Kobe Bryant Athleticism

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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#41 » by MrBigShot » Tue Feb 4, 2020 3:51 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
MrBigShot wrote:Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.


Is there any scientific basis at all for what you’re saying here? You seriously don’t think there is a strong genetic component to strength and the ability to put on muscle? I can point to dozens of studies that say the opposite.

One major study, for example, showed that muscle gain can differ between individuals but as much as 58% with the exact same diet and training regimen for complete beginners. The overall genetic component for strength reading is believed to be around 50% heritable. Hair color is 61% heritable and eye color is 80% heritable, for reference.


There is absolutely a genetic basis for it, but you're extrapolating what I said and vastly misrepresenting my point. Any player being able to acquire strength and strength/muscle having genetic components are not mutually exclusive things. We are discussing professional athletes with access to the absolute best equipment, trainers, and dietitians. Athletes that are required to do A LOT of running and start stop + change of direction movements that will cause wear and tear over time, so there is a pretty stark disparity between how much muscle they put on relative to how much they could potentially put on.

Give a relatively young average man access to the same resources an NBA player has and they would put on a significant muscle and become pretty strong relative to others with their physical profile. The genetic component will influence how fast they can do so and what their max potential is naturally, but the point remains. Strength & muscle are a matter of progressively overloading muscles and diet. On the other hand kind of explosion, speed, quickness and leaping ability that the absolute best nba players have...an average joe just wont be able to get close to that with or without professional resources. This is why we see excellent athletes who put on muscle and become stronger, but not really strong average athletes who become excellent athletes. Stanley Johnson is a great example of that; immensely strong player that nobody would consider to be a great athlete.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#42 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 4, 2020 4:30 pm

MrBigShot wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
MrBigShot wrote:Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.


Is there any scientific basis at all for what you’re saying here? You seriously don’t think there is a strong genetic component to strength and the ability to put on muscle? I can point to dozens of studies that say the opposite.

One major study, for example, showed that muscle gain can differ between individuals but as much as 58% with the exact same diet and training regimen for complete beginners. The overall genetic component for strength reading is believed to be around 50% heritable. Hair color is 61% heritable and eye color is 80% heritable, for reference.


There is absolutely a genetic basis for it, but you're extrapolating what I said and vastly misrepresenting my point. Any player being able to acquire strength and strength/muscle having genetic components are not mutually exclusive things. We are discussing professional athletes with access to the absolute best equipment, trainers, and dietitians. Athletes that are required to do A LOT of running and start stop + change of direction movements that will cause wear and tear over time, so there is a pretty stark disparity between how much muscle they put on relative to how much they could potentially put on.

Give a relatively young average man access to the same resources an NBA player has and they would put on a significant muscle and become pretty strong relative to others with their physical profile. The genetic component will influence how fast they can do so and what their max potential is naturally, but the point remains. Strength & muscle are a matter of progressively overloading muscles and diet. On the other hand kind of explosion, speed, quickness and leaping ability that the absolute best nba players have...an average joe just wont be able to get close to that with or without professional resources. This is why we see excellent athletes who put on muscle and become stronger, but not really strong average athletes who become excellent athletes. Stanley Johnson is a great example of that; immensely strong player that nobody would consider to be a great athlete.


But Butler is not an average athlete, he is an excellent overall athlete. His max vert as a rookie was higher than Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Derrick Rose, and Russell Westbrook. He is one of the most explosive two-foot leapers in NBA history.

And explosiveness absolutely can be trained. Derrick Rose improves his vertical leap by 5 inches between his rookie year and his ACL season. Your average Joe will have a far easier time getting big rather than improving his max vert, but why should we assume the same holds for the 99.999th percentile of the population? Especially as being able to jump really high is already a prerequisite for making the NBA.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#43 » by LakerLegend » Tue Feb 4, 2020 5:14 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
SeniorWalker wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.

No way Butler compares to either. Been watching Butler most of his career. In terms of strength at the 2 hes elite, but his quickness and bounce are quite average. Vince is arguably the best leaping 2 we've ever seen. Wade is like 2 tiers quicker than Butler while also being very strong himself. Tmac also is a better leaper, a tad quicker and is just longer.

