for me. I know that's a feeling, and I'm not making a very convincing case. Best I can say right now is the scoring alone just doesn't do it for me. It feels a little Wilt-esque, I don't know what your thoughts on Wilt are but he's another guy I'm low on.

I do my best to use more than just box scores for older players. I try to watch at least most of what film is out there before I claim to really know what x player from the 70s/80s was like. Can't speak for the whole voting body, but i never really trust the box score.
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T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
G. Gervin '78 | M. Ginóbili '08 | A. Robertson '88
K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
D. Robinson '95 | A. Gilmore '83 | S. Nater '75
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#16 » by Jim Naismith » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 pm

1984 Bernard King

35/6/3 @ .620 TS% in the playoffs

Lost in 7 against eventual champion Celtics
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#17 » by euroleague » Fri Nov 1, 2019 12:44 am

70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:Isiah has a case against anyone


Then make reasonable case for him against:

Willis Reed
Artis Gilmore
Alonzo Mourning
Bob Pettit
Anthony Davis
Rick Barry
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Paul Arizin
James Harden
George Gervin
Walt Frazier

It's not a hate post - tell me why do you have him over all of them. Just please, don't use ring argument - focus more on his abilities, on his on-court impact etc.

I probably underrate Thomas quite a bit because I dislike him, but he's far from candidate right now in my opinion. He's neutral defender whose offensive impact is not enough to fight with two-way beasts left.


I’ve made many reasonable cases already, however you quite simply refuse to see the point. Talking about his elite finals performance means (omg title). I’ve discussed his case with you and others for 4-5 straight threads - it’s a bit boring. Your argument against Isiah is purely box score, when he’s elite at elevating his team through playmaking not ball hogging. He was a Reggie Miller like playoff performer, hugely elevating his game consistently in the playoffs... so, I don’t rank him or Reggie off of their regular seasons.

Isiah missed half of 91, and the team’s ORTG/DRTG got 2.7 worse than 90, despite Rodman becoming a star and Dumars having his best season yet. If his impact was 5.4, that’s bigger than MJ leaving the bulls in 93. Bigger than Barkley joining the Suns in 93. And easily bigger than Arizin joining the Warriors in 55. Baylor left the Lakers, and they didn’t get worse. And that’s REGULAR SEASON ISIAH, who didn’t really push the envelope and was mostly coasting in 90. I fail to understand how people can miss the fact that he carried the Pistons offensively and had a huge defensive impact in the playoffs.

Regardless of Isiah, Putting Arizin here is pretty absurd...Arizin wasn’t a great playmaker, wasn’t a great rebounder for a SF, led a terrible defense, and his only strength was scoring which he didn’t do at a high volume...in his peak season before integration he barely made the playoffs and lost in the first round.

If Mikan’s peak ranks 30, there’s no way Arizin should be discussed at 34
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#18 » by liamliam1234 » Fri Nov 1, 2019 2:04 am

It is not just boxscore. It is boring because you just repeat the same narrative concepts over and over, even though the numbers do not support them.

The 1990 Pistons had a +2.1 relative offence. #353 all-time. Do you know how many other Pistons teams alone I scrolled past to reach it? That is Isiah’s “peak”, and somehow it does not matter at all. For all the talk of his elevation, the Pistons were barely elevated. They won that title off their defence (something like -8 relative). Isiah having a nice five or six games at the end does not change that.

Isiah upping his game on the playoffs does not matter if his base level is not adding that much. You want to argue Reggie? Go ahead; he also has a better case than Isiah, both individually and looking at team offensive performance. You want to argue “team reliance” or whatever? Hey, Stockton is right there.

The Pistons tanked themselves by trading Billups for Iverson; again, where is the vote for him?

Once more, this is the problem with people who push narrative above all empirical evidence to the contrary.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 1, 2019 6:50 am

euroleague wrote:
70sFan wrote:
euroleague wrote:Isiah has a case against anyone


Then make reasonable case for him against:

Willis Reed
Artis Gilmore
Alonzo Mourning
Bob Pettit
Anthony Davis
Rick Barry
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Paul Arizin
James Harden
George Gervin
Walt Frazier

It's not a hate post - tell me why do you have him over all of them. Just please, don't use ring argument - focus more on his abilities, on his on-court impact etc.

I probably underrate Thomas quite a bit because I dislike him, but he's far from candidate right now in my opinion. He's neutral defender whose offensive impact is not enough to fight with two-way beasts left.


I’ve made many reasonable cases already, however you quite simply refuse to see the point. Talking about his elite finals performance means (omg title). I’ve discussed his case with you and others for 4-5 straight threads - it’s a bit boring. Your argument against Isiah is purely box score, when he’s elite at elevating his team through playmaking not ball hogging. He was a Reggie Miller like playoff performer, hugely elevating his game consistently in the playoffs... so, I don’t rank him or Reggie off of their regular seasons.

