RealGM All-Time Greatest NBA/ABA Franchise Ranking - #20

[trex_8063]

1. Minneapolis/Los Angeles Lakers
2. Boston Celtics
3. Dallas Chaparrals, San Antonio Spurs
4. Chicago Bulls
5. Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers
6. Philly/SF/Golden State Warriors
7. Miami Heat
8. Fort Wayne/Detroit Pistons
9. Houston Rockets
10. New York Knicks
11. Indiana Pacers
12. Seattle Supersonics/OKC Thunder
13. Portland Trailblazers
14. New Orleans/Utah Jazz
15. Phoenix Suns
16. Milwaukee Bucks
17. Dallas Mavericks
18. Cleveland Cavaliers
19. Tri-City Blackhawks, Milwaukee/St. Louis/Atlanta Hawks

.....

26. Vancouver/Memphis Grizzlies
27. New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans
28. Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets
29. Buffalo Braves/(San Diego)/Los Angeles Clippers
30. Minnesota Timberwolves

[trex_8063]

Some of the usual categories I've been providing the info for; including any team that could even remotely be a candidate here (I think).

*For the Nuggets and Nets, I've included (parenthetical) ABA/NBA splits.


rs Win%
Nuggets - .501 (.490 in NBA, .555 in ABA)
Raptors - .470
Wizards - .453
Nets - .432 (.417 in NBA, .503 in ABA)

% of Seasons in the Playoffs
Nuggets - .654 (.581 in NBA, 1.000 in ABA)
Nets - .519 (.465 in NBA, .778 in ABA)
Wizards - .500
Raptors - .458

% of Seasons going as far as Conference Finals
Nuggets - .115 (.070 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Wizards - .086
Raptors - .083

Playoff Series Win%
Raptors - .474
Nets - .429 (.367 in NBA, .583 in ABA)
Wizards - .378
Nuggets - .277 (.286 in NBA, .250 in ABA)

% of Seasons going to Finals
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Wizards - .069
Raptors - .042
Nuggets - .019 (n/a in NBA, .111 in ABA)

% of Seasons Winning Title
Raptors - .042
Nets - .038 (n/a in NBA, .222 in ABA)
Wizards - .017
Nuggets - n/a

[Dr Positivity]

This is pretty hard. The Wizards have the best period (70s), but also the most embarrassing (everything since). The Raptors won in the most modern era but have only been a non joke for about 5 years. The Nuggets have been above average a lot but frequently not great. The Nets have their ABA titles and two finals in the modern era but a lot of mediocre to bad seasons as well. I'm going to vote the Wizards based on what they accomplished in the Unseld era, but I don't feel good about it. Vote Washington Wizards

[trex_8063]

I'm not seeing a super-clear favorite based on the above.

The Nuggets are the clear best in terms of rs win% and consistency of making it to the playoffs (both for NBA-only and combined), and they're best in proficiency of getting as far as the CF if we include the ABA (though 3rd of the 4 if looking at NBA-only). But then they're dead-last in terms of playoff win%, finals appearances or titles.

Raptors are one of two teams above who actually have an NBA title (and did so in a shorter history than the other franchises, and also in a tougher era than the other team [Bullets]), and are also 2nd in rs win% and 1st in playoff series win%. But then they come out last or next to last in the other categories.

Wizards are 3rd of the four in everything except for those categories pertaining to finals/titles (where they rank better). So could maybe see a case for them as well (they were arguably THE team of the 1970's after all).

idk, I need to think on it some more. Kinda leaning Raptors on the strength of the one title run as well as other recent successes ('16-'18), but willing to hear arguments for other teams (particularly the Wizards).

Probably leaning away from the Nets; gut feeling is they shape out marginally worse than the other three.

[Dr Positivity]

Raptors are the only team with an NBA title (and did so in a shorter history than the other franchises), and are also 2nd in rs win% and 1st in playoff series win%. But then they come out last or next to last in the other categories.

Wizards/Bullets have one

[trex_8063]

Raptors are the only team with an NBA title (and did so in a shorter history than the other franchises), and are also 2nd in rs win% and 1st in playoff series win%. But then they come out last or next to last in the other categories.

