#35 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[LA Bird]

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08
21) Tracy McGrady 2002-03
22) Moses Malone 1982-83
23) Patrick Ewing 1989-90
24) Kevin Durant 2013-14
25) Russell Westbrook 2016-17
26) Charles Barkley 1992-93
27) Kawhi Leonard 2018-19
28) Chris Paul 2007-08
29) George Mikan 1948-49
30) Steve Nash 2004-05
31) Giannis Antetokounmpo 2018-19
32) Karl Malone 1996-97
33) Dwight Howard 2010-11
34) Artis Gilmore 1974-75

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.

Deadline: 10pm November 5 Eastern Time

The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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[penbeast0]

Barry 75, epic carry job
Frazier 73, orchestrated one of the most team oriented teams of all time
Pettit 58, possibly the greatest 4th quarter Finals performance of all time to carry St Louis past the Celtics (Russell injured or it would be higher)

[WarriorGM]

I'm curious was Gilmore better than Barry in 1975? Anyone care to discuss?

Barry holds the record for career average ppg in the finals.

A thorough comparison among Gilmore, Barry, and McAdoo seems to be in order right about now.

[liamliam1234]

Barry’s efficiency was bleh even for his era, and obviously, even as a reputedly superb wing defender, he was nowhere near Gilmore’s impact on that end. So question is whether his high leverage passing outweighs that. EB has argued yes on the factor of his teammates being no-names, but his teammates defended well and rebounded incredibly well, so I would lean against that take.

McAdoo was a superb scorer but a black hole (Gilmore had some decent passing for a big), and again, not really approaching that defensive impact. Debate between him and Barry is closer because you could feasibly argue Barry had more defensive impact. By reputation, my sense is that Gilmore was generally perceived as better, but of course that is hearsay and involves inter-league comparisons.

Positionally, I am still not taking Barry over Walt (you can make a case his passing outweighs Walt’s scoring advantage, but for that you need to go deep into the weeds of “high impact passing”), and I am probably not taking McAdoo over Pettit. But both are reasonable votes, and the fact Barry was left off the last project was outright gross, lol.

[WarriorGM]

Looking at Rick Barry, 1967 is a very interesting year for him too. Lost in the finals to Wilt's greatest team in 6 games when Russell's Celtics lost in 5. Averaged 40.8 points per game in the finals.

[trex_8063]

1st ballot - '15 Anthony Davis
Excellent two-way player, led a mediocre cast to 45 wins and playoff berth in a tough conference. Got swept by a vastly superior team in the playoffs, but he put up monster numbers, keeping them competitive in 2-3 of the games.


2nd ballot - '18 James Harden
Harden feels appropriate around now, though I really don't know which year to go with. '19, '18, and '15 really all feel about the same to me. For now I'll go with '18, where he had his 2nd-best rs PER (was #1 in league, though), career-best WS/48, 2nd-best rs BPM of his career (again, #1 in league, though), a respectable NPI RAPM (tied for 17th in league) while spear-heading the #1 rs offense in the league (out-doing the Curry/Durant/Klay/Green Warriors [though Steph had missed 31 games, and the other three had each missed 9+]).
In the playoffs the Rockets go as far as game 7 of the WCF against aforementioned Warriors, and tbh I think would have won it all if not for the untimely break-down of CP3's body. Harden was averaging 29/5/7 in those playoffs.


3rd ballot - '19 James Harden
Since I'm really almost undecided on Harden's best year ('18? '19? '15?), and his total vote (all years) actually exceeded Gilmore's in the last thread, I'll go ahead and give my third ballot to him as well. Historic season in terms of offensive volume, a bit better defensively in the playoffs than we typically think of for him, too.

[penbeast0]

Barry’s efficiency was bleh even for his era, and obviously, even as a reputedly superb wing defender, he was nowhere near Gilmore’s impact on that end. So question is whether his high leverage passing outweighs that. EB has argued yes on the factor of his teammates being no-names, but his teammates defended well and rebounded incredibly well, so I would lean against that take.

