2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Moderators: Quotatious, Clyde Frazier, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, PaulieWal

User avatar
Dupp
RealGM
Posts: 105,223
And1: 56,941
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Location: Billy Crystals lap
 

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#441 » by Dupp » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 am

Oh and Jokers definitely above Kawhi for me now, maybe Giannis too.

Tatum and butler are surging and Murray needs some love somewhere, maybe a honourable mention.
Neato wrote:I'd also like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone for being a neato
freethedevil
Head Coach
Posts: 6,186
And1: 2,836
Joined: Dec 09, 2018
         

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#442 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:47 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Krodis wrote:Like, if you're going to miss 25% of regular season games for rest, you have to do better than... whatever that was. At least Giannis had a monster regular season and gave his team the 1 seed.


This is an excellent point and I've made decisions in the past based on similar arguments so I'll chew on it more here.

But so we're clear, Kawhi was 5th in the league in +/- way far beyond his teammates, ahead of LeBron, and also way ahead of someone like Harden. It wasn't like last year, to me Kawhi was a pretty easy pick for 3rd for MVP behind Giannis and LeBron and so while I expect him to drop, he's dropping from relatively rare air.

5th is cool, but giannis was literally posting goat level impact stats.
Jim Naismith
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,139
And1: 1,852
Joined: Apr 17, 2013

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#443 » by Jim Naismith » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:05 pm

limbo wrote:
GSP wrote:
limbo wrote:People really going HAM after a couple of games and throwing everything out the window, lmao

At this point, if the Lakers lose to the Heat in the Finals, i expect Goran Dragic in some of these Top 5's...


Best Slovenian player in the Nba


Slovenian? Why stop there? Best European player in the NBA, and he proved it in 2017... And if he wins the NBA title this season he will also be the best player on the planet :D


Do you consider Giannis European?
User avatar
Basileus777
Head Coach
Posts: 7,332
And1: 1,595
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Location: New Jersey
 

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#444 » by Basileus777 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:13 pm

I think the flipside of the player empowerment era, is that it's reasonable to hold team flaws against a player when they were a huge driver behind team composition. Kawhi picked his team and forced the Clippers to trade a king's ransom for Paul George. The end result being an underachiever should impact Kawhi's ranking.
limbo
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,669
And1: 1,483
Joined: Jun 30, 2019
 

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#445 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:25 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
limbo wrote:
GSP wrote:
Best Slovenian player in the Nba


Slovenian? Why stop there? Best European player in the NBA, and he proved it in 2017... And if he wins the NBA title this season he will also be the best player on the planet :D


Do you consider Giannis European?


Do you consider Jeremy Lin American?
Jim Naismith
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,139
And1: 1,852
Joined: Apr 17, 2013

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#446 » by Jim Naismith » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:34 pm

limbo wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
limbo wrote:
Slovenian? Why stop there? Best European player in the NBA, and he proved it in 2017... And if he wins the NBA title this season he will also be the best player on the planet :D


Do you consider Giannis European?


Do you consider Jeremy Lin American?

Yes.

So why are you claiming Luka was the best European player in the NBA in 2017?
No-more-rings
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,760
And1: 1,848
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#447 » by No-more-rings » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:38 pm

It's sort of crazy how much one or 2 games are swinging rankings for people. Jokic outperformed Kawhi in the series, but saying he should rank higher on the whole season is going too far imo. Up until that the last game which was a poor showing for sure, he was averaging 26/9/6 on 59 ts%. It wasn't his best series, but he still has such a strong playoff track record I'm not willing to just wash his season away like that.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 13,251
And1: 9,152
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#448 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:56 pm

No-more-rings wrote:It's sort of crazy how much one or 2 games are swinging rankings for people. Jokic outperformed Kawhi in the series, but saying he should rank higher on the whole season is going too far imo. Up until that the last game which was a poor showing for sure, he was averaging 26/9/6 on 59 ts%. It wasn't his best series, but he still has such a strong playoff track record I'm not willing to just wash his season away like that.

I agree, Jokic'd have to prove himself in another series against the toughest team he ever faced in playoffs to consider him over Kawhi.
Homer38
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,946
And1: 3,184
Joined: Dec 04, 2013

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#449 » by Homer38 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:58 pm

For me,the way that you perform in crucial moment in a season is very important in the rankings...Not the only thing which is important but it matter a lot for me.
limbo
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,669
And1: 1,483
Joined: Jun 30, 2019
 

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#450 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:00 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
limbo wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Do you consider Giannis European?


Do you consider Jeremy Lin American?

Yes.

So why are you claiming Luka was the best European player in the NBA in 2017?


