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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:24 pm
by Doctor MJ
Texas Chuck wrote:Part of that is Curry's unique skillset, but mostly that's most teams can't afford to have their best player off the ball that much. It just wouldn't make sense to play that way.

I'm much more encouraged by what the Heat did with Duncan Robinson both in terms of how they used him on the court but also the steps they took trying to get him ready to do that. I think that's far more replicable(sp) than anything like Steph and it essentially takes the old Kyle Korver in Atlanta impact and pushes it further.

I mean even other elite shooters like Dirk or Durant or Kawhi are just so much more valuable to their teams on-ball. I think Curry's biggest influence is going to be the changing of geometry by pushing his range out so far beyond the line. We now see Dame and others following suit and their willingness and ability to hit these shots just opens so much up. Heck even KP who wasn't very consistent this year played a notable role in Dallas' league-leading offense because of how far out he took opposing bigs--especially after Powell went down and he played exclusively as a center.


This is true. I suppose the more important point in my book is that every team should be looking to get some guy that they can make use of in an off-ball role like this.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:53 am
by freethedevil
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:


Not directly related but, do you have the updated list for --career-- poy shares?


I've switched machines and can't find the spreadsheet I made.

If someone want's to re-create, this archived version of semi-sentient's old site will give the data from the '50s to '11:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120703030935/http://rpoy.dolem.com/

Grabbing '12 through '19 will take some leg work, but you can find through the stickied links on this board.

So, I'd add the shares there with the more recent poy threads? that seems doable.

I might do it myself if I get the time. :D

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:06 am
by Doctor MJ
freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Not directly related but, do you have the updated list for --career-- poy shares?


I've switched machines and can't find the spreadsheet I made.

If someone want's to re-create, this archived version of semi-sentient's old site will give the data from the '50s to '11:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120703030935/http://rpoy.dolem.com/

Grabbing '12 through '19 will take some leg work, but you can find through the stickied links on this board.

So, I'd add the shares there with the more recent poy threads? that seems doable.

I might do it myself if I get the time. :D


Cool, and actually I was just looking and found some stuff.

Here's one version of the spreadsheet updated through '11:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mbgpas2t3L0iJE8SDIZ1YAVxflKOfu598gOMIgWxmM/edit?usp=sharing

Here's the Award Winner spreadsheet which includes other awards since '14-15. Starting to get interesting to see how that develops.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mbgpas2t3L0iJE8SDIZ1YAVxflKOfu598gOMIgWxmM/edit?usp=sharing

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:50 pm
by Bidofo
Doctor MJ wrote:
Cool, and actually I was just looking and found some stuff.

Here's one version of the spreadsheet updated through '11:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mbgpas2t3L0iJE8SDIZ1YAVxflKOfu598gOMIgWxmM/edit?usp=sharing

Here's the Award Winner spreadsheet which includes other awards since '14-15. Starting to get interesting to see how that develops.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mbgpas2t3L0iJE8SDIZ1YAVxflKOfu598gOMIgWxmM/edit?usp=sharing

I'm afraid it's the same link Doc :D

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:32 am
by Doctor MJ
Bidofo wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Cool, and actually I was just looking and found some stuff.

Here's one version of the spreadsheet updated through '11:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mbgpas2t3L0iJE8SDIZ1YAVxflKOfu598gOMIgWxmM/edit?usp=sharing

Here's the Award Winner spreadsheet which includes other awards since '14-15. Starting to get interesting to see how that develops.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11mbgpas2t3L0iJE8SDIZ1YAVxflKOfu598gOMIgWxmM/edit?usp=sharing

I'm afraid it's the same link Doc :D


Gah! Thanks Bidofo.

Actual Award Winner link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zpJktAaIF8pvMap-LgdfPzZvOcprhEZUNSqAg_Sy-dQ/edit#gid=0

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:57 am
by Doctor MJ
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MBPjmagr91KOtL3f0bz3pqtrgU52si26Fuv0CJZlzLA/edit#gid=0

Voting from last year.

I'll keep looking for more stuff like this.

