Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen

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Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#1 » by GhosDini » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:31 pm

We all know Scottie Pippen is a 6-time NBA Champion, 6-time Conference Champion, and largely seen as an elite sidekick. Even though in his prime he was a consensus top 10 player in the league he never really gets credit for that. His legacy and greatness is 100% tied to the legacy and greatness of Michael Jordan. So even tho Scottie Pippen gets plenty of respect for his skills and abilities he will never able to step outside of Jordan's shadow. However, I don't think people quite realize how close Scottie came to leading a team to a title, on two separate occasions, without Michael Jordan.

In 1994 he and the Chicago Bulls were a bad call away from beating the Knicks without Michael Jordan and most likely advancing to the Finals. Scottie Pippen was also a literal one or two baskets away from leading the Portland Trailblazers past the Shaq and Kobe Lakers in 2000 after being down 3-1. Had the Blazers advanced to the Finals that year they most likely would have beaten Indiana for the title with Scottie or Rasheed Wallace taking home the Finals MVP.

In an alternate universe Scottie Pippen could be, and perhaps should be, a 7-time NBA Champion, 8-time Confernece Champion, 1-time Finals MVP, with two trips to the finals under his belt without Michael. Imagine how different Scottie Pippen would be viewed as an all time great. Right now Scottie Pippen is usually listed somewhere between the top 35-50 all time and seen as a mentally weak, bad leader. In this alternative universe Scottie Pippen gets bumped up about 20 spots and considered an elite, alpha, A+ level player rather than the mentally weak sidekick he's looked at as now.

Does Scottie Pippen get enough credit for the years he played without Micheal Jordan? When put into context Pippen more than proved himself as a his own man apart from Michael.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#2 » by Colbinii » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:00 pm

GhosDini wrote:We all know Scottie Pippen is a 6-time NBA Champion, 6-time Conference Champion, and largely seen as an elite sidekick. Even though in his prime he was a consensus top 10 player in the league he never really gets credit for that. His legacy and greatness is 100% tied to the legacy and greatness of Michael Jordan. So even tho Scottie Pippen gets plenty of respect for his skills and abilities he will never able to step outside of Jordan's shadow. However, I don't think people quite realize how close Scottie came to leading a team to a title, on two separate occasions, without Michael Jordan.


I think most people on this forum realize how close he was to getting a title; which was winning 3 more rounds against three very good teams in the New York Knicks, Indiana Pacers and then Hakeem and the Rockets.

I always find it amusing when people claim "Pippen came so close without Michael in 1994" and then you re-watch the series and Horace Grant, NOT Scottie Pippen, was the best Bull for the series.

Pippen was electric defensively for the Blazers in 2K but I don't think he was the clear-cut best player [and him winning Finals MVP was a long-shot but possible].

In 1994 he and the Chicago Bulls were a bad call away from beating the Knicks without Michael Jordan and most likely advancing to the Finals.


That is one way of looking at it. Another would be Pippen was inefficient throughout the series and his 20 points on 22 shots in game 7 was unimpressive. Maybe the Bulls win game 5 but that doesn't guarantee game 6 goes the same way and it certainly doesn't mean we can assume an exhausted team [5th straight deep run for Chicago in the Post-Season] is able to beat both Indiana AND the Rockets.

Scottie Pippen was also a literal one or two baskets away from leading the Portland Trailblazers past the Shaq and Kobe Lakers in 2000 after being down 3-1. Had the Blazers advanced to the Finals that year they most likely would have beaten Indiana for the title with Scottie or Rasheed Wallace taking home the Finals MVP.


Maybe they shouldn't have gone down 3-1, though in Pippen's defense his only bad game through the first 4-games was game 4 [and in fact he had some tremendous games before that point in the series].

In an alternate universe Scottie Pippen could be, and perhaps should be, a 7-time NBA Champion, 8-time Confernece Champion, 1-time Finals MVP, with two trips to the finals under his belt without Michael.


He could be, but it is highly unlikely. Certainly not a "Should be" [which is a blasphemous statement].

Imagine how different Scottie Pippen would be viewed as an all time great.


The people who LOVE accolades would vault him up the pole like a stripper.

If his play changes then I view him differently, but then again I would view any player different if their play changed; regardless of outcome.