I'm not. Dragic was.
No-more-rings
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,760
And1: 1,848
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#451 » by No-more-rings » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:04 pm

And btw, I'm going to wait until the playoffs are completely over until i make a final top 5 list. It's too easy to overreact and make constant changes to it so i don't see the point.
freethedevil
Head Coach
Posts: 6,186
And1: 2,836
Joined: Dec 09, 2018
         

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#452 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:10 pm

70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:It's sort of crazy how much one or 2 games are swinging rankings for people. Jokic outperformed Kawhi in the series, but saying he should rank higher on the whole season is going too far imo. Up until that the last game which was a poor showing for sure, he was averaging 26/9/6 on 59 ts%. It wasn't his best series, but he still has such a strong playoff track record I'm not willing to just wash his season away like that.

I agree, Jokic'd have to prove himself in another series against the toughest team he ever faced in playoffs to consider him over Kawhi.

why are you holding kawhi to lower standards than jokic? Who did kawhi play these playoffs, the mavs without their best rim protector? the nuggets?

Like we need to see the forest for the trees at some point.

wsf-> team underperforms
first round -> team underperforms
last finals -> team underperforms

WHen is the last time a kawhi led team overperformed based on where you would rank his supporting cast beforehand in the playoffs?

This feels like box stat watching. Kawhi's impact is dubious. I see no reason to give him a benefit of the doubt that wasn't afforded to jokic last postseason when jokic was stasticlaly having the best playoffs by far.

Jokic was literally the best defensive player on the floor by a landslide yesterday. You can't keep ignoring what actually happens.
User avatar
E-Balla
RealGM
Posts: 31,760
And1: 20,518
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Location: The Poster Formerly Known As The Gotham City Pantalones
   

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#453 » by E-Balla » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:20 pm

freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:It's sort of crazy how much one or 2 games are swinging rankings for people. Jokic outperformed Kawhi in the series, but saying he should rank higher on the whole season is going too far imo. Up until that the last game which was a poor showing for sure, he was averaging 26/9/6 on 59 ts%. It wasn't his best series, but he still has such a strong playoff track record I'm not willing to just wash his season away like that.

I agree, Jokic'd have to prove himself in another series against the toughest team he ever faced in playoffs to consider him over Kawhi.

why are you holding kawhi to lower standards than jokic? Who did kawhi play these playoffs, the mavs without their best rim protector?

Can we stop acting like KP didn't play because he missed the 2nd half of the series? KP wasn't doing much to stop Kawhi in games 1-3 and he was still averaging 33 ppg on 63 TS% even though he couldn't hit a 3 pointer to save his life.
"The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict." - Martin Luther King
No-more-rings
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,760
And1: 1,848
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#454 » by No-more-rings » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:22 pm

freethedevil wrote:why are you holding kawhi to lower standards than jokic? Who did kawhi play these playoffs, the mavs without their best rim protector? the nuggets?


Oh come on, Kawhi has played well against strong teams and individual matchups before. Stop acting like he's some unproven player or something.

freethedevil wrote:WHen is the last time a kawhi led team overperformed based on where you would rank his supporting cast beforehand in the playoffs?


That's easy. Against the Bucks last year, where he was probably the most important guy in the scheme that shut Giannis down, the same player you prop up despite losing in embarrassing fashion every year in the playoffs.

freethedevil wrote:This feels like box stat watching.


Ironic considering how much you prop of Giannis' box scores.

freethedevil wrote: Kawhi's impact is dubious.


Giannis' offensive impact is way more dubious if we're being serious.

freethedevil wrote:Jokic was literally the best defensive player on the floor by a landslide yesterday. You can't keep ignoring what actually happens.

I didn't ignore it. But it's also clear to me Jokic's supporting cast was better and the team was simply better coached in the series. Like people really need to start giving Murray more credit, he's a legitimately bad dude. Jokic was the best player on the floor yesterday but Murray drops 40 and no one gives a damn.
Yuri36
Pro Prospect
Posts: 767
And1: 473
Joined: Feb 03, 2019

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#455 » by Yuri36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:28 pm

therealbig3 wrote:I especially like the point earlier about how letting these series play out is important, because I was so hard on Giannis earlier and wanted to drop him out of my top 5...but then you see how Harden and Kawhi went out, and it's hard to justify right now that they should be ahead of Giannis. They did perform better than he did in the playoffs...but by how much? They certainly weren't untouchable themselves, they looked quite bad in their elimination games. Giannis was actually playing very well in game 4 before he got hurt. And he obviously blew them away in terms of his RS.

Only thing I'm really sold on is LeBron is 1, and AD and Jokic are top 5.

Also don't think we should be forgetting Doncic so quickly, although I don't see a good argument for him right now over Kawhi/Harden, who are battling for that #5 spot most likely.


Lol for his first NBA POs, Luka already performed better than Harden has ever had in POs.
limbo
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,669
And1: 1,483
Joined: Jun 30, 2019
 

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#456 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:34 pm

Anyway

Curious to see those guys that dropped Giannis out of their Top 5 and had Kawhi as high as #1 with Bron just last week try to justify ranking Kawhi over Giannis right now...