Also, looking at '15-16, I literally cannot find my vote. Weird.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:30 pm
by Doctor MJ

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 7, 2020 5:18 pm
by HeartBreakKid
This is gonna be a fun year for this project. Given the nature of the league, it might lead to some unorthodox voting.

Can def see who ever wins the championship getting a big asterisk.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 8, 2020 10:23 am
by therealbig3
Man, I love Curry, people seem to forget that I was leading the Curry bandwagon during his 2016 season...but it is what it is, he consistently has issues in the playoffs to the point where he's clearly not the offensive GOAT. LeBron has clearly outperformed him, and I'm much more inclined to give certain older players that we don't have detailed +/- data on the benefit of the doubt over him (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar). And yes, Nash as well, who we do have +/- data for and has done better as an offensive force in the playoffs.

The people that act like it's a sin to view Curry as anything less than the offensive GOAT and nobody else comes close have got to be the most infuriating people to debate with here. Worse than Kobe fans honestly. Because any examination of how his offense falls off in the playoffs just gets reduced to his stat line, and the fact that the Warriors have won a bunch of games and 3 titles with him as the best player. And they totally dismiss just how good Green and Klay are, never mind Kevin Durant.

EDIT: didn't really know where else to post this, I realize this might not be the most relevant place, just had to get my thoughts out there though

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:26 pm
by KTM_2813
therealbig3 wrote:Man, I love Curry, people seem to forget that I was leading the Curry bandwagon during his 2016 season...but it is what it is, he consistently has issues in the playoffs to the point where he's clearly not the offensive GOAT. LeBron has clearly outperformed him, and I'm much more inclined to give certain older players that we don't have detailed +/- data on the benefit of the doubt over him (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar). And yes, Nash as well, who we do have +/- data for and has done better as an offensive force in the playoffs.

The people that act like it's a sin to view Curry as anything less than the offensive GOAT and nobody else comes close have got to be the most infuriating people to debate with here. Worse than Kobe fans honestly. Because any examination of how his offense falls off in the playoffs just gets reduced to his stat line, and the fact that the Warriors have won a bunch of games and 3 titles with him as the best player. And they totally dismiss just how good Green and Klay are, never mind Kevin Durant.

EDIT: didn't really know where else to post this, I realize this might not be the most relevant place, just had to get my thoughts out there though


What's interesting is that I'm very high on Curry, but often feel as though I am low on him after reading some of the Curry threads. For example, I think that his 2016 regular season is possibly the greatest offensive regular season of all-time, he is possibly the best off-ball player in history, and he was the Warriors' most valuable player during the Durant era. A lot of people would call my crazy for those opinions (because they'd think I was being too generous). However, I often find myself arguing against Curry somehow. :lol:

Ultimately, I think that the main point of disagreement I have with people is that I think it's important for him to produce in the box score. He always impacts games with his gravity, but he still needs to produce with scoring and shot making, which has been a bit of an issue in the playoffs, IMO.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:52 pm
by ardee
Has these last 8 games changed anything for people going into the Playoffs?

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:13 pm
by Dupp
ardee wrote:Has these last 8 games changed anything for people going into the Playoffs?



Probably just put more of a spotlight on lilly. But dude has been great all season and has had the best season of his career.


Besides that I think the bubble has been meaningless. Teams with more to play with won games while the three best teams looked ****. We will see soon enough though.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:38 pm
by eminence
Yeah, bubble hasn't moved too much yet. Lillard kept his hopes for a spot alive. But Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Kawhi were my clear top 4 coming into the bubble and that has yet to change. If any of Lillard/CP3/Butler/Doncic/Tatum/Jokic/Gobert can take a series off them then they'll likely be in. If not I'm not sure who'll wind up #5. Maybe Davis can sneak in to give the Lakers two in the top 5.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:38 pm
by WarriorGM
KTM_2813 wrote:What's interesting is that I'm very high on Curry, but often feel as though I am low on him after reading some of the Curry threads. For example, I think that his 2016 regular season is possibly the greatest offensive regular season of all-time, he is possibly the best off-ball player in history, and he was the Warriors' most valuable player during the Durant era. A lot of people would call my crazy for those opinions (because they'd think I was being too generous). However, I often find myself arguing against Curry somehow. :lol:

Ultimately, I think that the main point of disagreement I have with people is that I think it's important for him to produce in the box score. He always impacts games with his gravity, but he still needs to produce with scoring and shot making, which has been a bit of an issue in the playoffs, IMO.