Right now Scottie Pippen is usually listed somewhere between the top 35-50 all time and seen as a mentally weak, bad leader.


Really? I don't see him as mentally weak or a bad leader. I view him as a player who didn't have a consistent shot and couldn't be relied upon to score down the clutch but ultimately his other aspects of his game more than make-up for those weakness. In fact, I don't think people view him int he light you are describing if you asked someone on this forum about Scottie Pippen. I would venture to guess you would receive many compliments about his game; his defense was other-worldly for a Small Forward, his play-making and passing was rarely seen from a guy of his size and athleticism and his ability to compliment the best scorer of all-time makes him a portable player.

In this alternative universe Scottie Pippen gets bumped up about 20 spots and considered an elite, alpha, A+ level player rather than the mentally weak sidekick he's looked at as now.


So we are giving Scottie Pippen some of Michael Jordan's attributes now? Mighty Morphin PowerBulls.

Does Scottie Pippen get enough credit for the years he played without Micheal Jordan? When put into context Pippen more than proved himself as a his own man apart from Michael.


Yes, yes he does.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#3 » by GhosDini » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:55 pm

Colbinii wrote:I think most people on this forum realize how close he was to getting a title; which was winning 3 more rounds against three very good teams in the New York Knicks, Indiana Pacers and then Hakeem and the Rockets.

I always find it amusing when people claim "Pippen came so close without Michael in 1994" and then you re-watch the series and Horace Grant, NOT Scottie Pippen, was the best Bull for the series.

Pippen was electric defensively for the Blazers in 2K but I don't think he was the clear-cut best player [and him winning Finals MVP was a long-shot but possible].


So are you saying he didn't come close to beating the Knicks without Michael in 1994?

That is one way of looking at it. Another would be Pippen was inefficient throughout the series and his 20 points on 22 shots in game 7 was unimpressive. Maybe the Bulls win game 5 but that doesn't guarantee game 6 goes the same way and it certainly doesn't mean we can assume an exhausted team [5th straight deep run for Chicago in the Post-Season] is able to beat both Indiana AND the Rockets.


Of course none of this is guaranteed. However, I think it's most likely that Chicago take game 6 and would have a great chance to beat Indiana. I believe they lose to the Rockets. Still, Pippen leading the Bulls the finals without Michael in 1994 would be huge for his legacy. Well for those of us who value actual results and things.

Maybe they shouldn't have gone down 3-1, though in Pippen's defense his only bad game through the first 4-games was game 4 [and in fact he had some tremendous games before that point in the series]
.

Exactly. Although Rasheed Wallace was seen as the best player Pippen was seen as the leader for that team. And he played like it during that series all the way up until the final minutes of game 7. If they held on to win that game his legacy once again would have gotten a big boost.

He could be, but it is highly unlikely. Certainly not a "Should be" [which is a blasphemous statement].


I think he very likely would have beaten Pacers in both 94 and 00. The finals MVP in either year would be far from a given however I agree with that.

The people who LOVE accolades would vault him up the pole like a stripper.

If his play changes then I view him differently, but then again I would view any player different if their play changed; regardless of outcome.


People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.

I don't see Scottie Pippen as a bad leader


That's fine but most people do. It was his refusal to come out for the final possession when Kukoc hit the game winner. It was his migraines in the playoffs, Michael having to physically defend him against the Knicks & Pistons, his cracking under the pressure in the 1995 season prior to Jordan returning, failing to step up against the Lakers in the final minutes of game 7, and not having much success outside of his time with Chicago.

Had he broke through in 94 and/or 2000 he would be seen very different imo.

So we are giving Scottie Pippen some of Michael Jordan's attributes now? Mighty Morphin PowerBulls.


Huh?

Yes, yes he does


Perhaps
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#4 » by Sark » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:06 pm

They weren't a bad call away from beating the Knicks. That was a foul since Pippen hit Davis' hand. It shouldn't even be up for debate considering the fouls we see in today's game, where a shooter can kick his foot out into a defender, and get a foul called.

In fact they were probably closer to getting swept, or at least going down 0-3, if not for the incredible shot by Toni Kukoc, which Pippen famously took himself out of the play for.


