2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#181 » by Dupp » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:23 am

Why are we talking lukas “case” for top 5... what exactly is kawhis case over luka as things stand now?

As for AD, luka is clearly ahead.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#182 » by GSP » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:48 am

Paul George in the playoffs since hes been in the West has been tragic

Pandemic P is nowhere near Jimmy Butler. Some were actually arguing him VS prime Kd during the Rs last year with his hot streak lmfao
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#183 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:58 am

Dupp wrote:Why are we talking lukas “case” for top 5... what exactly is kawhis case over luka as things stand now?

As for AD, luka is clearly ahead.

defense i guess, unlike in 2019, kawhi's defense has actually been fairly consustently impactful and he has a strong case for best perimiter defender(tho obviously that still keeps him well short of the likes of giannis, gobert, embid, ect.)

It's hard tho to argue kawhi's defense is worth more than kawhi's playmaking when the mavs are doing better than they should
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#184 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:01 am

KTM_2813 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:I think it comes down to exactly what we are measuring (regular season offense, playoff offense, both, cumulative offensive value, peak offense, prime offense, etc.). As I mentioned above, if we're purely looking at peak regular season, then I think 2016 Curry has a strong case as the best offensive regular season ever. If we go the other way and focus more on longevity, then I'm pretty comfortable taking Jordan, Durant, and James from that last. Not well versed enough in the pre-80s guys, tbh.


It's because the players being mentioned as supposedly superior to Curry offensively are his contemporaries that I find myself discussing the topic as often as I do. If it's Jordan then the best we can do is speculate. But with contemporaries like LeBron and Durant we do not have to. The evidence is right there in front of us. Nearly no hypotheticals required. They're playing under the same rules. They're playing in circumstances people are very familiar with. They are even playing with the same teammates on the same team in Durant's case! One cannot hope for a better real life experiment with controlled variables comparing two players. My conclusion is that Curry is simply the better offensive player and I don't really understand how other people can come to a different conclusion.


Again, I think it really just comes down to exactly what we're measuring. If we're after cumulative offensive value, then other players have strong arguments over Curry because of Curry's injury issues. If we're zooming in on healthy performance over a meaningful sample size (i.e. several years), then Curry has great arguments all around.

My main concerns with him are [1] injuries and [2] partially due to injuries, the degree to which his offensive performance dips in the playoffs. The performance dip doesn't disqualify him in the GOAT offensive player debate - if he falls from a 100 to a 90, and no one else is at a 90, then he's still the best - but it's worth discussing, IMO. IIRC, Curry's statistical profile dropped the most from regular season to postseason of anyone in ElGee's database as of 2019.

Anyhow, probably dipping out. I hope to see Curry back firing on all cylinders next year. Cheers.

Well, its worth noting with elgee's thing, that he specfically attributed that drop off to 16 and 18 injury plagued seasons, as far as elgee is conerned, the drop off in his healthy seasons is perfectly normal.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#185 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:03 am

WarriorGM wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
So? The 1994 Chicago Bulls had 55 wins without Jordan. Having a great team does not seem to be hindering his reputation. Curry like Jordan showed he could turn a franchise around. Curry has done that in a more convincing manner than any of his contemporaries.


*laughs in lebron james


Remind me how long it took James to win a championship with the Cavaliers. Or simply to win his first.

Curry was the first player to be born in Akron to lead a team to an NBA championship in Cleveland. LOL.

when you're comparing curry to players like magic or jordan, going into "erneh rings" isn't the best look.


By the metrics that paint the warriors as a 40-50 win team without curry, the cavs were a 20 win team without Lebron from 9-10 and then the seasno after they played at a 20 win pace before blowing everything up.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#186 » by yoyoboy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:09 am

Davis has been incredible but man I have a hard time not putting Luka in that 5th spot. What a game and what a start to his playoff career.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#187 » by WarriorGM » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:08 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
*laughs in lebron james


Remind me how long it took James to win a championship with the Cavaliers. Or simply to win his first.

Curry was the first player to be born in Akron to lead a team to an NBA championship in Cleveland. LOL.

when you're comparing curry to players like magic or jordan, going into "erneh rings" isn't the best look.

By the metrics that paint the warriors as a 40-50 win team without curry, the cavs were a 20 win team without Lebron from 9-10 and then the seasno after they played at a 20 win pace before blowing everything up.


Did I bring up number of rings? What I brought up was speed in which the franchise that drafted them saw a championship.

To reach optimal efficiency LeBron forces his teams to conform to his style of play and become dependent on him. Look at what happened to Bosh and Love. Curry doesn't or at least not to the same degree. Curry being more efficient doesn't require the ball all the time to win. He can distribute the excess efficiency around. Curry complements his teammates' strengths rather than overriding them. That's why LeBron's teams have a tendency to collapse without him. Also the difficulty of raising a team 10 spots from 20 to 30 wins is less than raising it from 60 to 70. Think of free throw % as an example. The relationship is not linear.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#188 » by JordansBulls » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:34 am

Would have been nice having Luka with Dirk when Luka was ascending kinda like Kawhi had Duncan when Kawhi was ascending.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#189 » by JordansBulls » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:36 am

MisterHibachi wrote:
eminence wrote:C'mon y'all, there's plenty of places for Curry discussion, the '19-'20 POY thread doesn't seem like one of them.

