PC Board OT Thread Take 4 [No Politics]

[sp6r=underrated]

One other example of NFLPA weakness: there are still teams in Green Bay and Buffalo. If the union had any power those teams would have been moved to more attractive cities.

Both MLB and NBA have teams in locations most players dislike but neither has anything similar to Buffalo or Green Bay. If you put an MLB/NBA team there they faced significant talent retention problems beyond the ones caused by poor revenue streams.

This has nothing to do with the union. This has to do with every single NFL team is in the black strictly from TV money. So they don't have to pull teams from smaller markets to chase every last local dollar. Most other sports leagues are largely regional--they have regional TV deals and fans are watching one specific team much more than they are watching the league as a whole.

The NFL transcends that. It only has national TV deals and we see in the ratings, if its NFL people are tuning in regardless of teams playing. Yes the Cowboys and a couple of teams give a bump, but the Shield is the product much more than the teams or players.

If the players union was stronger, players would have real free agency unlike the BS free agency they currently have. I'm quite confident Buffalo and Green Bay aren't viable cities for high human capital workers. Those cities would struggle to attract players. Other cities would offer better deals and they'd move. Green Bay almost did move to Milwaukee in the 80s.

[Texas Chuck]

One other example of NFLPA weakness: there are still teams in Green Bay and Buffalo. If the union had any power those teams would have been moved to more attractive cities.

Both MLB and NBA have teams in locations most players dislike but neither has anything similar to Buffalo or Green Bay. If you put an MLB/NBA team there they faced significant talent retention problems beyond the ones caused by poor revenue streams.

This has nothing to do with the union. This has to do with every single NFL team is in the black strictly from TV money. So they don't have to pull teams from smaller markets to chase every last local dollar. Most other sports leagues are largely regional--they have regional TV deals and fans are watching one specific team much more than they are watching the league as a whole.

The NFL transcends that. It only has national TV deals and we see in the ratings, if its NFL people are tuning in regardless of teams playing. Yes the Cowboys and a couple of teams give a bump, but the Shield is the product much more than the teams or players.

If the players union was stronger, players would have real free agency unlike the BS free agency they currently have. I'm quite confident Buffalo and Green Bay aren't viable cities for high human capital workers. Those cities would struggle to attract players. Other cities would offer better deals and they'd move. Green Bay almost did move to Milwaukee in the 80s.

No union has the power to force employers to relocate because they'd rather work in Columbus or San Antonio than Green Bay or Buffalo.

Free agency is a different topic. The NFL players are hurt because QB's are the only position that drives winning so they get paid and other positions outside of the stars, don't make what their peers in other sports can make. Plus careers are so short that players really have to fear work stoppages because they aren't going to make it back over the long-term.

I'm all for strong unions. But teams being in Green Bay and Buffalo aren't a reflection of weakness in the NFLPA. And honestly we don't see location being a really driving force for players the way we see it in baseball and basketball. Players aren't desperate to get to NY or LA or Miami. I think that's largely overblown anyway. Sure that matters to a couple guys, but not everyone wants to be in glamour markets.

[sp6r=underrated]

No union has the power to force employers to relocate because they'd rather work in Columbus or San Antonio than Green Bay or Buffalo.

High human capital workers drive worksites all the time. To be blunt Green Bay and Buffalo are markedly worse places to live than the typical pro city. The offer none of the big city amentities, are in the middle of nowhere, and have terrible climates. People with options, unless they were born there, don't want to live there.

I'm all for strong unions. But teams being in Green Bay and Buffalo aren't a reflection of weakness in the NFLPA. And honestly we don't see location being a really driving force for players the way we see it in baseball and basketball.

Location doesn't matter for NFL players because they have no power. If they had options it would matter the same way it does for baseball players, CEOs, doctors and other people with highly in-demand skills.

Players aren't desperate to get to NY or LA or Miami. I think that's largely overblown anyway. Sure that matters to a couple guys, but not everyone wants to be in glamour markets.