McAdoo was a superb scorer but a black hole (Gilmore had some decent passing for a big), and again, not really approaching that defensive impact. Debate between him and Barry is closer because you could feasibly argue Barry had more defensive impact. By reputation, my sense is that Gilmore was generally perceived as better, but of course that is hearsay and involves inter-league comparisons.

Positionally, I am still not taking Barry over Walt (you can make a case his passing outweighs Walt’s scoring advantage, but for that you need to go deep into the weeds of “high impact passing”), and I am probably not taking McAdoo over Pettit. But both are reasonable votes, and the fact Barry was left off the last project was outright gross, lol.

Where in God's name did you get that Barry had a reputation as a superb wing defender? Barry himself? He was generally a lousy man defender whose quick reflexes and good court vision made him effective in the passing lanes. Like a skinny version of Larry Bird.

And, for that matter, you think Frazier had a scoring advantage over Barry, even positionally? Efficiency, sure, but Barry was the volume scorer. Could you explain?

[liamliam1234]

I have read posts of yours going back quite a few years unjustly ripping on Barry’s defensive peaks; do not act like I am going to be able to say anything to change your mind. If you want to quibble over the implication of “superb”, fine, but I tend to agree with 70sFan and elgee and Lorak and even EB addressing the quality of his defence.

In the playoffs of their peak years in question, Barry scores maybe twenty percent more than Walt on fifty percent higher volume; to me, that is demonstrably not a scoring advantage. May as well say Baylor was a better scorer than Barkley.

[WarriorGM]

In the playoffs of their peak years in question, Barry scores maybe twenty percent more than Walt on fifty percent higher volume; to me, that is demonstrably not a scoring advantage. May as well say Baylor was a better scorer than Barkley.

Pts/Rb/Ast
1975 Playoffs Rick Barry 28.2/5.5/6.1 on 44.4% fg%
1973 Playoffs Walt Frazier 21.9/7.3/6.2 on 51.4% fg%

Pts/Rb/Ast
1975 Finals Rick Barry 29.5/4.0/5.0 on 44.4% fg%
1973 Finals Walt Frazier 16.6/6.8/5.2 on 47.9% fg%


The Knicks it seems could produce a more balanced attack so I wouldn't take the lower finals numbers against Frazier. But when it comes to carry jobs I don't see how one can really fault Barry. The resilience of his production numbers is a characteristic that is of great value when going deeper into the playoffs especially if it cannot be argued his teammates deserved more usage. Barry's Warriors also swept a 60-win team that would later win a championship when its main players were past 30.

Baylor might deserve a mention about now.

[liamliam1234]

1973 is not Walt’s peak, nor his best “carry job” comparison.

I find it tough to buy that Barry missing shots is somehow an added boon not replicable by pushing his teammates to score more, unless the argument is that every single shot they did not take gave them added defensive energy or something.

[WarriorGM]

1973 is not Walt’s peak, nor his best “carry job” comparison.

I find it tough to buy that Barry missing shots is somehow an added boon not replicable by pushing his teammates to score more, unless the argument is that every single shot they did not take gave them added defensive energy or something.

What year was Walt's peak or best carry job then? Was it 1972? If so do you find that more impressive than Barry 1967?

[No-more-rings]

Took a while, but i think Harden finally gets in this thread.

1. 19 Harden- Same reasoning as before, highly efficient volume scorer, creative playmaker, carried the Rockets to 53 wins and 2nd ranked offense with a declining Paul, and the worst cast he's had since 2016.

2. 2018 Harden- Going with this on the belief he's 98% of his 2019 self, just didn't have the same green light or didn't need it.

