RealGM All-Time Greatest NBA/ABA Franchises Ranking - #21

[trex_8063]

1. Minneapolis/Los Angeles Lakers
2. Boston Celtics
3. Dallas Chaparrals, San Antonio Spurs
4. Chicago Bulls
5. Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers
6. Philly/SF/Golden State Warriors
7. Miami Heat
8. Fort Wayne/Detroit Pistons
9. Houston Rockets
10. New York Knicks
11. Indiana Pacers
12. Seattle Supersonics/OKC Thunder
13. Portland Trailblazers
14. New Orleans/Utah Jazz
15. Phoenix Suns
16. Milwaukee Bucks
17. Dallas Mavericks
18. Cleveland Cavaliers
19. Tri-City Blackhawks, Milwaukee/St. Louis/Atlanta Hawks
20. Chicago Packers/Zephyrs, Baltimore/Capitol/Washington Bullets/Wizards

.....

26. Vancouver/Memphis Grizzlies
27. New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans
28. Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets
29. Buffalo Braves/(San Diego)/Los Angeles Clippers
30. Minnesota Timberwolves

[trex_8063]

Some of the usual categories I've been providing the info for; including any team that could even remotely be a candidate here (I think).

*For the Nuggets and Nets, I've included (parenthetical) ABA/NBA splits.


rs Win%
Nuggets - .501 (.490 in NBA, .555 in ABA)
Magic - .480
Raptors - .470
Nets - .432 (.417 in NBA, .503 in ABA)

% of Seasons in the Playoffs
Nuggets - .654 (.581 in NBA, 1.000 in ABA)
Nets - .519 (.465 in NBA, .778 in ABA)
Magic - .500
Raptors - .458

% of Seasons going as far as Conference Finals
Magic - .133
Nuggets - .115 (.070 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Raptors - .083

Playoff Series Win%
Raptors - .474
Nets - .429 (.367 in NBA, .583 in ABA)
Magic - .423
Nuggets - .277 (.286 in NBA, .250 in ABA)

% of Seasons going to Finals
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Magic - .067
Raptors - .042
Nuggets - .019 (n/a in NBA, .111 in ABA)

% of Seasons Winning Title
Raptors - .042
Nets - .038 (n/a in NBA, .222 in ABA)
Nuggets - n/a
Magic - n/a

[trex_8063]

fwiw, don't know how all of us seemed to overlook the Magic up to now. Not that I think they should be in already, but based on the above (that's from a 30-year sample, btw), they clearly appear very much in the mix among these teams.

[penbeast0]

Using the same criteria I have been, what team would I most like to have been a fan of since the beginning, I have to go with the Denver Nuggets. Yes they have been terrible in the playoffs, and they had Carmelo Anthony plus David Thompson's drug addiction. But still, they have been a fun entertaining team in the regular season for most of their history. The playoff failures are souring but look at the other teams there and tell me you wouldn't rather have been a Denver fan than suffer as a Nets or Kings fan.

The Magic had the Shaq years and the Dwight years, they would be a legit choice as well. I did consider Toronto but, again, without last year, they are the bottom of the 4 and I think they need a bit more to be more fun than the Nuggets.

We should also include the 30th team, the Royals/Kings in there too. They fit in this company and someone might find them appealing as their vote.

Vote: The Denver Rockets/Nuggets.

[Dr Positivity]

Very hard

Nets - They did have 2 ABA titles (and 2 of the “best” ABA titles) and 2 finals albeit in a weak conference. However the period between those eras was AWFUL and have also been pretty bad since

Raptors - They have the best season and some other decent teams recently, but were bad up through early 2010s

Nuggets - As penbeast said they’ve always been a credible team (sort of a poor man’s Suns/Jazz among non title teams) and made an ABA finals... but a lot of early round losses, and no title

I think I rate Magic below Nets, both have 2 finals in NBA, but Nets have their ABA success

The Nets clearly got the best of the Nuggets in the ABA. Have the Nuggets done enough since then to overcome the gap? Considering the Nets made those finals, even if you consider a team like 09 Nuggets an unofficial silver medalist, the Kidd era is still as credible as any Nuggets teams. The 04 team also challenged the Pistons the most. Going to go with the Nets based on their ABA era being much better.

That leaves Raptors vs Nets. The Nets have the early success and some decent teams this decade, while the Raptors have the all around most impressive season. I think a season like 16 is not much worse than 02 or 03. The Raptors have the edge since their inception vs the Nets, while the Nets have been around longer and had success before but in another league. I’ll go with the team who did better in modern era

Vote Raptors

[Fadeaway_J]

I'll give a nod to the consistency of the Denver Nuggets here. The Raptors were bad-to-mediocre for way too long, and the Nets owe their finals appearances to the ineptitude of the early-2000s East. Orlando had a few strong peak years, but they also benefitted from winning the lottery at very opportune times (imagine getting the #1 pick again the year after drafting Shaq). Denver hasn't had the draft luck or the market advantages to make building a contender easy, so at this spot I can forgive their lack of playoff success.

[trex_8063]

Since the relative easy path to the finals has been mentioned in relation to the two NBA finals appearances for the Nets, I got curious and did a little study of my own, evaluating the path to reach the finals for every finals participant since the ABA/NBA merger (so that's the last 86 finals participants).