First, pet peeve of mine but Miami is not on NY/LA tier. There are only two global cities in the US and it is NY/LA. Second there are tiers of cities

Alpha (NY/LA)
Large Mid-Market (Chicago, Dallas, Miami, DC, etc.)
Small Mid Market (Tampa)
Small Market

Buffalo and Green Bay don't even meet small market standards. You don't think Packers players would markedly prefer Milwaukee over Green Bay.

[Texas Chuck]

High human capital workers drive worksites all the time.

I'd love some examples of other unions that forced Fortune 500 companies to relocate because they collectively wanted to live somewhere else. Do you think all the autoworkers wanted to live in Detroit/Flint? Everyone in insurance in Omaha or Hartford?

Maybe this is happening, where unions have relocated worksites, but I am unfamiliar with them. I know some companies do try and take their employee's quality of life/cost of living into account, but I don't believe that is union driven. And mostly they relocate because they receive major incentive to do so.

Obviously individuals have the leverage to change employers, but the NFL has an antitrust exemption making them the only realistic game in town for professional football players. So even Aaron Rogers or Pat Mahomes or Tom Brady only has so many options. This isn't like being a cardiac surgeon or a rain-making attorney, or a great sales rep.

[sp6r=underrated]

High human capital workers drive worksites all the time.

I'd love some examples of other unions that forced Fortune 500 companies to relocate because they collectively wanted to live somewhere else. Do you think all the autoworkers wanted to live in Detroit/Flint? Everyone in insurance in Omaha or Hartford?

Maybe this is happening, where unions have relocated worksites, but I am unfamiliar with them. I know some companies do try and take their employee's quality of life/cost of living into account, but I don't believe that is union driven. And mostly they relocate because they receive major incentive to do so.

Obviously individuals have the leverage to change employers, but the NFL has an antitrust exemption making them the only realistic game in town for professional football players. So even Aaron Rogers or Pat Mahomes or Tom Brady only has so many options. This isn't like being a cardiac surgeon or a rain-making attorney, or a great sales rep.

You misunderstand me. My argument isn't:

1. NFLPA is weak
2. If NFLPA was stronger they would demand teams move.
3. Owners would cave.

My argument is:

1. NFLPA is extremely weak.
2. The CBA is tilted wildely toward the owners.
3. As a result free agency is largely a sham in the NFL. You enter the league through the draft. You face restricted free agency and franchise tags. And even if you reach unrestricted free agency, with your body intact, the NFL has a hard cap so most teams have little cap room.
4. If the NFLPA was stronger the NFL wouldn't have a hard cap, it wouldn't have franchise tags.
5. NFL Players would then have autonomy to select the teams they want to play for,.
6. Buffalo/Green Bay wouldn't be able to retain/attract the good players. They'd never keep top, top players.
7. Those teams would have chronically bad records and go the way of the Expos with relocation likely.


As an aside professional athletes even though they are unionized aren't similar to assembly line workers. They are the Wizards of Wall Street, Caltech/MIT geniuses, etc. And people like that do have a lot of say with their employers. White collar workers, much more replaceable than NFL players, have managed to get a lot more remote work

[PaulieWal]

High human capital workers drive worksites all the time.

I'd love some examples of other unions that forced Fortune 500 companies to relocate because they collectively wanted to live somewhere else. Do you think all the autoworkers wanted to live in Detroit/Flint? Everyone in insurance in Omaha or Hartford?

Maybe this is happening, where unions have relocated worksites, but I am unfamiliar with them. I know some companies do try and take their employee's quality of life/cost of living into account, but I don't believe that is union driven. And mostly they relocate because they receive major incentive to do so.

Obviously individuals have the leverage to change employers, but the NFL has an antitrust exemption making them the only realistic game in town for professional football players. So even Aaron Rogers or Pat Mahomes or Tom Brady only has so many options. This isn't like being a cardiac surgeon or a rain-making attorney, or a great sales rep.