Butler is a workhorse but not what I'd consider a special talent at the 2 or 3.


How is Butler‘s bounce average? He pretty frequently got his head at the rim in his Bulls days and dunks about as often as Vince did.

Butler tested a 39 inch vert at the combine (Derrick Rose’s was 37 and Wade‘s was 35, Westbrook 36.5, Kobe 38, Vince 43, Steph 35.5, Harden 32) and here he is doing a 50 inch box jump:


We have no official recorded measurement for
Kobe’s vertical, and if combine ones did emerge they would have been recorded when he was 17.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#44 » by Arman_tanzarian » Tue Feb 4, 2020 7:13 pm

Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.


Better body control and more flexible than all of them. Wade was more explosive end to end but was a worse leaper. VC was more powerful and a better leaper.

T-Mac had the size.

All these guys are very comparable. The difference is with guys like MJ and Bron
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#45 » by wutevahung » Tue Feb 4, 2020 11:51 pm

LakerLegend wrote:
MrBigShot wrote:Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.


I don't factor LeBron into these debates anymore as I believe he's been on PED's for most if not all of his career.


JW, how do you think that works? I can see only three ways that LeBron has been on PED for most of not all of his career, but has not been punished by the league and publicized

1. He has found a PED that does not show up when the league does drug testing.
2. NBA does not drug test LeBron so he can be promote the league.
3. Drug Test shows LeBron is using PED, but the league let him go free to promote the league.

but honestly, if you put even 2 minutes of thoughts into each scenario, it falls apart.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#46 » by LakerLegend » Tue Feb 4, 2020 11:56 pm

wutevahung wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
MrBigShot wrote:Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.


I don't factor LeBron into these debates anymore as I believe he's been on PED's for most if not all of his career.


JW, how do you think that works? I can see only three ways that LeBron has been on PED for most of not all of his career, but has not been punished by the league and publicized

1. He has found a PED that does not show up when the league does drug testing.
2. NBA does not drug test LeBron so he can be promote the league.
3. Drug Test shows LeBron is using PED, but the league let him go free to promote the league.

but honestly, if you put even 2 minutes of thoughts into each scenario, it falls apart.


Did Bill Simmons Hint That LeBron James Took A Steroid Vacation?

Simmons met fan backlash when he floated the idea that LeBron wasn’t the “same player” early in the 2015 season. He responded as such:

“Like it was our fault that LeBron was playing below the rim for the first two months and the Cavs were a complete mess. I’m sorry for pointing that out everybody!”

After NBA beat writer Zach Lowe struggled to politely categorize LeBron’s two-week refresher vacation to Miami in January, Simmons pushed his stance once again:

Bill Simmons: Uh…I have a couple titles for that but I’m not gonna say.

Zach Lowe: I’m not going anywhere near where you’re going.

Bill Simmons: I’m not going anywhere either!

He later elaborated, saying:

“LeBron James…looked like he was entering another phase of his career. He’s got a lot of miles on him. Looked different in how he was playing. Went away for two weeks, came back. He’s been lights out. [He] basically has been at 29 [points] a game, 6 [assists] and 6 [rebounds]. Fifty percent shooting. He looks like LeBron again.”


https://uproxx.com/dimemag/did-bill-s...roid-vacation/
http://bluegrasspreps.com/national-b...ns-298941.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...bill_alluding/
https://247sports.com/nba/mavericks/...tion-71485040/


LeBatard: My Guess is LeBron James is ‘Doing Something


http://slicemiami.com/2016/06/08/le-...ron-james-hgh/


LeBron James was in Miami while the Cavaliers played at home Sunday, with team's permission


https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2015/01/lebron_james_miami.html


Here's the story behind the 2-week break that turned LeBron James' season around

Windhorst says that late in 2014, James had been moody and his body wasn't 100%. After suddenly deciding not to play in a game against the Hawks, the Cavs gave him take two weeks off to rest, from which he returned healthy and in a better mood, seemingly revitalized by some midseason trades.