Anybody have any favorites for that 5th spot right now? LeBron/Giannis/Harden/Kawhi seem like near locks barring injury imo.


AD is a front-runner for that 5th spot.

A guy who has the best stats on his team and advanced metrics in the season is only 5th? How so?
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#190 » by ardee » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:33 pm

eminence wrote:C'mon y'all, there's plenty of places for Curry discussion, the '19-'20 POY thread doesn't seem like one of them.

Anybody have any favorites for that 5th spot right now? LeBron/Giannis/Harden/Kawhi seem like near locks barring injury imo.


I don't see Harden as a top 5 lock personally. He was excellent in the bubble but people are forgetting he had some really rough stretches pre shutdown. He is definitely in the mix but I could see Luka and AD bumping him.

I think those 6 are a level above everyone else. Lillard, Tatum, Jimmy and Jokic would round out by top 10 in some order. Of those, I think Tatum and Butler have the best chance to move up (more likely Tatum).
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#191 » by E-Balla » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:33 pm

Dupp wrote:Why are we talking lukas “case” for top 5... what exactly is kawhis case over luka as things stand now?

As for AD, luka is clearly ahead.

Look at the Clippers without Kawhi. Look at the Mavericks without Luka. Look at the Clippers with Kawhi. Look at the Mavericks with Luka. There's Kawhi's case in a nutshell.

Anyone thinking Luka has the same impact on winning as Kawhi wasn't paying attention to anything but gaudy boxscore numbers.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#192 » by therealbig3 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:48 pm

ardee wrote:
eminence wrote:C'mon y'all, there's plenty of places for Curry discussion, the '19-'20 POY thread doesn't seem like one of them.

Anybody have any favorites for that 5th spot right now? LeBron/Giannis/Harden/Kawhi seem like near locks barring injury imo.


I don't see Harden as a top 5 lock personally. He was excellent in the bubble but people are forgetting he had some really rough stretches pre shutdown. He is definitely in the mix but I could see Luka and AD bumping him.

I think those 6 are a level above everyone else. Lillard, Tatum, Jimmy and Jokic would round out by top 10 in some order. Of those, I think Tatum and Butler have the best chance to move up (more likely Tatum).


I agree, those are my top 6 as well. I think it's between AD and Harden for my last spot.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#193 » by therealbig3 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:50 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Dupp wrote:Why are we talking lukas “case” for top 5... what exactly is kawhis case over luka as things stand now?

As for AD, luka is clearly ahead.

Look at the Clippers without Kawhi. Look at the Mavericks without Luka. Look at the Clippers with Kawhi. Look at the Mavericks with Luka. There's Kawhi's case in a nutshell.

Anyone thinking Luka has the same impact on winning as Kawhi wasn't paying attention to anything but gaudy boxscore numbers.


I agree, I think Luka at his best, like in game 4, just looks like he's on another level compared to everyone else, but he's not at the level yet where that's who he is and it's not just a hot streak.

Kawhi has been more consistent and a higher impact player overall this year, and so I give him the nod. If the Clippers get upset with Doncic leading the way without KP, that narrative is really hard to ignore though. Especially if Doncic keeps killing it.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#194 » by GSP » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:37 pm

Thoughts on Lukas 1st series?
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#195 » by therealbig3 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:01 pm

GSP wrote:Thoughts on Lukas 1st series?


I thought he played great despite being down his second star and going up against two elite defensive wings and an overall elite defensive team. Luka was a legit challenger for best player in the series, although I would give that to Kawhi.

Also demonstrated the biggest flaw in his game that he'll need to improve on for next year: his shooting, primarily from the FT line. Was routinely leaving 4-5 points at the FT line in what seemed like every game. Otherwise, as he continues to improve his outside shot and his FT shooting, I see big things in the future for him. As it stands, Dallas clearly needs to just add some stronger pieces around him, because I think he's capable of leading a team to a title as of right now, he's that good already. Don't think anyone came in this close to being a finished product as an all-time great since Duncan.

EDIT: also obviously his defense needs to get better, but I think he showed flashes in this series of how good he can be defensively if he can give the consistent effort, KP being healthy will go a long way towards Doncic being able to conserve energy for the defensive end of the court.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#196 » by Homer38 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:04 pm

Will Luka finish in the top 5 even if they are eliminated?
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#197 » by GSP » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:32 am

Homer38 wrote:Will Luka finish in the top 5 even if they are eliminated?


With the way Ad has been playing no he wont

Giannis/Lebron/Kawhi/Harden are clearly above and Ad has been dominant so far on both ends
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#198 » by eminence » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:36 am

It was a valiant effort by Luka, but I'd say it's unlikely. Would probably need the Lakers to go down in round 2 so AD can't make a deep run as #2. Also no surprise guys (eg Tatum) leading finals runs.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#199 » by therealbig3 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:36 am

GSP wrote:
Homer38 wrote:Will Luka finish in the top 5 even if they are eliminated?


With the way Ad has been playing no he wont

Giannis/Lebron/Kawhi/Harden are clearly above and Ad has been dominant so far on both ends


Why Harden clearly ahead of Luka? Obviously, Luka can't add to his season any more, and Harden still can, but I think they've been very similar so far this year, and Luka played great.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#200 » by MisterHibachi » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:44 am

Murray with 25 with a few minutes left in the second quarter. He's almost for sure going to drop 40 for the third straight game. Pretty insane.
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