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A few weeks ago, I found out that BBRef introduced a statistic called TS Add that is equivalent to one of my Score+ metrics. I reached out to them, and they've now acknowledged Score+ in their blog post about it: https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/06/adjusted-shooting-stats-added-to-basketball-reference/

I'm pretty chuffed!

HeartBreakKid wrote:
How were players held to a higher standard to politicians with the China thing?

Players refuse to criticize China purely for financial gain. That might be fair, but the same season they're saying it's not all about money when protesting injustices against black Americans. There seems to be ground for criticism there.

People don't expect players to be intelligent, informed, or unselfish, which is one reason we celebrate those that are. These are stereotypically kids who didn't go to college (or only went to play basketball). However, politicians hold themselves out as people who are doing the best thing for America. People don't believe in them (and shouldn't) but they put themselves out front as moral characters acting for the country; we SHOULD hold them to those standards and it's upsetting when we don't.

penbeast0 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
How were players held to a higher standard to politicians with the China thing?

Players refuse to criticize China purely for financial gain. That might be fair, but the same season they're saying it's not all about money when protesting injustices against black Americans. There seems to be ground for criticism there.

People don't expect players to be intelligent, informed, or unselfish, which is one reason we celebrate those that are. These are stereotypically kids who didn't go to college (or only went to play basketball). However, politicians hold themselves out as people who are doing the best thing for America. People don't believe in them (and shouldn't) but they put themselves out front as moral characters acting for the country; we SHOULD hold them to those standards and it's upsetting when we don't.

I just think its dumb when someone fights for one specific cause that we try and dismiss them because they aren't fighting for this other cause(and the ones doing the criticizing don't care about that cause either, but are just trying to diminish the person because they don't like their actual causes.).

Like hey Mother Theresa, all that great work you did in Calcutta is meaningless because you aren't also addressing climate change. Or those addressing Malaria or digging wells in Africa, aren't protesting the treatment of journalists in totalitarian regimes.

It's pure bullcrap. You don't get to decide what causes matter to somebody else. "what about China?" is utter rubbish and everyone asking it knows it and so should all of us.

Texas Chuck wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
How were players held to a higher standard to politicians with the China thing?

Players refuse to criticize China purely for financial gain. That might be fair, but the same season they're saying it's not all about money when protesting injustices against black Americans. There seems to be ground for criticism there.

People don't expect players to be intelligent, informed, or unselfish, which is one reason we celebrate those that are. These are stereotypically kids who didn't go to college (or only went to play basketball). However, politicians hold themselves out as people who are doing the best thing for America. People don't believe in them (and shouldn't) but they put themselves out front as moral characters acting for the country; we SHOULD hold them to those standards and it's upsetting when we don't.

I just think its dumb when someone fights for one specific cause that we try and dismiss them because they aren't fighting for this other cause(and the ones doing the criticizing don't care about that cause either, but are just trying to diminish the person because they don't like their actual causes.).

Like hey Mother Theresa, all that great work you did in Calcutta is meaningless because you aren't also addressing climate change. Or those addressing Malaria or digging wells in Africa, aren't protesting the treatment of journalists in totalitarian regimes.

It's pure bullcrap. You don't get to decide what causes matter to somebody else. "what about China?" is utter rubbish and everyone asking it knows it and so should all of us.

Xinjiang and BLM are both ethnic issues, so there is actual grounds for possible hypocrisy. Forced labor and censorship are different issues. Creating missionaries and charities is totally different from climate change. The mistreatment of minorities in China and the mistreatment of minorities in USA are not that different morally.

The NBA is very aware of what is happening in China, and only tells everyone to look the other way for purely financial gain - which is quite hard to dispute. So unlike the examples you listed the NBA is involved in both markets

penbeast0 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
How were players held to a higher standard to politicians with the China thing?

Players refuse to criticize China purely for financial gain. That might be fair, but the same season they're saying it's not all about money when protesting injustices against black Americans. There seems to be ground for criticism there.

People don't expect players to be intelligent, informed, or unselfish, which is one reason we celebrate those that are. These are stereotypically kids who didn't go to college (or only went to play basketball). However, politicians hold themselves out as people who are doing the best thing for America. People don't believe in them (and shouldn't) but they put themselves out front as moral characters acting for the country; we SHOULD hold them to those standards and it's upsetting when we don't.

But this is a non argument because politicians are held to much higher standards for their stance on China than players are. Saying otherwise is just being dramatic.

If you are pro ethnic cleansing in any sense, then that is grounds for criticism. That does not mean you are being held to a higher standard than a politican...it's a much more punishable stance for a politician.

Who are these NBA players who have been punished severely for being PRO China? If anything being Anti-China is much greater grounds for criticism.

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Xinjiang and BLM are both ethnic issues, so there is actual grounds for possible hypocrisy.

