2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1101 » by ardee » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:20 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
ardee wrote:Still not 100% sure on my top 5.

1. LeBron James
2. Anthony Davis
3. Kawhi Leonard

Is the top 3 for sure.

Jokic, Harden, Doncic and Giannis will vie for the next two spots. Atm hesitantly I would say Jokic 4 and Giannis 5 but I'll probably not decide my final vote until I actually vote.


Can you explain Leonard at 3? No way I can put him ahead of LeBron, AD, Jokic and Harden. If you want to coast during the RS you better deliver during the PS and he didn't deliver.


Not really sure how one can say he didn't deliver in the PS? He was awful in that last game yes but he was a beast until then. Until that game he was at 29/10/6 on 61% TS. Clearly he was worse against Denver than Dallas and he was a level below 2019 but it's hard to call the PS an actual negative for his season resume. Pandemic P was awful and Kawhi had even more of a load to carry.

I can also get behind Jokic over him now that I think about it, still would take him over Harden/Giannis imo (especially Giannis who actually disappointed in the Playoffs).
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1102 » by ardee » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:26 pm

Yeah tbh I am not seeing Giannis top 5, which is kind of crazy. But the more I think about it, Dirk in 2007 was barely top 5 and this is a far more loaded year.

I'll probably go:

1. LeBron
2. AD
3. Jokic
4. Kawhi
5. Harden

Numbers aside, Jokic/Kawhi/Harden prove you can run a successful offense through them in the PS against tough opponents, and Giannis simply does not give you that option. Sort of like KG in a lot of ways but without the other things that KG brings.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1103 » by No-more-rings » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:32 pm

I'm thinking this top 5 for mine, but can be swayed otherwise.

1. Lebron
2. Harden
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Kawhi

Harden over Davis will probably draw some "WTF?"s from a lot of people, but I'm ready to defend it.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1104 » by freethedevil » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:34 pm

No-more-rings wrote:I'm thinking this top 5 for mine, but can be swayed otherwise.

1. Lebron
2. Harden
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Kawhi

Harden over Davis will probably draw some "WTF?"s from a lot of people, but I'm ready to defend it.

i assume you had harden over durant in 2018?

Given that davis is literally just durant with less help, defense, and passing?
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1105 » by No-more-rings » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:44 pm

freethedevil wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:I'm thinking this top 5 for mine, but can be swayed otherwise.

1. Lebron
2. Harden
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Kawhi

Harden over Davis will probably draw some "WTF?"s from a lot of people, but I'm ready to defend it.

i assume you had harden over durant in 2018?

Given that davis is literally just durant with less help, defense, and passing?

I did have Harden over Durant yes.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1106 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:04 pm

I've added the names to the list of people who asked for a vote. If you've been participating this year or you have a history of participating in the POY, please PM me to request a vote.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1107 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:55 pm

Giannis out of the top 5 feels like a significant overreaction considering he had clearly the best RS by no small distance. Surprised to see so many posters going there. He's getting a ton of blame for poor roster construction. He didn't choose to pay Bledsoe and not Brogdon and that decision alone cost them at least a round and maybe more.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1108 » by ShotCreator » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:15 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Giannis out of the top 5 feels like a significant overreaction considering he had clearly the best RS by no small distance. Surprised to see so many posters going there. He's getting a ton of blame for poor roster construction. He didn't choose to pay Bledsoe and not Brogdon and that decision alone cost them at least a round and maybe more.

It’ll be rightfully seen as ludicrous in maybe just a year when he goes to Dallas and ends the whole concept of winning for the rest of the NBA.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1109 » by Heej » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:34 am

This is what I'm gonna do then.

POY
LeBron
AD
Jokic
Giannis
Harden

Bron for body of work in the season. AD was better in the playoffs partially due to an outlier shooting strench. ADs defense meant more than Brons in the Finals but there are certain intangible factors that make LeBron a better player on and off the court as a leader. Jokic for putting the league on notice on a potential paradigm shift coming their way. Giannis was still great throughout, and he was ballin in that last game before he injured himself. I think we were robbed of a potential all time just Hulk performance from him. Harden most destructive offensive player. Was the hardest player to contain vs Lakers

OPOY
Harden. You have to sell out to stop him only thing that held him back were teammates.
LeBron. Maestro, reliable shooting buoyed his offense this year.
Jokic. Playoff matchup nightmare. Harder to gameplan against vs Luka. Forces you to play big and turn it into a slugfest. No one else in the league completely negates the smallball lineup you spend the whole season thinking is your Ace in the hole.