Prior to these playoffs he was top 8 all-time career average ppg in the playoffs. How much higher does he need to be in the scoring department?

therealbig3 wrote:Man, I love Curry, people seem to forget that I was leading the Curry bandwagon during his 2016 season...but it is what it is, he consistently has issues in the playoffs to the point where he's clearly not the offensive GOAT. LeBron has clearly outperformed him, and I'm much more inclined to give certain older players that we don't have detailed +/- data on the benefit of the doubt over him (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar). And yes, Nash as well, who we do have +/- data for and has done better as an offensive force in the playoffs.

The people that act like it's a sin to view Curry as anything less than the offensive GOAT and nobody else comes close have got to be the most infuriating people to debate with here. Worse than Kobe fans honestly. Because any examination of how his offense falls off in the playoffs just gets reduced to his stat line, and the fact that the Warriors have won a bunch of games and 3 titles with him as the best player. And they totally dismiss just how good Green and Klay are, never mind Kevin Durant.

EDIT: didn't really know where else to post this, I realize this might not be the most relevant place, just had to get my thoughts out there though


Draymond and Klay are great—but it all starts with Curry. Compare their on/off with Curry and without and it should be painfully obvious. Think of iconic duos. Curry pairs extremely well—to an iconic standard—with many players. Curry and Klay are the Splash Brothers and best backcourt of all-time. Curry and Draymond are the consummate yin-yang of offense and defense complementing each other. Curry and Durant are arguably the most talented pair of NBA teammates in history. How many players pair so well with another teammate so that the pair become iconic as well as Curry?

You are willing to give the benefit of the doubt for +/- data to other players for unknown reasons over the player who has led +/- in multiple years and has the playoffs record. If you find the topic infuriating it's because the data and results contradict you. He's played against LeBron. He's played with Durant (which should make impact comparisons easy!). They look marvelous racking numbers but they still end up losing for some reason when playing against Curry. Curry has won one scoring title. He's beaten 4-time scoring champion Durant and 2-time scoring champion Westbrook playing against him at the same time in a series. He's come up victorious against 3-time scoring champion Harden in multiple series. You had to have two of the players among the top 10 in career average ppg in the finals to outgun his team in 7-games with multiple breaks even with Curry still winning in games scoring 15 points. Curry's impact is a thing.

Opposing coaches and teams are on the record saying they are willing to let LeBron and Durant get their numbers. They dare not with Curry. Curry's scoring efficiency is lethal.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:02 am
by KTM_2813
WarriorGM wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:What's interesting is that I'm very high on Curry, but often feel as though I am low on him after reading some of the Curry threads. For example, I think that his 2016 regular season is possibly the greatest offensive regular season of all-time, he is possibly the best off-ball player in history, and he was the Warriors' most valuable player during the Durant era. A lot of people would call my crazy for those opinions (because they'd think I was being too generous). However, I often find myself arguing against Curry somehow. :lol:

Ultimately, I think that the main point of disagreement I have with people is that I think it's important for him to produce in the box score. He always impacts games with his gravity, but he still needs to produce with scoring and shot making, which has been a bit of an issue in the playoffs, IMO.


Prior to these playoffs he was top 8 all-time career average ppg in the playoffs. How much higher does he need to be in the scoring department?


I think it depends on who he’s being measured against. If we’re trying to figure out whether or not he’s the GOAT offensive player, then “only” being eighth feels a bit low to me. And I’d be interested to see more advanced measures of scoring as well. IIRC, he didn’t crack ElGee’s top ten, but I’m pretty fuzzy.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:40 am
by WarriorGM
KTM_2813 wrote:Ultimately, I think that the main point of disagreement I have with people is that I think it's important for him to produce in the box score. He always impacts games with his gravity, but he still needs to produce with scoring and shot making, which has been a bit of an issue in the playoffs, IMO.