"[James] had sort of just like waved a bit of a white flag there. He just didn't feel like playing. He had never done that ever before. He had always just played through it. And so it was after that game, [the Cavaliers] said, 'Alright, take your two weeks off,' because he had reached a very low point."

Nobody is quite sure why James' two-week break turned around his season. He does seem healthier and more explosive.
If it was just fatigue and simple aches that he was dealing with, then two weeks may have been enough to revitalize him.


https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-2-week-break-turned-his-season-around-2015-4

LeBron James Briefly Went To Miami Before Start Of Finals


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-sp-lebron-james-udonis-haslem-s20180614-story.html


The Only Thing Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman Can Agree On






Simmons: Naive To Think NBA Has No Players On PEDs

During a podcast on Monday, ESPN NBA analyst Bill Simmons suggested that the lessons from baseball's performance enhancing drug problems of the past two decades need to be studied by those involved in basketball.

"The retroactive thing is really funny to me," said Simmons. "It does seem like there is this weird residual guilt, especially with the writers: 'We didn't know. I should have known. How did we not know?'

"Why aren't we asking that now with the other sports? What about basketball? Go on YouTube and watch a basketball game from 1977 and see what the guys look like. You really think there are no PED guys in the NBA right now? You've got to be kidding me.

"It's just funny to me. If we end up repeating this whole cycle with the NBA. Everybody is going to be like, 'How did we not know?' It's the same thing we were going through with baseball in the late nineties."



https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/231496/simmons-naive-to-think-nba-has-no-players-on-peds


Daring to Ask the PED Question


http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question




Adam Silver: NBA is more concerned about HGH use than marijuana


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2014/11/24/adam-silver-nba-is-more-concerned-about-hgh-use-than-marijuana/?utm_term=.9ee7f921c5fc

NBA, NBPA to add HGH testing into anti-drug program


http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/16/nba-and-nbpa-to-introduce-hgh-blood-testing

Why there’s never been a PED scandal in the NBA


https://www.complex.com/sports/2018/01/why-theres-never-been-a-ped-scandal-in-the-nba

Tell me the NBA has no Doping


http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/50443/tell-me-the-nba-has-no-doping

Three NBA Doping Myths


http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/54045/three-nba-doping-myths





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frica
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#47 » by frica » Wed Feb 5, 2020 7:29 am

There's more to athleticism than straight line speed and max verticality.

Carter never had the lateral speed of Kobe Bryant and it showed on defence.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#48 » by Asianiac_24 » Wed Feb 5, 2020 8:04 am

Compared to the ATGs he isn’t that athletic. I’d say T-Mac, VC, Grant Hill, Wade, and the obvious MJ/LeBron are all more athletic than Kobe.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#49 » by Showstopper21 » Wed Feb 5, 2020 3:05 pm

Lol Lebron has definitely been on PEDs for a lot of his career, i’d say at least from 08 on. There’s just too much evidence, and you’d have to be blind to it ignore it. Things he’s been able to do for years and years and without getting hurt isn’t really humanly possible, and i guess we can ignore that Lebron for years now has looked like a 40 or 45 year old man in the face. PEDs definitely age you, look at Hulk Hogan. He was looking like he was about 60 in the face when he was only in his 40s. No that’s not genetics.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#50 » by pancakes3 » Wed Feb 5, 2020 3:53 pm

:/

there was a lot of speculation (quiet understanding) that Karl Malone was on steroids bc it's physically impossible to be that jacked when you're doing as much cardio as required for an NBA season + playoffs
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#51 » by LakerLegend » Wed Feb 5, 2020 6:12 pm

pancakes3 wrote::/

there was a lot of speculation (quiet understanding) that Karl Malone was on steroids bc it's physically impossible to be that jacked when you're doing as much cardio as required for an NBA season + playoffs

Lol, where are u getting this..
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#52 » by LakerLegend » Thu Feb 6, 2020 11:49 pm

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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#53 » by KobesScarf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:14 am