To answer your question, yes he gets enough credit for his career. He has a career slash line of 16/6/5, on pretty low efficiency. Obviously he was an all time great defender, but most players with those type of stats, and lacking any major career accolades or awards, do not get themselves mentioned in top 30 or 40 lists, which Pippen does.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#5 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:42 pm

In another timeline, the Knicks could've drafted Pippen:

November 12, 1986: Traded by the New York Knicks (as a future 1987 1st round draft pick) with a 1990 2nd round draft pick (Steve Henson was later selected) to the Seattle SuperSonics for Gerald Henderson and a 1987 1st round draft pick (Mark Jackson was later selected).
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#6 » by Colbinii » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:45 pm

GhosDini wrote:
Colbinii wrote:I think most people on this forum realize how close he was to getting a title; which was winning 3 more rounds against three very good teams in the New York Knicks, Indiana Pacers and then Hakeem and the Rockets.

I always find it amusing when people claim "Pippen came so close without Michael in 1994" and then you re-watch the series and Horace Grant, NOT Scottie Pippen, was the best Bull for the series.

Pippen was electric defensively for the Blazers in 2K but I don't think he was the clear-cut best player [and him winning Finals MVP was a long-shot but possible].


So are you saying he didn't come close to beating the Knicks without Michael in 1994?


Not at all. I am saying that the Bulls would have had to win 3 more series [They lost to the Knicks and didn't play in the Eastern Conference Finals or in the NBA Finals] to win a title.

You said "People don't realize how close he was" and I respectfully disagree. Perhaps in different social circles it is forgotten how close [or far] away Pippen was, but the reality is he needed to win 3 more series in 1994 [He won 1 series] to win a title.

Of course none of this is guaranteed. However, I think it's most likely that Chicago take game 6 and would have a great chance to beat Indiana. I believe they lose to the Rockets. Still, Pippen leading the Bulls the finals without Michael in 1994 would be huge for his legacy. Well for those of us who value actual results and things.


Yes it would have been huge for Pippen had he played better and the Bulls going to the Finals being a direct result of his on-court play.

I guess I don't understand why we should hold Pippen in a higher light if say Kukoc plays better than he did. One argument could be made that Pippen had a chance to increase his play to another level against the Pacers and Houston but I guess I don't see that happening [though it could].

I value results and I also make an attempt to correlate the results to a player. For example, I don't hold Michael Jordan getting swept in the 1st round of 1987 against him while I also don't prop up David West's career because he won two rings with the Warriors in 2017 and 2018.

I think he very likely would have beaten Pacers in both 94 and 00. The finals MVP in either year would be far from a given however I agree with that.


I think they would have been favorites in both series.

People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.


Huh...I do enjoy theory and philosophy [it was my favorite class in High School and led me to take a handful of classes in college pertaining to the subject, which consequently helped me in all of my other classes :wink: ].

Again, I value what a player does and how he affects a team. Not really theory or philosophy but to each their own.

Huh?


You said in an alternate reality where Pippen is viewed as an A+ Alpha. This means he would have had to have changes to his game and demeanor, hence the joke about combining with Jordan [who is an A+ Alpha].
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#7 » by LA Bird » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:10 am

John Havlicek is basically this alternative universe Pippen with 2 rings and 1 FMVP on top of the 6 championships he won next to Russell and it doesn't seem like he gets much of a career boost out of those later team achievements. Even if we play the if game and credit the 00 Blazers with beating the Lakers, Pippen was closer to an Iguodala at that stage than an elite "alpha". The only time Pippen really proved himself as a leader on a top team without Jordan was in 94 and they weren't all that close to winning the title even if they had beaten the Knicks.

Also, "Scottie Pippen is usually listed somewhere between the top 35-50 all time" is simply not true. He is more often ranked in the top 30 than outside of it.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#8 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:45 am

GhosDini wrote:Right now Scottie Pippen is usually listed somewhere between the top 35-50 all time....



The rest is a fun hypothetical, but where exactly is he "usually" listed thus?