WarroirGM wrote:Prior to these playoffs he was top 8 all-time career average ppg in the playoffs. How much higher does he need to be in the scoring department?


I think it depends on who he’s being measured against. If we’re trying to figure out whether or not he’s the GOAT offensive player, then “only” being eighth feels a bit low to me. And I’d be interested to see more advanced measures of scoring as well. IIRC, he didn’t crack ElGee’s top ten, but I’m pretty fuzzy.


NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game

1. Michael Jordan* 33.45
2. Allen Iverson* 29.73
3. Jerry West* 29.13
4. Kevin Durant 29.09
5. LeBron James 28.89
6. Rick Barry* 27.33
7. Elgin Baylor* 27.04
8. Stephen Curry 26.50
9. George Gervin* 26.46
10. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.90

Looking at that list who do you think above Curry is a greater all-around offensive threat?

Magic Johnson and Steve Nash often come up in discussions of great offensive players. They're not close in terms of average ppg in the playoffs. Their offensive reputation is based mainly on how they got their teammates open. Curry does similar although one step more removed.

Curry is both a great offensive scorer and a great offensive creator.

Only list I'm aware of released by ElGee is his Top 40 based on "career value" which is very favorable to longevity. Coming into the league from high school and playing past the point of retirement for most players gives a leg up on that list.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:59 pm
by KTM_2813
WarriorGM wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:Ultimately, I think that the main point of disagreement I have with people is that I think it's important for him to produce in the box score. He always impacts games with his gravity, but he still needs to produce with scoring and shot making, which has been a bit of an issue in the playoffs, IMO.

WarroirGM wrote:Prior to these playoffs he was top 8 all-time career average ppg in the playoffs. How much higher does he need to be in the scoring department?


I think it depends on who he’s being measured against. If we’re trying to figure out whether or not he’s the GOAT offensive player, then “only” being eighth feels a bit low to me. And I’d be interested to see more advanced measures of scoring as well. IIRC, he didn’t crack ElGee’s top ten, but I’m pretty fuzzy.


NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Points Per Game

1. Michael Jordan* 33.45
2. Allen Iverson* 29.73
3. Jerry West* 29.13
4. Kevin Durant 29.09
5. LeBron James 28.89
6. Rick Barry* 27.33
7. Elgin Baylor* 27.04
8. Stephen Curry 26.50
9. George Gervin* 26.46
10. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.90

Looking at that list who do you think above Curry is a greater all-around offensive threat?

Magic Johnson and Steve Nash often come up in discussions of great offensive players. They're not close in terms of average ppg in the playoffs. Their offensive reputation is based mainly on how they got their teammates open. Curry does similar although one step more removed.

Curry is both a great offensive scorer and a great offensive creator.

Only list I'm aware of released by ElGee is his Top 40 based on "career value" which is very favorable to longevity. Coming into the league from high school and playing past the point of retirement for most players gives a leg up on that list.


I think it comes down to exactly what we are measuring (regular season offense, playoff offense, both, cumulative offensive value, peak offense, prime offense, etc.). As I mentioned above, if we're purely looking at peak regular season, then I think 2016 Curry has a strong case as the best offensive regular season ever. If we go the other way and focus more on longevity, then I'm pretty comfortable taking Jordan, Durant, and James from that last. Not well versed enough in the pre-80s guys, tbh.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:37 pm
by WarriorGM
KTM_2813 wrote:I think it comes down to exactly what we are measuring (regular season offense, playoff offense, both, cumulative offensive value, peak offense, prime offense, etc.). As I mentioned above, if we're purely looking at peak regular season, then I think 2016 Curry has a strong case as the best offensive regular season ever. If we go the other way and focus more on longevity, then I'm pretty comfortable taking Jordan, Durant, and James from that last. Not well versed enough in the pre-80s guys, tbh.