3. 63' Elgin Baylor: Close call against the likes of Davis, Barry, etc, but watching Baylor he strikes me as someone who would translate quite well today, decent jumper, good length, and passing seems underrated by assist numbers. I think if his prime took place today with modern training, spacing and such i could see him top out at something like a 27/12/5 guy on 58-59 ts% with above average defense. Maybe that's being a bit generous, but i definitely see him translating better than someone like Frazier, and compared to Barry it's maybe a wash.

Also looking at tape, Baylor looks like he'd be listed more around 6'7ish today instead of 6'5. Could be wrong, but looks like he's somewhere around a Paul Pierce height, or at least Kobe.

[liamliam1234]

1973 is not Walt’s peak, nor his best “carry job” comparison.

I find it tough to buy that Barry missing shots is somehow an added boon not replicable by pushing his teammates to score more, unless the argument is that every single shot they did not take gave them added defensive energy or something.

What year was Walt's peak or best carry job then? Was it 1972? If so do you find that more impressive than Barry 1967?

Yes on both counts. 1967 is not even in the discussion for me. Barry was not the best player on his team, nor was his offensive portfolio nearly as good as in 1975.

I am not far from voting for Barry. I am just saying Frazier should go first, even if he was unable to bring his team to a victory over the 1972 Lakers the same way Barry brought his team to a victory over the 1975 Bullets.

[WarriorGM]

1973 is not Walt’s peak, nor his best “carry job” comparison.

I find it tough to buy that Barry missing shots is somehow an added boon not replicable by pushing his teammates to score more, unless the argument is that every single shot they did not take gave them added defensive energy or something.

What year was Walt's peak or best carry job then? Was it 1972? If so do you find that more impressive than Barry 1967?

Yes on both counts. 1967 is not even in the discussion for me. Barry was not the best player on his team, nor was his offensive portfolio nearly as good as in 1975.

I am not far from voting for Barry. I am just saying Frazier should go first, even if he was unable to bring his team to a victory over the 1972 Lakers the same way Barry brought his team to a victory over the 1975 Bullets.

Are we talking about the same 1967 San Francisco Warriors team? The one that made the finals and pushed the 1967 Sixers to 6 games? If Barry wasn't the best player on that team who was? Nate Thurmond? Barry went 40.8/8.8/3.3 in the finals. Admittedly it was only on 40% fg% but it was still higher than everyone else on the team except two others. Thurmond in comparison had a line of 14.2/26.7/3.3 on 34.3% fg%. Losing to the 1967 Sixers in 6 seems just as respectable if not more so than losing to the 1972 Lakers in 5.

[liamliam1234]

... Do you think there is only one side to basketball?

[70sFan]

Yeah, Thurmond was at least as important to Warriors as Barry in that year. He did tremendous job on Wilt and he did almost even with him on the glass.

[trex_8063]

There's room to debate either way wrt the '67 Warriors, but Barry as the 2nd-best player is far from a foregone conclusion.

It's true the '67 Warriors were significantly better defensively than they were offensively (-3.0 rDRTG, -0.8 rORTG), but look at Barry's offensive supporting cast:
*They don't have any stellar play-makers.
**Paul Neumann is literally the ONLY teammate who had an above average rTS% (at just +0.8%).
***Nate Thurmond taking way too many shots (nearly 20 TSA/game) @ -1.3% rTS.

Rick Barry led the entire league in scoring at +3.8% rTS (which was a full +3% over the 2nd-highest TS on his own team), while also being second on his team in both rebounds and assists. It seems like he's the only thing keeping the offense treading water; replace him with an average offensive player, and this is probably the worst offense in the league.

While it's probably true he wasn't as "polished" an offensive player as he was in '75----mostly just in terms of playmaking, where it seems doubtful he was as proficient as in '75----could he have been making up for it by way of raw athleticism? And I'm truly asking, btw, because I don't know (precious little footage of early Barry available).
But he was 31 before the end of the '75 season (which is past one's physical best), and had had some injury-hit years in '69 and '70......did he truly make a "full" recover from those? I really don't know the details. But his FTAr is MUCH higher in those pre-injury years. It seems that subsequent to those injury-hit years he opted to stay more in the mid-range. Is that because it's safer? Because he no longer has the explosiveness to attack the rim like he did prior to that?....