Here is his rank according to this forum that last four times the top 100 project was done:
2008- 26th
2011 - 25th
2014- 27th
2017 - 30th

Some other sources (not that I particularly value any of the following as reliable sources, but they are perhaps more "mainstream"):
Bill Simmons (in 2010): 24th
Slam Magazine (in 2011): 27th
InsideHoops forum (in 2012): 26th
Bleacher Report (in 2015): 25th
Bleacher Report (in 2019): 25th
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#9 » by ThaRegul8r » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:13 am

LA Bird wrote:John Havlicek is basically this alternative universe Pippen with 2 rings and 1 FMVP on top of the 6 championships he won next to Russell and it doesn't seem like he gets much of a career boost out of those later team achievements.


That's because the typical basketball fan throws out anything that happened before the merger/before they started watching basketball.

Havlicek also doesn't seem to get any boost out of being 8-0 in the Finals, despite the fact that being undefeated in the Finals is typically bandied about as a big deal on the internet. :dontknow:
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:21 am

Yeah, I don't understand the love of this hypothetical Pippen when we have arguably better player in Havlicek who had way more success than Pippen and he's not beloved or argued as top 20 player.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#11 » by RCM88x » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:55 pm

70sFan wrote:Yeah, I don't understand the love of this hypothetical Pippen when we have arguably better player in Havlicek who had way more success than Pippen and he's not beloved or argued as top 20 player.


Because he's a white guy who play for the Celtics in the 60s and 70s. And he was only the 1A star in the 70s which is an era most people don't really care about. And in the 60s the team had a ton of talent outside of him so people don't really give him any credit it for the team success as most of the credit goes to Russell. He also doesn't have any records or notable individual accolades that cause his name to be brought up in casual conversations.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:49 pm

RCM88x wrote:
70sFan wrote:Yeah, I don't understand the love of this hypothetical Pippen when we have arguably better player in Havlicek who had way more success than Pippen and he's not beloved or argued as top 20 player.


Because he's a white guy who play for the Celtics in the 60s and 70s. And he was only the 1A star in the 70s which is an era most people don't really care about. And in the 60s the team had a ton of talent outside of him so people don't really give him any credit it for the team success as most of the credit goes to Russell. He also doesn't have any records or notable individual accolades that cause his name to be brought up in casual conversations.

Sure but Pippen would be the same, except that he played in more popular era.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:30 pm

70sFan wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
70sFan wrote:Yeah, I don't understand the love of this hypothetical Pippen when we have arguably better player in Havlicek who had way more success than Pippen and he's not beloved or argued as top 20 player.


Because he's a white guy who play for the Celtics in the 60s and 70s. And he was only the 1A star in the 70s which is an era most people don't really care about. And in the 60s the team had a ton of talent outside of him so people don't really give him any credit it for the team success as most of the credit goes to Russell. He also doesn't have any records or notable individual accolades that cause his name to be brought up in casual conversations.

Sure but Pippen would be the same, except that he played in more popular era.


Well, some might say a more competitive era, which bears relevance.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#14 » by No-more-rings » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:39 pm

These "what if player x won more" hypothetical can be applied to pretty much everyone. I don't see the point in them unless something about their own level of play was drastically different.

My issues with this particular case are:

1. Assuming that the 94 Bulls would've gone on to beat 2 more quality opponents after the Knicks is a really big if. It's almost like saying the 09 Celtics could've won it all if they beat Orlando in that game 7. Matchups and things like playing above your head play a role sometimes. I don't think the Bulls front line would've done good enough against Hakeem to beat them. You also can't just assume that the bulls would've played with the same urgency in that game 6 if not for that "blown call". Too many variables.

2. Pippen was not the best player on the 2000 Blazers anyway, so i don't know how much that boosts his legacy.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#15 » by 70sFan » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:59 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Because he's a white guy who play for the Celtics in the 60s and 70s. And he was only the 1A star in the 70s which is an era most people don't really care about. And in the 60s the team had a ton of talent outside of him so people don't really give him any credit it for the team success as most of the credit goes to Russell. He also doesn't have any records or notable individual accolades that cause his name to be brought up in casual conversations.

Sure but Pippen would be the same, except that he played in more popular era.


Well, some might say a more competitive era, which bears relevance.