It's because the players being mentioned as supposedly superior to Curry offensively are his contemporaries that I find myself discussing the topic as often as I do. If it's Jordan then the best we can do is speculate. But with contemporaries like LeBron and Durant we do not have to. The evidence is right there in front of us. Nearly no hypotheticals required. They're playing under the same rules. They're playing in circumstances people are very familiar with. They are even playing with the same teammates on the same team in Durant's case! One cannot hope for a better real life experiment with controlled variables comparing two players. My conclusion is that Curry is simply the better offensive player and I don't really understand how other people can come to a different conclusion.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:33 pm
by KTM_2813
WarriorGM wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:I think it comes down to exactly what we are measuring (regular season offense, playoff offense, both, cumulative offensive value, peak offense, prime offense, etc.). As I mentioned above, if we're purely looking at peak regular season, then I think 2016 Curry has a strong case as the best offensive regular season ever. If we go the other way and focus more on longevity, then I'm pretty comfortable taking Jordan, Durant, and James from that last. Not well versed enough in the pre-80s guys, tbh.


It's because the players being mentioned as supposedly superior to Curry offensively are his contemporaries that I find myself discussing the topic as often as I do. If it's Jordan then the best we can do is speculate. But with contemporaries like LeBron and Durant we do not have to. The evidence is right there in front of us. Nearly no hypotheticals required. They're playing under the same rules. They're playing in circumstances people are very familiar with. They are even playing with the same teammates on the same team in Durant's case! One cannot hope for a better real life experiment with controlled variables comparing two players. My conclusion is that Curry is simply the better offensive player and I don't really understand how other people can come to a different conclusion.


Again, I think it really just comes down to exactly what we're measuring. If we're after cumulative offensive value, then other players have strong arguments over Curry because of Curry's injury issues. If we're zooming in on healthy performance over a meaningful sample size (i.e. several years), then Curry has great arguments all around.

My main concerns with him are [1] injuries and [2] partially due to injuries, the degree to which his offensive performance dips in the playoffs. The performance dip doesn't disqualify him in the GOAT offensive player debate - if he falls from a 100 to a 90, and no one else is at a 90, then he's still the best - but it's worth discussing, IMO. IIRC, Curry's statistical profile dropped the most from regular season to postseason of anyone in ElGee's database as of 2019.

Anyhow, probably dipping out. I hope to see Curry back firing on all cylinders next year. Cheers.

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:54 pm
by yoyoboy
WarriorGM wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:I think it comes down to exactly what we are measuring (regular season offense, playoff offense, both, cumulative offensive value, peak offense, prime offense, etc.). As I mentioned above, if we're purely looking at peak regular season, then I think 2016 Curry has a strong case as the best offensive regular season ever. If we go the other way and focus more on longevity, then I'm pretty comfortable taking Jordan, Durant, and James from that last. Not well versed enough in the pre-80s guys, tbh.


It's because the players being mentioned as supposedly superior to Curry offensively are his contemporaries that I find myself discussing the topic as often as I do. If it's Jordan then the best we can do is speculate. But with contemporaries like LeBron and Durant we do not have to. The evidence is right there in front of us. Nearly no hypotheticals required. They're playing under the same rules. They're playing in circumstances people are very familiar with. They are even playing with the same teammates on the same team in Durant's case! One cannot hope for a better real life experiment with controlled variables comparing two players. My conclusion is that Curry is simply the better offensive player and I don't really understand how other people can come to a different conclusion.

Surely you understand that it’s not exactly the same circumstances when Steph had by far the most talented supporting cast in the league in 2017 and 2018 right? That can’t be discounted in why they won and you can’t chalk that all up to “Curry impact.” He’s a better offensive player than KD for sure, I’ll give you that. But while I would have to go back and look at the numbers I remember the Warriors’ postseason offenses have been nothing special outside of when KD played. I definitely don’t think his offensive impact has been the same in the PO for the most part compared to his potentially GOAT-level regular season impact during the Warriors’ stretch of domination.