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NO-KG-AI wrote:

Sign5 wrote:Wade may not have been as athletic as Rose or Westbrook but he used his athleticism to the max. A guy that was 6'4 but was routinely top 5 in total dunks each year of his prime (behind only top centers and Bron)

He was quicker, stronger and more explosive than Kobe. I'd say he had more body control too but that's arguable. Kobe definitely had more bounce (which to me was his only clear advantage athletically).

Again neither were athletic FREAKS, just very elite athletes.

Wade’s body strength made him way better at getting inside and finishing there than Rose or Westbrook. Their speed didn’t give them any advantages over Wade that were actually tangible.

I think DWade was at least as fast and quick as either of them. Wade was EXPLOSIVE

NO-KG-AI wrote:

Sign5 wrote:Wade may not have been as athletic as Rose or Westbrook but he used his athleticism to the max. A guy that was 6'4 but was routinely top 5 in total dunks each year of his prime (behind only top centers and Bron)

He was quicker, stronger and more explosive than Kobe. I'd say he had more body control too but that's arguable. Kobe definitely had more bounce (which to me was his only clear advantage athletically).

Again neither were athletic FREAKS, just very elite athletes.

Wade’s body strength made him way better at getting inside and finishing there than Rose or Westbrook. Their speed didn’t give them any advantages over Wade that were actually tangible.

I think DWade was at least as fast and quick as either of them. Wade was EXPLOSIVE

Pelly24 wrote:

NO-KG-AI wrote:

Sign5 wrote:Wade may not have been as athletic as Rose or Westbrook but he used his athleticism to the max. A guy that was 6'4 but was routinely top 5 in total dunks each year of his prime (behind only top centers and Bron)

He was quicker, stronger and more explosive than Kobe. I'd say he had more body control too but that's arguable. Kobe definitely had more bounce (which to me was his only clear advantage athletically).

Again neither were athletic FREAKS, just very elite athletes.

Wade’s body strength made him way better at getting inside and finishing there than Rose or Westbrook. Their speed didn’t give them any advantages over Wade that were actually tangible.

I think DWade was at least as fast and quick as either of them. Wade was EXPLOSIVE

I don't disagree. My point was, if there wa any difference in speed, it was negligible to the point that it didn't effect their game. Wade was both the most effective at getting to, and finishing at the rim by a large margin IMO.

KobesScarf wrote:Let me make it clear by elite I don't mean compared to every other 2 guard thats ever played. I mean the elite among the elite

Theres 7 guys I would put above Kobe athletically: in no order MJ Drexler Vince Wade Thompson J-rich and Sprewell

I think its safe to add Zach Lavine too so that puts Kobe as the 9th most athletic SG

Kobe was elite athletically. In his Frobe days, he blew by a lot of defenders. Whether in half court or transition. He may not have the vertical of VC or the open court speed of LeBron, but he was still elite and just a notch below. He had GOAT level body control. I don’t think anybody in the history of the NBA had clearly superior body control, Kobe is in the discussion with MJ for body control and anybody else. Also Kobe had a very quick first step out of the triple threat and a great two footed leaper. His two-footed leaping ability is the reason why he was able to pull off so many contested face up and fade-away jumpers without getting blocked. He was one of the best players ever working out of the triple threat because of his functional athleticism on the first step or two footed leaping to go along with his high skill level

Checkout the layup Kobe hits at 25 seconds, well past his athletic prime.

Explosiveness before the knee injuries and adding too much muscle mass(2003/2005 seasons). Carter and T-Mac were never quite as as explosive as young Kobe in terms of first step and quickness.

Dr Spaceman wrote:

Dr Positivity wrote:

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.

I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.

Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.

When Jimmy first got minutes in Chicago as a rookie I thought he was a PF when I saw him defend that massive version of LeBron with minimal help defense.

I was shocked to see him listed as a SG.

Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.

He was a much better athlete than Wade.

In addition to an elite first step and a 40-inch vert, Kobe had a few rare, MJ-esque qualities that melded perfectly with his skills.

I saw Steve Nash talking about athleticism during a few interviews earlier this year. He was talking about how he was surprised by Kyrie's speed, etc. but he was just as, if not more impressed with his reflexes, agility and mobility, ability to move. I immediately thought about Kobe. Kobe was insanely mobile. He could position his body in all sorts of ways reflexively to get shots off or make defensive plays. This is where you see those crazy fading jumpers, reverse layups and even those really stylish dunks. That same mobility let him explode and slither into gaps in the defense to create his own shot at awkward angles. He could bend his feet in very awkward positions to take off at random angles. He could change directions mid stride as if he were 6'1." He moved like a ballerina. This blended with his skill, but his insane coordination and mobility is why could pull off those sleek moves with the ball. I don't think I could see Wiggins pull it off in large part because of skill, but I also don't see the flexibility and overall agility and control. Kobe's reflexes along with his length and flexibility and stamina helped him be a great defender. Like MJ, Kobe basically had the agility and mobility and body control of an explosive, agile point guard, but he was 6'5." To date, I'm not sure I've seen another shooting guard with these qualities. I think this, in part, accounts for the aesthetic appeal of people like MJ and Kobe as well. They're more subtle elements that people don't notice, and that's why sometimes people think like, Gerald Green was more athletic than Kobe.

Look at this layup at 1:27. Look how drastically and how quickly he adjusts his body to get this layup off and yet he somehow has the touch/balance/core strength to complete the shot all in one motion. That is super rare, and for people over 6'4," Kobe and MJ are the only one I've seen approach this level of body control, reflexes and outright fluidity.




I think DWade is maybe a slightly more impressive athlete because of the raw force he could exert, but Kobe was a better leaper and even for DWade's great body control, Kobe was on another level in that regard. So yeah.