Wizards/Bullets have one

Der, thank you, yes. Knew that [perhaps even insinuated, calling them "THE team of the 1970's"] and it's obviously indicated in the above data; thanks for catching my brain-fart. Corrected above.

[penbeast0]

Using the same criteria I have been, what team would I most like to have been a fan of since the beginning, I have to go with the Denver Nuggets. Yes they have been terrible in the playoffs, and they had Carmelo Anthony plus David Thompson's drug addiction. But still, they have been a fun entertaining team in the regular season for most of their history. The playoff failures are souring but look at the other teams there and tell me you wouldn't rather have been a Denver fan than suffer as a Wiz or Nets fan. I did consider Toronto but, again, without last year, they are the bottom of the 4 and I think they need a bit more to be more fun than the Nuggets.

Vote: The Denver Rockets/Nuggets.

[iggymcfrack]

Voting Nets. If you count the ABA years they have the most overall success and if you look at the last 20 years, they probably have the most modern success as well reaching the Finals or getting close many times.

[Dr Positivity]

Voting Nets. If you count the ABA years they have the most overall success and if you look at the last 20 years, they probably have the most modern success as well reaching the Finals or getting close many times.

That's cause the East sucked ass. Not sure if 02 or 03 Nets deserve more credit than say 09 Nuggets or 16 Raptors

[trex_8063]

Voting Nets. If you count the ABA years they have the most overall success and if you look at the last 20 years, they probably have the most modern success as well reaching the Finals or getting close many times.

That's cause the East sucked ass. Not sure if 02 or 03 Nets deserve more credit than say 09 Nuggets or 16 Raptors

Language please.

But generally I agree this needs to be a consideration. The Nets have hit 50+ wins exactly ONCE in 43 years of NBA existence. Their all-time highest SRS is +4.42 (which is the one and only time in 43 years they've managed a 4+ SRS, btw; they've only twice gone >3, and only four times >2, fwiw)......what that tells me is that they were never truly a contender. I realize you can only face what's in front of you, but it should nonetheless factor into the thinking somewhere.

[rocopc]

I know its in the past and all.... but My god who in his right mind can put Lakes ahead of Celtics..... Celtics have more rings and never ever get moved away from Boston ..... just...... wow....wow shame in all of that voted that and shame on me for not being in here to stoped this non sense (or at least try to) in time hahaha

[trex_8063]

I know its in the past and all.... but My god who in his right mind can put Lakes ahead of Celtics..... Celtics have more rings and never ever get moved away from Boston ..... just...... wow....wow shame in all of that voted that and shame on me for not being in here to stoped this non sense (or at least try to) in time hahaha

Well this is.........an exaggerated response, to say the least. Or perhaps simply homer take, sort of out of touch with reality.

Celtics have more rings....by ONE (17 vs 16).
But the Lakers have more finals appearances.....by a whopping TEN (31 vs 21).

To most of us, TEN additional finals appearances outweighs the value of ONE more title.

Lakers also have a marginally better rs win% and a notably better record of getting to the playoffs. I can't recall (and don't have my spreadsheet available), but I believe they had a marginally higher proportion of seasons reaching at least as far as the CF, too.

Five of the Laker titles came before the shotclock era (vs none of the Cetlics'); but otoh TEN of the Laker titles came post-merger (vs. only four of the Celtic titles).


Never moving away is whatever to me, and to some others; I imagine it DOES matter to penbeast0 and perhaps a few others. But frankly the above SO CLEARLY paints the Lakers as the more successful franchise overall [not really even debatable], that even those individuals voted Lakers, iirc.

[Owly]

I know its in the past and all.... but My god who in his right mind can put Lakes ahead of Celtics..... Celtics have more rings and never ever get moved away from Boston ..... just...... wow....wow shame in all of that voted that and shame on me for not being in here to stoped this non sense (or at least try to) in time hahaha

Well this is.........an exaggerated response, to say the least. Or perhaps simply homer take, sort of out of touch with reality.

Celtics have more rings....by ONE (17 vs 16).
But the Lakers have more finals appearances.....by a whopping TEN (31 vs 21).

To most of us, TEN additional finals appearances outweighs the value of ONE more title.

Lakers also have a marginally better rs win% and a notably better record of getting to the playoffs. I can't recall (and don't have my spreadsheet available), but I believe they had a marginally higher proportion of seasons reaching at least as far as the CF, too.