I started with a methodology similar to one displayed in another recent thread: just adding up the SRS of opponents faced. For late 70's/early 80's teams who only played TWO rounds to reach the finals, I prorated the cumulative SRS to THREE opponents (that is: multiplied by 1.5.........same effect as using average SRS faced).
But that doesn't give full consideration to what is arguably the biggest factor, which is the HIGHEST SRS faced. For example, consider the following hypothetical:

Team A faces a +3 SRS, a +3 SRS, and then a +3.5 SRS (total: +9.5).
Team B faces a 0 SRS, a +1 SRS, and then a +8 SRS (total: +9.0).

Using only the cumulative SRS method, Team A rates as having had the tougher path to the finals; but I think most of us would agree that Team B actually had it harder (because they had to go thru a +8 SRS team). So I wanted to give some added consideration to that highest SRS faced; though I didn't want to go too overboard with it, as that highest SRS is already part of the cumulative.

So while it's a bit arbitrary, I went with the following formula:

Cumulative SRS faced + (0.65 * Highest SRS faced)


Anyway, based on that formula for calculating difficulty of path to the finals, the '02 and '03 Nets paths rate 82nd and 78th (out of 86), fwiw.

[penbeast0]

Threw in the Kings. Math is a bit hasty but they don't look like a contender yet.

Some of the usual categories I've been providing the info for; including any team that could even remotely be a candidate here (I think).

*For the Nuggets and Nets, I've included (parenthetical) ABA/NBA splits.


rs Win%
Nuggets - .501 (.490 in NBA, .555 in ABA)
Magic - .480
Raptors - .470
Kings .456
Nets - .432 (.417 in NBA, .503 in ABA)


% of Seasons in the Playoffs
Nuggets - .654 (.581 in NBA, 1.000 in ABA)
Nets - .519 (.465 in NBA, .778 in ABA)
Magic - .500
Raptors - .458
Kings .358

% of Seasons going as far as Conference Finals
Magic - .133
Nuggets - .115 (.070 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Raptors - .083
Kings .074

Playoff Series Win%
Raptors - .474
Nets - .429 (.367 in NBA, .583 in ABA)
Magic - .423
Kings - .333
Nuggets - .277 (.286 in NBA, .250 in ABA)

% of Seasons going to Finals
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Magic - .067
Raptors - .042
Nuggets - .019 (n/a in NBA, .111 in ABA)
Kings .012

% of Seasons Winning Title
Raptors - .042
Nets - .038 (n/a in NBA, .222 in ABA)
Kings .012
Nuggets - n/a
Magic - n/a

[trex_8063]

Threw in the Kings. Math is a bit hasty but they don't look like a contender yet.

Some of the usual categories I've been providing the info for; including any team that could even remotely be a candidate here (I think).

*For the Nuggets and Nets, I've included (parenthetical) ABA/NBA splits.


rs Win%
Nuggets - .501 (.490 in NBA, .555 in ABA)
Magic - .480
Raptors - .470
Kings .456
Nets - .432 (.417 in NBA, .503 in ABA)


% of Seasons in the Playoffs
Nuggets - .654 (.581 in NBA, 1.000 in ABA)
Nets - .519 (.465 in NBA, .778 in ABA)
Magic - .500
Raptors - .458
Kings .358

% of Seasons going as far as Conference Finals
Magic - .133
Nuggets - .115 (.070 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Raptors - .083
Kings .074

Playoff Series Win%
Raptors - .474
Nets - .429 (.367 in NBA, .583 in ABA)
Magic - .423
Kings - .333
Nuggets - .277 (.286 in NBA, .250 in ABA)

% of Seasons going to Finals
Nets - .096 (.047 in NBA, .333 in ABA)
Magic - .067
Raptors - .042
Nuggets - .019 (n/a in NBA, .111 in ABA)
Kings .012

% of Seasons Winning Title
Raptors - .042
Nets - .038 (n/a in NBA, .222 in ABA)
Kings .012
Nuggets - n/a
Magic - n/a

Yeah, they got serious consideration for #26 when we were doing the bottom of the list, and I recall a comment or two after #26 had been decided that they were the "clear #25".

[penbeast0]

Well, they were the only unranked team we didn't have in the list, it seemed cruel to leave only them out.

[trex_8063]

This is a tough one (between Raptors and Nuggets for me). The Nuggets have been SO much more consistent in making it to the playoffs, but then have one of the most abysmal records of any team in those playoffs. We can take '19 away from the Raptors [the effect of which is not "diluted" by many years in the league], and they still have a better playoff record than the Nuggets.

And then there's Toronto's one title (something Denver's failed to do in either league, in 52 total years existence), which is sort of impressive of an expansion team with less than 2.5 decades history.
idk, it's super close; but I had been leaning toward Raptors in the last thread, and only uncertainly at the last minute switched to Bullets/Wiz. So I'll vote Toronto Raptors, just to make it interesting .

[trex_8063]

We have a tie vote:

Raptors - 2
Nuggets - 2


I'll leave it open a few more hours and hope we get another vote that decides it.

EDIT: quoting a few sometime participants in hopes of getting at least one additional vote that may decide it....

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[trex_8063]

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Really? No one willing to break this tie? Quoting a few more sometime participants this time....

[Cavsfansince84]

I'll vote Raptors due to the title and decent sustained rs success over the last 15 years.

[trex_8063]

Thank you for breaking the tie. We're well over the time limit, so I'll call it for the Raptors. Will have the next up in a moment.