Eh when you look at all the components of athleticism I'd put his athletic prime over Drexler and Wade. Kobe was more acrobatic than them.

Dr Positivity wrote:

Dr Spaceman wrote:

Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.

Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.

I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.

Vince was one of NBA's best shooters, why shouldn't he play to his strength?

People even called Dirk for being "soft" and "not having heart" because he was settling for jumpers.

Neither Vince or Dirk would play in NBA for 20+ NBA seasons if they couldn't shoot.

Kobe had upper tier athleticism. A couple things hold him off from being ranked among the elite in NBA history however.

His vert was decent but you rarely saw his head at rim level and maybe the biggest thing which Kobe himself has talked about, is his hands were not very large so he couldn't palm the ball as easily as some others which limits some elements of what you can do.

Third best perimeter athlete of all time behind Jordan and Bron.

Jiminy Glick wrote:Eh when you look at all the components of athleticism I'd put his athletic prime over Drexler and Wade. Kobe was more acrobatic than them.

You say that as if all things are equal in other aspects of athleticism.

Drexler’s top speed, first step, leaping and strength all top Kobe’s.

Drexler was an all-world athlete. The only reason he never peaked higher than Kobe is because his fine motor skills weren’t up to par.

Drexler scored at a high level without a good handle for over a decade. His cut, catch and finish and transition game was just that deadly.

Drexler’s offensive rebounding ability was that of Anthony Davis. Probably higher.

I don’t see Kobe’s athleticism being close to as revered as it’s getting ITT. Nothing really backs up the idea he could top Butler, Drexler or Wade athletically.

He just had better fine motor skills than any of them to complement what athleticism he did have.

ShotCreator wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:Eh when you look at all the components of athleticism I'd put his athletic prime over Drexler and Wade. Kobe was more acrobatic than them.

You say that as if all things are equal in other aspects of athleticism.

Drexler’s top speed, first step, leaping and strength all top Kobe’s.

Drexler was an all-world athlete. The only reason he never peaked higher than Kobe is because his fine motor skills weren’t up to par.

Drexler scored at a high level without a good handle for over a decade. His cut, catch and finish and transition game was just that deadly.

Drexler’s offensive rebounding ability was that of Anthony Davis. Probably higher.

I don’t see Kobe’s athleticism being close to as revered as it’s getting ITT. Nothing really backs up the idea he could top Butler, Drexler or Wade athletically.

He just had better fine motor skills than any of them to complement what athleticism he did have.

I think the motor skills are a part of the athleticism, though, especially if it gives you an edge. That's what gives MJ an athletic edge over people like peak Westbrook.

As far as nothing backing up the idea that he could top those guys, I think Kobe was measured with an official vertical of 38 inches when he was 17 coming out of high school. Butler's was 39 inches after a few years in college. DWade's vertical was 35 inches. Kobe has more poster dunks than both of these guys combined. He also had ridiculous reverse dunks on the baseline. He dunked on Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan and Yao Ming. His dunks easily rival or even exceed Drexler's.

Drexler was fast, but Kobe had a great firs step also. His ability to change directions, as well as his lateral quickness and body control were all superior. Kobe was also an elite defender, and those attributes and his reflexes only helped that.

So idk. Kobe jumped as high or higher than Jimmy Butler, and definitely higher than DWade, and he had way more impressive posters/dunks than either of them. Kobe wasn't as strong as Butler but he was way more agile and definitely had a quicker first step.

Kobe's bounce and quickness are without a doubt elite. His refined athleticism—changing directions, balance, coordination, reflexes—were GOAT levels, and that's what helped give him such an edge.

Pelly24 wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:Eh when you look at all the components of athleticism I'd put his athletic prime over Drexler and Wade. Kobe was more acrobatic than them.

You say that as if all things are equal in other aspects of athleticism.

Drexler’s top speed, first step, leaping and strength all top Kobe’s.

Drexler was an all-world athlete. The only reason he never peaked higher than Kobe is because his fine motor skills weren’t up to par.

Drexler scored at a high level without a good handle for over a decade. His cut, catch and finish and transition game was just that deadly.

Drexler’s offensive rebounding ability was that of Anthony Davis. Probably higher.

I don’t see Kobe’s athleticism being close to as revered as it’s getting ITT. Nothing really backs up the idea he could top Butler, Drexler or Wade athletically.

He just had better fine motor skills than any of them to complement what athleticism he did have.

I think the motor skills are a part of the athleticism, though, especially if it gives you an edge. That's what gives MJ an athletic edge over people like peak Westbrook.

As far as nothing backing up the idea that he could top those guys, I think Kobe was measured with an official vertical of 38 inches when he was 17 coming out of high school. Butler's was 39 inches after a few years in college. DWade's vertical was 35 inches. Kobe has more poster dunks than both of these guys combined. He also had ridiculous reverse dunks on the baseline. He dunked on Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan and Yao Ming. His dunks easily rival or even exceed Drexler's.

Drexler was fast, but Kobe had a great firs step also. His ability to change directions, as well as his lateral quickness and body control were all superior. Kobe was also an elite defender, and those attributes and his reflexes only helped that.

So idk. Kobe jumped as high or higher than Jimmy Butler, and definitely higher than DWade, and he had way more impressive posters/dunks than either of them. Kobe wasn't as strong as Butler but he was way more agile and definitely had a quicker first step.

Kobe's bounce and quickness are without a doubt elite. His refined athleticism—changing directions, balance, coordination, reflexes—were GOAT levels, and that's what helped give him such an edge.

I don’t see how anyone can look at Jimmy Butler and conclude he’s more impressive athletically than Kobe Bryant.

I can see an argument for Clyde, he’s definitely more impressive in an open court setting. But for all useful basketball functions, it’s clearly Kobe.