Five of the Laker titles came before the shotclock era (vs none of the Cetlics'); but otoh TEN of the Laker titles came post-merger (vs. only four of the Celtic titles).


Never moving away is whatever to me, and to some others; I imagine it DOES matter to penbeast0 and perhaps a few others. But frankly the above SO CLEARLY paints the Lakers as the more successful franchise overall [not really even debatable], that even those individuals voted Lakers, iirc.

Put it this way, I haven't looked deep into it, I'm sympathetic to the case that there may be a case for the Celtics (e.g. more titles, regarding some of the above: Lakers have a lot of finals trips in weaker conferences e.g. 80s West, 60s West - and easier general schedules as well for the same reason) I don't know, I'd have to look into methods of factoring in whatever I figure to be important BUT ... the above [rocopc] was just a weird way to have advocated for Boston.

[Fadeaway_J]

Decidedly uninspiring field (as you would expect at this stage). Toronto having that W-L % mostly in the 21st-century East is atrocious, and Washington's overall numbers don't jump out even in the 70s despite the championship and Finals wins. Denver have been consistent in making the playoffs but don't do anything when they get there. I guess this is Washington based on the 70s, but like Dr P I'm not thrilled about it. Vote: Washington Wizards/Bullets

[penbeast0]

Just had a thought. What about the Kentucky Colonels? Short run, good teams, 1 championship, defunct. (They crashed the Squires too, they should probably be BELOW the T-Wolves as the worst franchise of all time but I forgot about them both until now)

[trex_8063]

I've kinda narrowed this one down to either Bullets/Wizards or Raptors.
I feel like so much of Toronto's standings in the categories I've been listing is tied to '19. Since the Bullets/Wizards franchise also has one title to their credit [I weight it slightly less valuable than the Raptors', fwiw, based on strength of era], I decided, for a thought exercise, to look at look at the rest of each franchise's record EXCLUDING their respective title years. Here's how it looks.....

rs Win%
Raptors (minus '19) - .459
Wizards (minus '78) - .452

% of Seasons making the Playoffs
Wizards (minus '78) - .491
Raptors (minus '19) - .435

% of seasons as far as Conf Finals
Wizards (minus '78) - .070
Raptors (minus '19) - .043

Playoff Series Win%
Raptors (minus '19) - .333
Wizards (minus '78) - .317

% of Seasons making it to NBA Finals
Wizards (minus '78) - .053
Raptors (minus '19) - n/a
^^^That's three appearances in 57 seasons, vs. zero in 23 seasons for the Raps


It's still pretty close, but I think based on the above I'm going to go with (Chicago Packers/Zephyrs), Baltimore/Capitol/Washington Bullets/Wizards for my vote.

[penbeast0]

I think y'all are underestimating just how miserable it has been to be a Wizards fan for the last 50 years. It's been nearly T-Wolf level and I don't think the 70s are enough to move them over a team that has been competitive and entertaining over pretty much all of it's career like Denver, even if they consistently blow in the playoffs.

[trex_8063]

Wizards - 3 (sorry pen)
Nuggets - 1
Nets - 1

Side-note: surprised no one chipped in for the Raptors.
Anyway, calling it for the Wizards; will have the next up directly.....

[rocopc]

First sorry if my original comment rubbing in the bad side... Im undestand that I go a little far with my reaction, and for that I said that Im really sorry if Im offended some oy you, but still I support my "idea" but in a more civil way....(sorry if my english its not good)

Well this is.........an exaggerated response, to say the least. Or perhaps simply homer take, sort of out of touch with reality.

Yeah.... And Im sorry

Celtics have more rings....by ONE (17 vs 16).
But the Lakers have more finals appearances.....by a whopping TEN (31 vs 21).

Yeah 1 more its 1 more, and have 1 more playing in less finanal its a signs of the greatness of the franchise

Never moving away is whatever to me, and to some others; I imagine it DOES matter to penbeast0 and perhaps a few others. But frankly the above SO CLEARLY paints the Lakers as the more successful franchise overall [not really even debatable], that even those individuals voted Lakers, iirc.

I have to said that this is a mayor point, you are talking about a league that from the start have 11 teams and only 2 never change location (NY Knicks the other one)....so... yeah its a big big issue .