DPOY
AD
Giannis
Gobert

I'd rather have Isaac as a defenderthan almost all these guys going forward but this one should be body of work. AD singlehandedly wreaked havoc on an elite offense, Giannis was dominant throughout the year, Rudy Gobert is the paragon of his archetype and this is proof that he's not optimal for the emerging metagame cuz if Isaac was playing he wouldn't have made my cut

ROY
Ja
Zion
Herro

Even though I think he's overrated I think I gotta give him some love for ballin in his first playoff. Ja produced the most value, Zion is the best player.

MIP
Luka, obviously in my book
Jamaal Murray, superstar playoff run
Brandon Ingram all star

Honorable mention Devonte Graham, but scaling up is soooo much harder. Who cares if it's expected for high pedigree picks that's the point.

6MOY
Caruso
Schroeder
Michael Porter Jr

Is it a homer pick? Idk I think from start to finish Caruso got it after getting that Manu start in Game 6. That just shows how important he was to the team that won it all. At the end of the day he was THE 6th man. I'll give the last 2 more credit for playoffs

COY
Spoelstra
Nurse
Vogel

Spo and Nurse are top 2 obviously right now. Stevens disappointed me so out of respect to Pop and Carlisle they're the top 4 current Rushmore in terms of 'goodness' with some allowance for Steve Kerr right up there. Bud and Stevens stock dropped for me. But I had to give Frank Vogel his due for a rather good on and off the court job taking that team all the way. His EQ is higher than his IQ and you need that with starpower.

EOY

Pat Riley. GODFATHERRRRRRRRR big boss big balls moves onlyyyy
David Griffin. Good return I like the setup
Sam Presti. Anotha one.

Honorable mention Rob Pelinka. I didn't wanna Lakers bias it I think he actually added positive value to the position. He didn't just 'not f*** it up' he actually improved the Lakers' championship odds with his decision making

I'll appreciate any feedback to make the best vote. Or pointing out any hypocrisy or double standards lmaok
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1110 » by No-more-rings » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:36 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Giannis out of the top 5 feels like a significant overreaction considering he had clearly the best RS by no small distance. Surprised to see so many posters going there. He's getting a ton of blame for poor roster construction. He didn't choose to pay Bledsoe and not Brogdon and that decision alone cost them at least a round and maybe more.

Coaching is one factor, but he has his own offensive limitations that were exposed two playoffs in a row. You don't win championships by dominating the regular season.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1111 » by Jordan Syndrome » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:57 pm

Tentative thinking...

POY
LeBron James
Anthony Davis
Nikola Jokic
Jimmy Butler
James Harden

OPOY
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic

DPOY
Anthony Davis
Jimmy Butler
Rudy Gobert

ROY
Ja Morant
Tyler Herro
Darius Bazley

MIP
Duncan Robinson
Brandon Ingram
Dennis Schroder

6MOY
Goran Dragic
Michael Porter Jr
Serge Ibaka
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1112 » by Heej » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:55 pm

Jordan Syndrome wrote:Tentative thinking...

POY
LeBron James
Anthony Davis
Nikola Jokic
Jimmy Butler
James Harden

OPOY
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic

DPOY
Anthony Davis
Jimmy Butler
Rudy Gobert

ROY
Ja Morant
Tyler Herro
Darius Bazley

MIP
Duncan Robinson
Brandon Ingram
Dennis Schroder

6MOY
Goran Dragic
Michael Porter Jr
Serge Ibaka

I wanted to go with Dragic but I figured he wasn't really their 6th man and Spo was playing possum during the regular season. Was Nunn outperforming him in the regular season this making him a real 6th man?

Also, Schroeder at MIP is an unexpected pick. Duncan Robinson's a good call. I might take out Luka for him on my ballot now just to respect the spirit of the award. Why Butler as a DPOY? It felt like Bam was more important to the Heat defense than Butler, no?

Don't take any of this personal, I figure were all posting our ballots in here to put the best vote possible in.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1113 » by Jordan Syndrome » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:05 pm

Heej wrote:
Jordan Syndrome wrote:Tentative thinking...