Both underperformed and got eliminated in the 2nd round by a lower seeded team.

Both preformed ar a similar level in the Playoffs.

Giannis clearly had the better RS tho, and was more available to boot.

If Giannis is out of your Top 5, Kawhi needs to as well. Not only that, but he needs to be ranked behind Giannis as well, as he didn't really perform better than him at any point of the season, and actually performed worse for the majority of it.
User avatar
MyUniBroDavis
Analyst
Posts: 3,152
And1: 1,335
Joined: Jan 14, 2013
   

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#457 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:38 pm

Yuri36 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:I especially like the point earlier about how letting these series play out is important, because I was so hard on Giannis earlier and wanted to drop him out of my top 5...but then you see how Harden and Kawhi went out, and it's hard to justify right now that they should be ahead of Giannis. They did perform better than he did in the playoffs...but by how much? They certainly weren't untouchable themselves, they looked quite bad in their elimination games. Giannis was actually playing very well in game 4 before he got hurt. And he obviously blew them away in terms of his RS.

Only thing I'm really sold on is LeBron is 1, and AD and Jokic are top 5.

Also don't think we should be forgetting Doncic so quickly, although I don't see a good argument for him right now over Kawhi/Harden, who are battling for that #5 spot most likely.


Lol for his first NBA POs, Luka already performed better than Harden has ever had in POs.


I mean i get the hype and his first series was hella fun and the highs he hit were crazy

But if we r being honest he had 2 fantastic games (4 and 6), 1 solid luka game (2) , 1 disaster (3), 1 bad game (5) and 1 mixed bag (1, yeah he scored 42 but like 11 turnovers is wild. I get its him getting used to playoffs but doesnt change it)
oof
User avatar
MyUniBroDavis
Analyst
Posts: 3,152
And1: 1,335
Joined: Jan 14, 2013
   

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#458 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:41 pm

limbo wrote:Anyway

Curious to see those guys that dropped Giannis out of their Top 5 and had Kawhi as high as #1 with Bron just last week try to justify ranking Kawhi over Giannis right now...

Both underperformed and got eliminated in the 2nd round by a lower seeded team.

Both preformed ar a similar level in the Playoffs.

Giannis clearly had the better RS tho, and was more available to boot.

If Giannis is out of your Top 5, Kawhi needs to as well. Not only that, but he needs to be ranked behind Giannis as well, as he didn't really perform better than him at any point of the season, and actually performed worse for the majority of it.


Who has giannis out of their top 5 lol?

I usually dont vote although i will this year, aside from bron 1 davis 2 its REALLY HARD this year from 3-6

I think jokic having a stinker now would drop him out of top 5 but hes probablt at 3 for me right now
oof
Yuri36
Pro Prospect
Posts: 767
And1: 473
Joined: Feb 03, 2019

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#459 » by Yuri36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:41 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Yuri36 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:I especially like the point earlier about how letting these series play out is important, because I was so hard on Giannis earlier and wanted to drop him out of my top 5...but then you see how Harden and Kawhi went out, and it's hard to justify right now that they should be ahead of Giannis. They did perform better than he did in the playoffs...but by how much? They certainly weren't untouchable themselves, they looked quite bad in their elimination games. Giannis was actually playing very well in game 4 before he got hurt. And he obviously blew them away in terms of his RS.

Only thing I'm really sold on is LeBron is 1, and AD and Jokic are top 5.

Also don't think we should be forgetting Doncic so quickly, although I don't see a good argument for him right now over Kawhi/Harden, who are battling for that #5 spot most likely.


Lol for his first NBA POs, Luka already performed better than Harden has ever had in POs.


I mean i get the hype and his first series was hella fun and the highs he hit were crazy

But if we r being honest he had 2 fantastic games (4 and 6), 1 solid luka game (2) , 1 disaster (3), 1 bad game (5) and 1 mixed bag (1, yeah he scored 42 but like 11 turnovers is wild. I get its him getting used to playoffs but doesnt change it)


You know what happened in the one disaster game you mentioned?
User avatar
MyUniBroDavis
Analyst
Posts: 3,152
And1: 1,335
Joined: Jan 14, 2013
   

Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#460 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm

Yuri36 wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Yuri36 wrote:
Lol for his first NBA POs, Luka already performed better than Harden has ever had in POs.


I mean i get the hype and his first series was hella fun and the highs he hit were crazy

But if we r being honest he had 2 fantastic games (4 and 6), 1 solid luka game (2) , 1 disaster (3), 1 bad game (5) and 1 mixed bag (1, yeah he scored 42 but like 11 turnovers is wild. I get its him getting used to playoffs but doesnt change it)


You know what happened in the one disaster game you mentioned?


Didnt the ankle happen at the end of the third tho lol, he wasnt doing well before that
oof

Return to Player Comparisons