By reputation, he was a poor defender early on in his career. So I have to assume that he was better defensively in '75. And as alluded to above I also assume he was not yet the calibre of playmaker as he is in '75. But it's arguably that he's an even BETTER scorer in '67 (also appears a better rebounder). I still consider '75 his peak, but '67 is worth some consideration.

[70sFan]

As to lack of footage from 1967 - last week I got about 30 minutes of unseen before 1967 Finals film. I'll try to edit it and post here, it's not enough go draw conclusion but you can watch Barry and take some notes

[liamliam1234]

I feel like Elgee covered that pretty thoroughly. Yes, his passing was absolutely a difference maker later on. If we are seriously debating 1967 Barry (who openly admitted to Thurmond being more essential, and who opponents openly said they were fine with chucking shots...), may as well bring Iverson into the mix.

1. 1969 Willis Reed
This was better than 1970, and Reed also deserved MVP this year: he was more essential to his team, seeing as the Knicks overall improved as players in 1970, and his numbers were almost identical (better offensively, maybe somewhat worse defensively). I know the Bullets had this huge leap with Unseld, but benefit of hindsight I think has put that vote in its proper context. First, in the eyes of MVP voters, apparently Unseld peaked as a rookie, because he never came close to replicating this. Second, the Bullets winning three more games than the Knicks does not reflect the fact the Bullets only had a +4.04 SRS, as compared to the +5.48 SRS of the Knicks. Reed also led the league in win shares and WS/48 (Unseld was 8 and 9), and considering the fact Russell was still clearly the league’s best defensive player, the case for Unseld wholly becomes just a matter of that wins leap and that misleading top seed finish. Which is not nothing, of course, but it does feel like too much weight was given to a few accumulated clutch wins (and hey, maybe Unseld was a clutch god on offence; but I kind-of doubt it).
But then you look at the playoffs: 25/14/2 on +7.1% rTS against... oh, look, Wes Unseld and Bill Russell. His .242 playoff WS/48 as the most impactful player on his team is one of the better marks left, he paired it with an MVP-worthy regular season, and he immediately proved his ability to lead a team to a title (with Russell gone and Frazier rapidly improving) the year after. The combination of all that is mostly enough for me this late in the rankings.

2. 1972 Walt Frazier
His best playoffs and regular season, with incredible team results in both considering Reed’s absence. Comparisons with Chris Paul colour my vote here. One of the league’s best perimetre defenders and passers, with superb scoring as well. Playoff elevator capable of leading his team to a title, as evidenced by what happened as soon as Reed returned the following year (frustrating that he missed out on Finals MVP, but it happens). Easily the best championship guard left on the board; I find the votes for Barry or Isiah over him to be profoundly baffling.

3. 1970 Willis Reed
He was better the year prior, but I am not going to be stubborn enough on that to cost him a more rightful ranking if enough other people would rather just give it to the title season. In addition to previously offered reasons, the season-relative SRS was enormously impressive, in a more competitive league than was the case with the 1975 Warriors (albeit still less so than in the preceding eight years).

[trex_8063]

I feel like Elgee covered that pretty thoroughly. Yes, his passing was absolutely a difference maker later on. If we are seriously debating 1967 Barry (who openly admitted to Thurmond being more essential, and who opponents openly said they were fine with chucking shots...), may as well bring Iverson into the mix.

Peak Iverson is roughly the same calibre of player I consider '67 Barry to be, actually. Gun to my head, I probably have '67 Barry just ahead, but debatable either way. And I have '75 Barry only a little in front of both.

But so we're clear, I'm not arguing for ANY of these player-seasons as of this stage of the project. I also hate the narrative of "carry job" as it pertains to '75 Barry, fwiw.