Sure, but I'm not sure how much you can give additional credit for era strength. Havlicek has longer prime and relevant career, he also played in more eras than just early expansion 70s. Besides, middle 1990s isn't the strongest era in history either - it's period hurt by expansion. I think that the difference between 1972 and 1995 is smaller than between 1995 and 2019.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#16 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 pm

I think Scottie Pippen was pretty freaking great in the actual universe in which he existed. Rather than creating a fictional scenario to bump his stock, I'd prefer you made a case on his actual career--which is plenty compelling on it's own. Yes, there will always be Jordan guys who feel like they must diminish Pip to elevate Mike, but that's just noise that should be ignored.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#17 » by Owly » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:23 pm

GhosDini wrote:Hypothetical about how close Scottie Pippen was to winning two more titles


GhosDini wrote:
The people who LOVE accolades would vault him up the pole like a stripper.

If his play changes then I view him differently, but then again I would view any player different if their play changed; regardless of outcome.


People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.

Struggling with a dichotomy here.

On the one Pippen was apparently close to these additional titles and this is meant to mean something and be worth consideration.

On the other you advocate for valuing "achievement and accomplishment" and "theory and philosophy" is something to be diminished and discarded. Discussing theoretical Pippen (superficial though the thinking may be, as, as noted, the level of play involved in this change isn't discussed) can be of no significance those who would diminish theory.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#18 » by GhosDini » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:57 pm

Owly wrote:
GhosDini wrote:Hypothetical about how close Scottie Pippen was to winning two more titles


GhosDini wrote:
The people who LOVE accolades would vault him up the pole like a stripper.

If his play changes then I view him differently, but then again I would view any player different if their play changed; regardless of outcome.


People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.

Struggling with a dichotomy here.

On the one Pippen was apparently close to these additional titles and this is meant to mean something and be worth consideration.

On the other you advocate for valuing "achievement and accomplishment" and "theory and philosophy" is something to be diminished and discarded. Discussing theoretical Pippen (superficial though the thinking may be, as, as noted, the level of play involved in this change isn't discussed) can be of no significance those who would diminish theory.


Strawman. I never said that.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#19 » by Colbinii » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:09 pm

GhosDini wrote:
Owly wrote:
GhosDini wrote:Hypothetical about how close Scottie Pippen was to winning two more titles


GhosDini wrote:
People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.

Struggling with a dichotomy here.

On the one Pippen was apparently close to these additional titles and this is meant to mean something and be worth consideration.

On the other you advocate for valuing "achievement and accomplishment" and "theory and philosophy" is something to be diminished and discarded. Discussing theoretical Pippen (superficial though the thinking may be, as, as noted, the level of play involved in this change isn't discussed) can be of no significance those who would diminish theory.


Strawman. I never said that.


No, but you implied it.

People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.
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Re: Alternative Universe: Scottie Pippen 

Post#20 » by Owly » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:18 pm

GhosDini wrote:
Owly wrote:
GhosDini wrote:Hypothetical about how close Scottie Pippen was to winning two more titles


GhosDini wrote:

People who value achievement and accomplishment would indeed reward Scottie Pippen by moving him up several spots on their all time lists. Those who live in the world of theory and philosophy would probably still have him behind CP3.

Struggling with a dichotomy here.

On the one Pippen was apparently close to these additional titles and this is meant to mean something and be worth consideration.

On the other you advocate for valuing "achievement and accomplishment" and "theory and philosophy" is something to be diminished and discarded. Discussing theoretical Pippen (superficial though the thinking may be, as, as noted, the level of play involved in this change isn't discussed) can be of no significance those who would diminish theory.


Strawman. I never said that.

So that wasn't the implication in the "theory and philosophy" quote? Okay so ...

you posit

GhosDini wrote:Imagine how different Scottie Pippen would be viewed as an all time great.

The response is
Colbinii wrote:
The people who LOVE accolades would vault him up the pole like a stripper.

If his play changes then I view him differently, but then again I would view any player different if their play changed; regardless of outcome.

Your response is the above and the purpose wasn't (as I had interpreted) to support crudely measured "achievement and accomplishment" at a team level but in fact to agree that the player's performance is what matters, to promote more serious meta-cognition about player evaluation and the "theory and philosophy" approach that would lead to better players like Chris Paul ranking above him. That wasn't how it appeared, but it would make for a more viable position, both in terms internal consistency if wishing to entertain (hopefully in future more considered) hypotheticals and providing, IMO, a better end result.

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