Isiah missed half of 91, and the team’s ORTG/DRTG got 2.7 worse than 90, despite Rodman becoming a star and Dumars having his best season yet. If his impact was 5.4, that’s bigger than MJ leaving the bulls in 93. Bigger than Barkley joining the Suns in 93. And easily bigger than Arizin joining the Warriors in 55. Baylor left the Lakers, and they didn’t get worse. And that’s REGULAR SEASON ISIAH, who didn’t really push the envelope and was mostly coasting in 90. I fail to understand how people can miss the fact that he carried the Pistons offensively and had a huge defensive impact in the playoffs.

Regardless of Isiah, Putting Arizin here is pretty absurd...Arizin wasn’t a great playmaker, wasn’t a great rebounder for a SF, led a terrible defense, and his only strength was scoring which he didn’t do at a high volume...in his peak season before integration he barely made the playoffs and lost in the first round.

If Mikan’s peak ranks 30, there’s no way Arizin should be discussed at 34


I don't talk about boxscores. My point is that he didn't really elevate Pistons to elite heights offensively. Pistons were +1.8 rORtg in RS and +1.7 rORtg in playoffs. Pistons offense uunderperformed against the Bulls by almost 5 points per100. Yeah, he played great in the finals but he didn't elevate Pistons offensively to elite or even very good level.

Reggie Miller's offensive impact is measurable and you are right about him. It's not the same situation as with Thomas. Thomas isn't also that great of a playoffs performer either, he's very inconsistent (excellent finals in 1990, but very weak ECF, same with 1988 ECF and the finals). All people remember Isiah's heroic performace in game 6 of 1988 finals but they don't remember how underwhelming he was offensively for the rest of the series.

If someone like Harden, Gervin or Frazier had a series like 18/9 on -3% rTS and their team underperformed offensively by around 4 points PER100 against 1990 Bulls, people would attack them heavily. People would say that they were lucky they had so good supporting cast. I can't even imagine what people would do to Harden. Yet Thomas played mediocre basketball (and no, he didn't elevate his team in that series, I watched it) and it doesn't matter because his team won and he played well in the finals.

The truth is that Thomas was excellent playmaker who was also very good at lowering his turnovers. He's also very dynamic player, really good in transition and put constant pressure on defense. He's also scrappy but limited defender. That's his strengths, but he's not free of weaknesses. He's only average shooter, he's small so he had to rely on that inconsistent shot. He's not great finisher because he's small. His shot selection is questionable, especially as he got older and less athletic. He's exciting to watch, but overall quite inefficient (again, especially in late 80s and early 90s). His size also limits his defensive value, he's not bad because he tried and cared but he still could be attacked with certain matchups. His leadership is a double sword too - he helped creating great culture in Detroit but he also hates playing with better offensive players than himself. Even Dantley, who wasn't really better but was good, had very tough time with Thomas and Isiah basically forced his trade.

That's why I don't understand why you pick 1990 Thomas. He was clearly better player earlier because he needed his quickness to get shots off, to attack and create chaos. By 1987 he had enough experience, he was green rookie then. 1985-87 Thomas can be reasonable candidate at this point, but 1990 one is just clearly worse version of himself. Give me one reason to believe he was better basketball player then. Don't tell me about rings or finals appeariances. You talk about 1990 finals, but that's something Thomas already surpassed early in his career. Look at his series against Boston in 1985 (better team than Blazers), he was much better player then.

He's underrated by people who only looks at BBallRefs page. He's better than his raw RS stats. He's better than Lillard or other high volume PGs. He's also overrated by people who believe that he carried Pistons to two titles. He's overrated for people who say that he "beat Jordan, Bird and Magic".

I picked Arizin because he has the same narrative as Thomas, with the exception of defensive power of his teammates. You can completely ignore him and focus on the rest though.

Now tell me what is wrong with my short breakdown.
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Re: #34 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#20 » by euroleague » Fri Nov 1, 2019 7:19 am

Comparing Isiah in scoring to Harden/Gervin is asinine, and nobody would focus as much on Frazier. Harden and Gervin are excellent scorers but weak in most facets of the game. Isiah impacts it with playmaking, and wasn’t an excellent scorer of their caliber.

Isiah played on a very weak offensive team, and brought it to above average. He won several ASG MVPs because he dominates more the stronger his teammates are - as do most pass oriented point guards.

Frazier had Reed, Stockton had Malone, Nash had Amare/Marion, Magic had Kareem/Worthy... not many elite playmakers can thrive with Laimbeer/Dumars/Rodman as their next 3 best teammates.

Part of what made Isiah great is that he played with his team even when in the short term he could’ve played a 2-3 man offense. CP3 is the other great PG who succeeded without much help, but he did it by becoming a ball hog - which works in the regular season, but typically fails in the playoffs.

Isiah in 90 was a superior strategist, and I see his offense as far more potent in that series. Just because peak MJ was defending him and his scoring suffered, doesn’t mean his ECF was terrible - taking MJ off of Dumars is an accomplishment in itself

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