Yeah, I don't know. If we let "high human capital workers" (whatever that means lol) in the NBA or any other league force teams to relocate out of small markets or "undesirable cities", we would only have pro sports teams in 4 or 5 cities in North America - NYC, LA, Miami, SF, Vegas. These "high human capital workers" would actually lead to contraction of the business and loss of jobs for their own leagues and fellow employees.

[PaulieWal]

6. Buffalo/Green Bay wouldn't be able to retain/attract the good players. They'd never keep top, top players.

Good luck jamming pro sports teams in 4 or 5 (see my point above, if you just let players decide where to play) cities across the USA. Would lead to severe contraction of the league, decline in revenues, and loss of jobs IMO.

I am not sure about the NFL but for the NBA gate revenue still makes up for over 30% of the revenue (source one of Zach Lowe's podcasts as they were discussing the hit of covid to the league with empty arenas etc.)

[Texas Chuck]

Paige Bueckers with a season ending injury..... Sucks because I think we are likely never going to get the fully realized version of what she could have been. Her high school tape though was super fun.

[penbeast0]

6. Buffalo/Green Bay wouldn't be able to retain/attract the good players. They'd never keep top, top players.

Good luck jamming pro sports teams in 4 or 5 (see my point above, if you just let players decide where to play) cities across the USA. Would lead to severe contraction of the league, decline in revenues, and loss of jobs IMO.

I am not sure about the NFL but for the NBA gate revenue still makes up for over 30% of the revenue (source one of Zach Lowe's podcasts as they were discussing the hit of covid to the league with empty arenas etc.)

You keep the current draft format more or less, give 3 years of control, then make sure that there's a financial incentive to stay in the city that drafts you. And, have only 1 max money player, 1 2nd money player, 1 3rd money player per team. You also have to make sure that while there's an incentive to be with the good teams (playoff money), it isn't good enough to make a 2nd money player in Sacramento leave for Los Angeles for purely contract financial reasons. Some players will go to NY or LA anyway but most will stay for the extra money.

I did a whole rule set for it once but it runs 3-4 pages.

[falcolombardi]

My last games watched are wade vs lebron regular season 2006 (both go for 40+) and suns vs lakers gane 5 in 2010

My thoughts on the latter first

Lakers

-this whole game is like a weird crossroads point between the slow and methodical post heavy basketball of the 90's and 00's vs the early steps of the modern free flowing spacing pick and roll offenses. Really interesting to watch inbetween a modern and older game to see clearly where the transition point was

-i rooted heavily against the lakers in the late 00's when i had started following the league, but man i just have so much appreciation for them now.

-Their duo of high quality passing big men and high IQ guards made for a syrprisingly fluid passing offense for a team that still played a 90's style Molasses-ball slow triangle offense full of isolations

-Odom in particular is someone i have been so impressed with recently that i wonder why he was not a bigger star than he was. Huge, could handle the ball, looks like the best passer and IQ player in a team with gasol and kobe (i am halfway convinced he was more gifted and smarter thsn gasol by a small margin) although meh jumper and post moves

he is like a walmart great value version of young pre prime lebron which feels like it should still be a permanent all star level of player

Suns

Nash is just brilliant as a tough shot maker, kobe is righttfully praised as a goat level "though shot maker" but nash must not be too far off. So many awkward layups and jumpshot touching nothingh but net. Jumping forward leaning jumpers looking smoother than some players set shots

This ability to jump shot while running out of nowhere opens up his jump passing threat as he switches last minute to a great pass mid air that looks like it was planned

-suns players, stoudamire in particular, have a impressive knack for reacting and taking advantage of nash wild forays to the paint. cutting with fantastic opportunity or popping into open jumpers and timely cuts. It looks so smooth and precise.... it honestly reminds me of a bizzarro motion offense where the rest of the team reads and reacts to nash spontaneous ideas

-i think the notion nash was the only "thinking" passer in that team as a criticism of his ball dominance or that heliocentric offenses make non ballhandlers take no decisions or reads quesrionable watching this