I wouldnt put him in the top 5 most athletic 2 guards

Thompson Drexler MJ Spreewell Carter were all for sure more athletic. Probably Jason Richardson and Wade too. Darrell Griffith is probably about even.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#54 » by KobesScarf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:16 am

LakerLegend wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Not as athletic as Jordan and Lebron, but still one of the most athletic wings of all time


Pelly24 wrote:Kobe is sometimes kinda mislabeled as being just an "above average athlete" but really he's as functionally athletic as any 2Guard ever besides MJ. He literally had the balance, body control and all around dexterity of a 5'11" halfback. Only thing is he was 6'6" lol. Then he also had the first step of an explosive 6'1" point guard and he had a 40 inch vertical and he had unlimited stamina and amazing durability and ability to play through injuries. To me he's unquestionably the second greatest Shooting Guard ever, and maybe the second greatest guard ever when you really come down to it. His athleticism would make him top 5 most athletic in the game today.


The biggest physical difference between Kobe and Jordan is the hand size, which affects the way you do things on the court in a lot of ways.

As far as pure athleticism there isn't a significant difference between them other than trade-offs like Jordan being stronger and Kobe being more flexible(Phil's words)
MJ is a much better leaper and much quicker

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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#55 » by LakerLegend » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:34 am

KobesScarf wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Not as athletic as Jordan and Lebron, but still one of the most athletic wings of all time


Pelly24 wrote:Kobe is sometimes kinda mislabeled as being just an "above average athlete" but really he's as functionally athletic as any 2Guard ever besides MJ. He literally had the balance, body control and all around dexterity of a 5'11" halfback. Only thing is he was 6'6" lol. Then he also had the first step of an explosive 6'1" point guard and he had a 40 inch vertical and he had unlimited stamina and amazing durability and ability to play through injuries. To me he's unquestionably the second greatest Shooting Guard ever, and maybe the second greatest guard ever when you really come down to it. His athleticism would make him top 5 most athletic in the game today.


The biggest physical difference between Kobe and Jordan is the hand size, which affects the way you do things on the court in a lot of ways.

As far as pure athleticism there isn't a significant difference between them other than trade-offs like Jordan being stronger and Kobe being more flexible(Phil's words)
MJ is a much better leaper and much quicker

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He's not, you're just used to seeing him in highlights and not in real time.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#56 » by KobesScarf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:56 am

LakerLegend wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:


The biggest physical difference between Kobe and Jordan is the hand size, which affects the way you do things on the court in a lot of ways.

As far as pure athleticism there isn't a significant difference between them other than trade-offs like Jordan being stronger and Kobe being more flexible(Phil's words)
MJ is a much better leaper and much quicker

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He's not, you're just used to seeing him in highlights and not in real time.
I have watched >50 full MJ era Bulls games his quickness and leaping ability is only matched by Derrick Rose. No one is a bigger Kobe fan than me but he wasnt an elite athlete.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#57 » by LakerLegend » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:08 am

KobesScarf wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:MJ is a much better leaper and much quicker

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He's not, you're just used to seeing him in highlights and not in real time.
I have watched >50 full MJ era Bulls games his quickness and leaping ability is only matched by Derrick Rose. No one is a bigger Kobe fan than me but he wasnt an elite athlete.


I saw Jordan's career.

As for Kobe, no one could do these things if they weren't an elite athlete, in fact it's absurd for you to say that:



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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#58 » by LakerLegend » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:12 am

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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#59 » by KobesScarf » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:10 am

LakerLegend wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
He's not, you're just used to seeing him in highlights and not in real time.
I have watched >50 full MJ era Bulls games his quickness and leaping ability is only matched by Derrick Rose. No one is a bigger Kobe fan than me but he wasnt an elite athlete.


I saw Jordan's career.

As for Kobe, no one could do these things if they weren't an elite athlete, in fact it's absurd for you to say that:



Let me make it clear by elite I don't mean compared to every other 2 guard thats ever played. I mean the elite among the elite

Theres 7 guys I would put above Kobe athletically: in no order MJ Drexler Vince Wade Thompson J-rich and Sprewell
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#60 » by LakerLegend » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:59 am

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