POY
LeBron James
Anthony Davis
Nikola Jokic
Jimmy Butler
James Harden

OPOY
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic

DPOY
Anthony Davis
Jimmy Butler
Rudy Gobert

ROY
Ja Morant
Tyler Herro
Darius Bazley

MIP
Duncan Robinson
Brandon Ingram
Dennis Schroder

6MOY
Goran Dragic
Michael Porter Jr
Serge Ibaka

I wanted to go with Dragic but I figured he wasn't really their 6th man and Spo was playing possum during the regular season. Was Nunn outperforming him in the regular season this making him a real 6th man?

Also, Schroeder at MIP is an unexpected pick. Duncan Robinson's a good call. I might take out Luka for him on my ballot now just to respect the spirit of the award. Why Butler as a DPOY? It felt like Bam was more important to the Heat defense than Butler, no?

Don't take any of this personal, I figure were all posting our ballots in here to put the best vote possible in.


General thoughts

Schroder: It could be Paul's brilliance and ability to work great with other ball handlers in comparison to Westbrook but Schroder looked under a lot more control this season. Schroder appeared to have more room to work with in part because he wasnt worried about stepping on Westbrook and George's toes.

MIP: I just dont pick young guys who have an upward arc like Luka or Tatum. Duncan is different animal in that he barely played last year and was horrible.

DPOY: Butler is more the leader of the team and sets the tone defensively for them. No issues with picking Bam but I came away far more impresses with Butlers defense against the wings of Boston and LeBron than I did with Bam.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1114 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:21 pm

Voting will begin tomorrow, and folks will have until next Friday night to vote.

Once again, PM me if you're interested in having a vote.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1115 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:43 pm

So here's my thoughts on each award right now.

POY

LeBron will #1, AD will be #2. In some order I'll have Butler/Giannis/Jokic for the least 3 spots.

I think that the argument that Giannis was at #1 after the RS and no one really did enough to make the argument they had an overall more impressive performance as a player makes sense.

I'm really impressed by the entirety of Butler's performance this year and while I have to acknowledge I still see Giannis as the superior player, Butler stepped up repeatedly in a pretty insane manner when his team needed it while Giannis did not. But I also acknowledge that Butler is a player with limitations and the its in part because of those limitations that the Heat play as they do which then left opponents caught a bit off-guard when Butler did a LeBron impression.

I've been a big Jokic supporter for a long time but have always been cautious about potentially overrating him. I think he really showed in this post-season that by and large that, to paraphrase Watchmen, "Jokic's isn't in here with you, you're in here with him." As in, the mismatch goes both ways and he's smarter than you. It has to be acknowledge though that the way Murray stepped up was a big deal, and Jokic's team likely gets upset in the 1st round if Murray simply plays like he'd played in his career prior to the Bubble. I felt like Murray was the most spectacular offensive player in the Bubble, and while Jokic deserves some credit for that due to how his style allows others to blossom, Murray was still something else.

OPOY

I'm thinking LeBron, Luka, Jokic right now.

Luka was the POY through the regular season and did not disappoint in the playoffs, but LeBron did his whole "I've mastered this game" thing enough in the playoffs that I just see Luka as a touch too green to seriously put above him.

I believe I had Jokic 3rd in this award last year too. Close to an OPOY, but hasn't quite gotten there for me yet.

DPOY

I'm thinking AD, Giannis, Gobert.

I'd become something of a skeptic on AD's defense, which was really something because no one was higher than I was on AD's defense coming into the pros. In these playoffs he just felt like a guy who when he was totally locked in on D could do more than anyone else.

Giannis was my DPOY in the RS. While at one point I thought he was going to drop lower than just a spot, by the end of things I really felt like only AD had separated himself from the pack.

I'm becoming more skeptical about Gobert but wasn't comfortable putting anyone else ahead of him.

ROY

I'm thinking Morant, Herro, and Zion. That's really elevating Herro based on the playoffs which seems a bit excessive, but competition was also pretty soft.

MIP

I'm thinking Luka, Duncan, Bam.

Hardest award for me because the criteria is so hard to nail down. Do you include the 2nd year superstar, or no? But when I see people including him, it's hard for me not to go with him. Incidentally I don't feel the same about Young. Yes he improved a lot, but the team is still terrible in part because he's so problematic defensively. I can see the case for him, but I don't feel the same "Well obviously he improved more than everyone else..." thing that I do with Luka.

After that I have the two Heat guys who I think are largely self-explanatory.

I had Ingram higher before the Bubble. Was hoping for more from him.

I think that Booker & Murray were amazing in the Bubble, but I'm not super-comfortable giving such a heavy Bubble focus on this award.