-he was not a perfect passer tho. There is the odd missed layup pass or overly ambitious interior pass being deflect3d when 3's and wide open 2's were right there and with zero risk

-his handle and ability to use crossover and creative dribbling to get by everyone is just brilliant although his height clearly limits his scoring and passing angles multiple times where a bigger wing could score or have bettwr passing options

Other thoughts

He played well but i thought grant hill was too passive, not taking the fast break or driving chances. He even gave up on a fastbreak where the only deterrent against him was derek fisher

Sasha vujacic, richardson, frye and fisher were the unsung heroes of this game for both teams

SASHA THE MACHINE VUJACIC totally outplaying Goran dragic when they played vs each other their minutes was why suns lost this game and maybe the conference. Something i didnt expect

Kobe missed shot and kobe assist buzzer beater for the win lmao

[sp6r=underrated]

Love this post alltogether especially his point about the Lakers passing. Phil is a dick. But his teams played beautiful passing basketball so many times. The 94 Bulls are a gem. It is a shame when Pippen left Chicago he went to an iso squad. Dude was built for motion offenses.

He played well but i thought grant hill was too passive, not taking the fast break or driving chances. He even gave up on a fastbreak where the only deterrent against him was derek fisher

This has always been my take on Hill as well. He suffered from a lack of in-game assertiveness, which is why I always chuckle a little when he gets compared to Lebron. And lack of assertiveness is just as much of a problem as being overly assertive. He has number 1 player's ability, athleticism and work ethic but was never going to fully maximize his potential with this flaw. He was built to be a # 2 even if the player he deferred to was in many ways his inferior.

The mid-90s drafts had a lot of talented players derailed by injuries. But Mourning and Penny hit me as on their own tier for the impact their lost years caused.

[falcolombardi]

Love this post alltogether especially his point about the Lakers passing. Phil is a dick. But his teams played beautiful passing basketball so many times. The 94 Bulls are a gem. It is a shame when Pippen left Chicago he went to an iso squad. Dude was built for motion offenses.

He played well but i thought grant hill was too passive, not taking the fast break or driving chances. He even gave up on a fastbreak where the only deterrent against him was derek fisher

This has always been my take on Hill as well. He suffered from a lack of in-game assertiveness, which is why I always chuckle a little when he gets compared to Lebron. And lack of assertiveness is just as much of a problem as being overly assertive. He has number 1 player's ability, athleticism and work ethic but was never going to fully maximize his potential with this flaw. He was built to be a # 2 even if the player he deferred to was in many ways his inferior.

The mid-90s drafts had a lot of talented players derailed by injuries. But Mourning and Penny hit me as on their own tier for the impact their lost years caused.

There is a play by hill that is just striking

He blocks shannon brown 3 pointer with impressive timing, then runs as a target man for the fastbreak gaining advantage over everyone except derek fisher in the paint

Instead of going to the rim against the much, much smaller fisher he stops and passes backwards to nash (who is running with a laker wing glued to him, shannon brown i think) and murks the play.

The whole play honestly gave me ben simmons vs trae young flashbacks lmao

[sp6r=underrated]

Love this post alltogether especially his point about the Lakers passing. Phil is a dick. But his teams played beautiful passing basketball so many times. The 94 Bulls are a gem. It is a shame when Pippen left Chicago he went to an iso squad. Dude was built for motion offenses.

He played well but i thought grant hill was too passive, not taking the fast break or driving chances. He even gave up on a fastbreak where the only deterrent against him was derek fisher

This has always been my take on Hill as well. He suffered from a lack of in-game assertiveness, which is why I always chuckle a little when he gets compared to Lebron. And lack of assertiveness is just as much of a problem as being overly assertive. He has number 1 player's ability, athleticism and work ethic but was never going to fully maximize his potential with this flaw. He was built to be a # 2 even if the player he deferred to was in many ways his inferior.