Sure, if you are looking for reasons to dismiss their cause. Lots of people fight for causes that are deeply personal. They know what its like to be black in America. How its impacted themselves, their families, and their communities. I don't think its remotely reasonable to expect them to have the same energy for China.


Michael J Fox and his foundation have raised millions of dollars for Parkinson's research because it affected him personally. Calling him a hypocrite for not raising equal money for AIDS or breast cancer would be utter nonsense.

Just as those players who are working for equal justice for black Americans aren't hypocrites for not doing the same for those affected in China.

Texas Chuck wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Xinjiang and BLM are both ethnic issues, so there is actual grounds for possible hypocrisy.

Sure, if you are looking for reasons to dismiss their cause. Lots of people fight for causes that are deeply personal. They know what its like to be black in America. How its impacted themselves, their families, and their communities. I don't think its remotely reasonable to expect them to have the same energy for China.

They should not. They have their bias. They do not have to protest against China, but if it's brought up to them and they make a stance supporting China treatment of minorities - then that is entirely different from what you have said.

Also, protest for minorities only work if people not from that ethnic group also jump in. BLM would not work if there was not empathy from non-blacks.

So regardless, empathy among the African-American community would only be a positive thing, and yes, male African-Americans do by in large lack empathy toward other ethnic groups, religions, genders, and sexual orientations. It should be criticized and commented on, otherwise it will not change - hence, the appeal for movies like Moonlight.

One can criticize African-Americans without strawmanning to belittle their protest. You do not seem convinced of that because some with agendas will do so - which is inevitable in any type of political discussion.

Michael J Fox and his foundation have raised millions of dollars for Parkinson's research because it affected him personally. Calling him a hypocrite for not raising equal money for AIDS or breast cancer would be utter nonsense.

It would be nonsense, but that isn't the equivalent. The equivalent of that would be him saying we should NOT raise money for AIDS or breast cancer.

Just as those players who are working for equal justice for black Americans aren't hypocrites for not doing the same for those affected in China.

If they said something that supports oppressing minorities in any countries, then they would be hypocrites, among worse things.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Xinjiang and BLM are both ethnic issues, so there is actual grounds for possible hypocrisy.

Sure, if you are looking for reasons to dismiss their cause. Lots of people fight for causes that are deeply personal. They know what its like to be black in America. How its impacted themselves, their families, and their communities. I don't think its remotely reasonable to expect them to have the same energy for China.

They should not. They have their bias. They do not have to protest against China, but if it's brought up to them and they make a stance supporting China treatment of minorities - then that is entirely different from what you have said.

Also, protest for minorities only work if people not from that ethnic group also jump in. BLM would not work if there was not empathy from non-blacks.

So regardless, empathy among the African-American community would only be a positive thing, and yes, male African-Americans do by in large lack empathy toward other ethnic groups, religions, genders, and sexual orientations.

Michael J Fox and his foundation have raised millions of dollars for Parkinson's research because it affected him personally. Calling him a hypocrite for not raising equal money for AIDS or breast cancer would be utter nonsense.

It would be nonsense, but that isn't the equivalent. The equivalent of that would be him saying we should NOT raise money for AIDS or breast cancer.

Just as those players who are working for equal justice for black Americans aren't hypocrites for not doing the same for those affected in China.

If they said something that supports oppressing minorities in any countries, then they would be hypocrites, among worse things.

I guess I need you to send me some links to quotes of NBA players supporting mistreatment of minorities in China. Because if this is just that Lebron/Morey thing that wasn't remotely what he said.

Texas Chuck wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:
Sure, if you are looking for reasons to dismiss their cause. Lots of people fight for causes that are deeply personal. They know what its like to be black in America. How its impacted themselves, their families, and their communities. I don't think its remotely reasonable to expect them to have the same energy for China.

They should not. They have their bias. They do not have to protest against China, but if it's brought up to them and they make a stance supporting China treatment of minorities - then that is entirely different from what you have said.

Also, protest for minorities only work if people not from that ethnic group also jump in. BLM would not work if there was not empathy from non-blacks.

So regardless, empathy among the African-American community would only be a positive thing, and yes, male African-Americans do by in large lack empathy toward other ethnic groups, religions, genders, and sexual orientations.

Michael J Fox and his foundation have raised millions of dollars for Parkinson's research because it affected him personally. Calling him a hypocrite for not raising equal money for AIDS or breast cancer would be utter nonsense.

It would be nonsense, but that isn't the equivalent. The equivalent of that would be him saying we should NOT raise money for AIDS or breast cancer.

Just as those players who are working for equal justice for black Americans aren't hypocrites for not doing the same for those affected in China.

If they said something that supports oppressing minorities in any countries, then they would be hypocrites, among worse things.

I guess I need you to send me some links to quotes of NBA players supporting mistreatment of minorities in China. Because if this is just that Lebron/Morey thing that wasn't remotely what he said.