6MOY

I'm thinking Dragic, Ibaka, Hill

To me these are guys who impressed all season and at the very least didn't feel exposed in the playoffs.

Tempted to put Rondo in here, but he really feels like a guy who just showed up for the playoffs.

COY

Spoelstra, Nurse, Vogel

Feeling pretty set here. Spoelstra had a year for the age, Nurse still feels like the guy everyone in the league is chasing. I really can't emphasize enough though that I think Vogel deserves a hell of a lot of credit for what he did this year.

EOY

Thinking Riley, Presti, Connolly.

The Lakers got the best new addition of the year which normally would make Pelinka a major contender, but I credit LeBron and Klutch for this. Laker management deserves credit, to the extent it deserves any, for just getting into bed with LeBron inc and moving past the ridiculousness that was Magic.

Riley feels like the right EOY to me. The Heat this year showcased a ton of good things and had a bunch of dramatic new acquisitions and developed assets.

I don't really want Presti on my ballot because he's doing a teardown. Him doing the teardown makes sense and he's doing it well, but the only reason why he was the one milking others for assets is that they were actually in a position to try for something real and he wasn't. And he wasn't in that position because he blew it with a 3 MVP core. Now, he's the one who built the 3 MVP core so I'm not saying he's awful - I think he's quite good. But if Presti is improving his EOY candidacy by blowing opportunities, I think we have something of a problem.

Still, it's hard to get to excited about anyone else.

Connolly slides in as someone who's just clearly all on the "pro" and no "con". His actual moves in '19-20 are pretty minor, but they were good and everything the Nuggets are basically he built. He's somewhat worth a shout out.

Last note, as I've said before: The Clippers gambled, and as of right now, they didn't win the gamble. Doesn't mean you fire Lawrence Frank as an incompetent, but you don't win awards with gambles you don't win even if the gamble seemed like the best bet at the time. The fact that you can argue he still made the best move for his club at the time doesn't mean it's paid off enough to win an award for it.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1116 » by therealbig3 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:18 pm

Harden was just as good as Kawhi in the PS and had a much better RS. For me, it’s an easy choice.

Last two spots comes down to Butler/Giannis/Harden for me, because the top 3 is clearly LeBron/AD/Jokic imo. Kawhi and Doncic are gonna miss the cut.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1117 » by kayess » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:09 am

Doctor MJ wrote:snip


Where's Harden on OPOY?

I think one thing that's taken for granted is that, IIRC, even when Luka sits, the Mavs had an amazing ORTG. Not to say Luka's not a special, all-time talent on O, of course; just not sure what he did is better than what Harden did.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1118 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:13 am

kayess wrote:I think one thing that's taken for granted is that, IIRC, even when Luka sits, the Mavs had an amazing ORTG. Not to say Luka's not a special, all-time talent on O, of course; just not sure what he did is better than what Harden did.


Everyone talked about Rick Carlisle's influence and the Mavs bench all year. I don't believe that's any kind of secret really. Carlisle was getting great offense out of Dwight Powell, old man Dirk and JJ Barea for years. It's what he does.

Harden is still the better offensive player, but its absurd that in his 2nd year Luka even made that a conversation against of the single greatest offensive forces of all-time.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1119 » by kayess » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:20 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
kayess wrote:I think one thing that's taken for granted is that, IIRC, even when Luka sits, the Mavs had an amazing ORTG. Not to say Luka's not a special, all-time talent on O, of course; just not sure what he did is better than what Harden did.


Everyone talked about Rick Carlisle's influence and the Mavs bench all year. I don't believe that's any kind of secret really. Carlisle was getting great offense out of Dwight Powell, old man Dirk and JJ Barea for years. It's what he does.

Harden is still the better offensive player, but its absurd that in his 2nd year Luka even made that a conversation against of the single greatest offensive forces of all-time.


Oh yeah you don't need to convince me about Luka. I'm all-in on the kid, and will be rooting for him to become the GOAT and surpass Bron/Kareem/Russell/MJ. And btw, when you say "everyone", I don't think that's really true in the broader sense. I think if you ask the average joe about the Mavs they'll 100% think it's the Luka show. Of course RealGM folks know better, though.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#1120 » by Heej » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:16 am

2 questions:

1)How do you guys view MIP? (I think after mulling it over I will replace Murray with Robinson, but I feel like Luka is the Crux of that question)

2)Does anyone else feel weird about voting for Dragic for 6MOTY or am I just weighting the playoff/bubble results too much?

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