The mid-90s drafts had a lot of talented players derailed by injuries. But Mourning and Penny hit me as on their own tier for the impact their lost years caused.

There is a play by hill that is just striking

He blocks shannon brown 3 pointer with impressive timing, then runs as a target man for the fastbreak gaining advantage over everyone except derek fisher in the paint

Instead of going to the rim against the much, much smaller fisher he stops and passes backwards to nash (who is running with a laker wing glued to him, shannon brown i think) and murks the play.

The whole play honestly gave me ben simmons vs trae young flashbacks lmao

I haven't seen the play in over a decade, if I've saw it at all, but I can totally picture Hill doing that. It wasn't yips with Hill. He just wasn't comfortable asserting himself over the opposition consistently enough.

We make fun of guys like Russ for being overly assertive but Hill's tendencies can be just as problematic.

[falcolombardi]

Is insane how much pain scottie pippen seems to be in during the 98 finals game 6

Is also insane how little credit he got for playing so clearly in ridiculpus pain to help bulls win that ring

I am biased as a fan of pippen play but you cannot convince me flu game jordan was more hurt that pippen here lol

Also jazz screwed up so many possesions with some of the less forced turnovers i have ever seen lmao (and eisley waved off 3 insanely bad call didnt do them any favors)

I think the fact jazz was so small in the wings hurt them a ton as they had to guard pippen with hornacek so much and send so many doubles that scottie punished with passing. Allowing pippen to be effective even with his back issues

[ronnymac2]

Is insane how much pain scottie pippen seems to be in during the 98 finals game 6

Is also insane how little credit he got for playing so clearly in ridiculpus pain to help bulls win that ring

I am biased as a fan of pippen play but you cannot convince me flu game jordan was more hurt that pippen here lol

Also jazz screwed up so many possesions with some of the less forced turnovers i have ever seen lmao (and eisley waved off 3 insanely bad call didnt do them any favors)

I think the fact jazz was so small in the wings hurt them a ton as they had to guard pippen with hornacek so much and send so many doubles that scottie punished with passing. Allowing pippen to be effective even with his back issues

Yes. Utah had a tremendous problem with big physical wings and guards throughout the 90s. Drexler destroyed them in the West (especially with HOU in '95). Jordan and Pippen was a matchup nightmare for them. Those late 90's Utah teams were good on defense, but it was mainly concentrated up front defending bigs with Malone, Ostertag, and big bodies off the bench.

Scottie played valiantly through that injury. Jordan's hangover game is stuff of legend now, yet all anybody remembers about Scottie playing through a legit injury in '98 was MJ carrying him. Kind of makes sense Scottie is so salty now (though obviously he played it up to sell a book).

[falcolombardi]

Is insane how much pain scottie pippen seems to be in during the 98 finals game 6

Is also insane how little credit he got for playing so clearly in ridiculpus pain to help bulls win that ring

I am biased as a fan of pippen play but you cannot convince me flu game jordan was more hurt that pippen here lol

Also jazz screwed up so many possesions with some of the less forced turnovers i have ever seen lmao (and eisley waved off 3 insanely bad call didnt do them any favors)

I think the fact jazz was so small in the wings hurt them a ton as they had to guard pippen with hornacek so much and send so many doubles that scottie punished with passing. Allowing pippen to be effective even with his back issues

Yes. Utah had a tremendous problem with big physical wings and guards throughout the 90s. Drexler destroyed them in the West (especially with HOU in '95). Jordan and Pippen was a matchup nightmare for them. Those late 90's Utah teams were good on defense, but it was mainly concentrated up front defending bigs with Malone, Ostertag, and big bodies off the bench.

Scottie played valiantly through that injury. Jordan's hangover game is stuff of legend now, yet all anybody remembers about Scottie playing through a legit injury in '98 was MJ carrying him. Kind of makes sense Scottie is so salty now (though obviously he played it up to sell a book).