I feel like you are just making very large blanket statements, and are trying to argue something that isn't there.

I am saying what are grounds for criticisms. I am not saying Andrew Wiggins says genocide in China is great.


"One can criticize African-Americans without strawmanning to belittle their protest. You do not seem convinced of that because some with agendas will do so - which is inevitable in any type of political discussion."

HeartBreakKid wrote:"One can criticize African-Americans without strawmanning to belittle their protest. You do not seem convinced of that because some with agendas will do so - which is inevitable in any type of political discussion."

You specifically brought up China so my comments have all been in relation to that.

At no point did I suggest black NBA players are above criticism in general. I simply don't agree that working hard to improve the lives of black Americans and not working to do the same for minorities in China makes them hypocrites. You do. We are at an impasse and should probably leave it here.

Texas Chuck wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:"One can criticize African-Americans without strawmanning to belittle their protest. You do not seem convinced of that because some with agendas will do so - which is inevitable in any type of political discussion."

You specifically brought up China so my comments have all been in relation to that.

At no point did I suggest black NBA players are above criticism in general. I simply don't agree that working hard to improve the lives of black Americans and not working to do the same for minorities in China makes them hypocrites. You do. We are at an impasse and should probably leave it here.

I never said that either, you're just arguing things that aren't there. Just like that analogy of Mother Teresa and Climate Change.


I got a notification today from you, about a post that was made a month ago, and it's me QUOTING someone talking about China. So what the hell do you mean "I specifically brought up China". You and Pen are the ones who bumped the an old quote to specifically talk about China.

Not sure how the heck I created the discussion. I certainly did not reply to my own post from last month

deleted

penbeast0 wrote:LET'S TAKE THIS DISCUSSION TO THE POLITICS THREAD IN THE OFF TOPIC BOARD -- it's a good discussion and no name calling but this is a no politics thread.

Sorry beast. I was writing my post above before I saw this. I'll delete the content.

And my apologies to HBK. I intended no offense and wasn't aware his post was a month old. I saw yours and assumed it was ongoing.

Moonbeam wrote:A few weeks ago, I found out that BBRef introduced a statistic called TS Add that is equivalent to one of my Score+ metrics. I reached out to them, and they've now acknowledged Score+ in their blog post about it: https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/06/adjusted-shooting-stats-added-to-basketball-reference/

I'm pretty chuffed!

I'm so glad for you Moonbeam! With they'd collaborate with you more, but at least they acknowledge.

Moonbeam wrote:A few weeks ago, I found out that BBRef introduced a statistic called TS Add that is equivalent to one of my Score+ metrics. I reached out to them, and they've now acknowledged Score+ in their blog post about it: https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/06/adjusted-shooting-stats-added-to-basketball-reference/

I'm pretty chuffed!

Cool stuff!! I'm also looking into creating a metric that combines pace-adjusted points scored and relative TS%, but with a slightly different approach. It's a nice excuse to brush up on my data wrangling skills.

Hope to share the results soon!

so with Dirk's jersey retirement upcoming, I learned something its odd I never knew. But Dirk wore 41 because Barkley wore 14 for Team USA but Robert Pack had it in Dallas and wouldn't give it up so he reversed it.

Not sure how I never knew that, but I guess the Barkley/Dirk mutual admiration started early--I think most know of Chuck's story about trying to pay Dirk to go play for Auburn.

Texas Chuck wrote:This Paige Bueckers NIL deal is pretty interesting. On multiple levels. A female college athlete signing a major endorsement deal. The apparent influence she gets to have over her marketing and brand focus. How it might impact WNBA deals moving forward. Her teammate Azzi Fudd also.

Now she is the first collegiate athlete to sign with Gatorade. This woman is going to be a marketing force it appears.

Texas Chuck wrote:so with Dirk's jersey retirement upcoming, I learned something its odd I never knew. But Dirk wore 41 because Barkley wore 14 for Team USA but Robert Pack had it in Dallas and wouldn't give it up so he reversed it.

Not sure how I never knew that, but I guess the Barkley/Dirk mutual admiration started early--I think most know of Chuck's story about trying to pay Dirk to go play for Auburn.

I caught that clip the other day too! Couldn't believe I never knew that because of the story Barkley tells all the time. Makes more sense now.

Clyde Frazier wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:so with Dirk's jersey retirement upcoming, I learned something its odd I never knew. But Dirk wore 41 because Barkley wore 14 for Team USA but Robert Pack had it in Dallas and wouldn't give it up so he reversed it.

Not sure how I never knew that, but I guess the Barkley/Dirk mutual admiration started early--I think most know of Chuck's story about trying to pay Dirk to go play for Auburn.

I caught that clip the other day too! Couldn't believe I never knew that because of the story Barkley tells all the time. Makes more sense now.

I feel a lot less bad seeing that you didn't know either. Maybe Dirk never talked about it before?