Between getting zero credit for battling through injury in 98. And being blamed for having a migraine in 90 vs pistons

One can see how pippen may have started to feel bitter towards the credit he got

[Goudelock]

Because the GB thread about the Wizards is now being derailed by people talking about productive wives or some ****, I'm just gonna post this here.

Is there any crappy team who you'd rather see a 2 hour documentary on than the 2009-10 Washington Wizards? Aside from Javaris Crittenton, look at some of the names on this roster (and just how many people played on this team):

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2010.html

You've got Gilbert Arenas, you've got a young JaVale McGee and Nick Young and Andray Blatche and DeShawn Stevenson, you have pros like Antawn Jamison and Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood and Earl Bokyin, and lastly you have Shaun Livingston trying to get his career back on track after a horrific injury.

I'd watch the hell out of a doc on what the different guys on the team thought about that locker room.

[falcolombardi]

Some quick thoughta about dallas vs oklahoma game 4 (man how did okc choke this lmao)

Okc wise

Westbrook: you can already see the core of what westbrook would become in his peak

Great passing strentches where he hits precision bullets on the break or pick and roll preceded by the most unforced passes to the oxigen in the air cause he thought a player would be there. Those familiar with the russel westbrook experience will remember how he can be a great passer one quarter and a terrivle one the next quarter

He is a monster athlete, hustle plays and great rebounding even takibg battled rebounds vs tyson chandler. Smooth eurostep and dribbles in transition.
His handles having always been underated is an agenda i often push

He can hit his midranges and tough layups moderately well. A skill he absurdly lost with age

Harden already has a lot of his ball handling moves. Quality passing and getting people arms trapped for fouls on drives. The driving and finishing still are not what they will become later

Durant is good at passing out of double teams thanks to his height but struggles when he gets blitzed mid dribble. Easily panics and throws a bad pass to avoid turnovers. It doesnt helps that he likes to loosely bounce the ball up court in spots whete he can get trapped against the sidenline

He has a great driving game once he explodes of his first step. Good rin protection and shot blocing at times with his lenght. And really hard to defend in transition with his speed

He is a worse passer than dirk and doesnt pass to the open man so quickly and oncd starts his move for a pull up he is not gonna pass the ball to any open player.

Ibaka has a smooth midrange jumper i didnt remember him having so early and monster leaping for help-side blocks

Dallas side

Dirk: cannot understate how good dirk is in 2011

I think his passing is the most underated. Not because he is always making absurd reads or pass fakes or touch passing or all the stuff jokic/bird/magic/etc do

But because he makes easy and obvious passes everytime and quickly. He keeps the ball moving. Passes to the open man everytime there is one and quicklt passes the ball to the man inside for interior dishes

Are these passes "easy" compared to threading a bounce pass between 4 players or a no look behind the back assist? Yes.

Does it matter? Not much. Dirk keeps the offense flowing and does exactly the good pass he needs to do every time even if he doesnt see or try the ultra great ones.

He has a historically low turnover rste and this is probably part of it

Off ball he frequently helps his guards get good looks in the pick and roll or creates driving lanes when a big doesnt want to leave him a single inch or front hims to prevent his post up game

When he isolates he has no issue passing out of it to wjoever gets open and is extremely crafty with his post and driving game.

Even though he has a stiffer handle he uses it well and in linited doses to the point he actually gets less turnovers and more drives througg tight paths than durant. And i think his use of his body to protect the ball is part of why

Overall just a monster offensive player.

Defensively....i think he was....ok? No great help defense saves or rim protection, fine defensive rebounding. Ok in the pick amd roll hedges. Dunno i dont think he was there making a clear impact but also didnt feel like a defense weak point. His height allways helps on defense and dallas got away with a 2-big lineup thanks to his offensive skillset

In the modern game i am more concerned about him being taken to the perimeter more in isolation

[Jaivl]

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Players are horrible talent evaluators who don't watch games, part 23892

[falcolombardi]

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Players are horrible talent evaluators who don't watch games, part 23892

The stockton versus magic one is just so random lol