2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#461 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:51 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:why are you holding kawhi to lower standards than jokic? Who did kawhi play these playoffs, the mavs without their best rim protector? the nuggets?


Oh come on, Kawhi has played well against strong teams and individual matchups before. Stop acting like he's some unproven player or something. he's played wlel against the bucks(with a 60 win supporting cast and memphis with a 55 win supporitng cast/b]

freethedevil wrote:WHen is the last time a kawhi led team overperformed based on where you would rank his supporting cast beforehand in the playoffs?


That's easy. Against the Bucks last year, where he was probably the most important guy in the scheme that shut Giannis down, the same player you prop up despite losing in embarrassing fashion every year in the playoffs.

[b]Huh? Are you unironically trying to argue that the bucks, who play 40-45 basketball without giannis are a comparable cast to the raptors who go 17-5 without kawhi and the next season make it as far as kawhi's clippers? The raptors were a van vleet hot srreak away from losing in 6. That was a marginally close series however you wanna spin it. Don't know how you can say kawhi's team overperformed when you compare kawhi and giannis's supporting casts.

freethedevil wrote:This feels like box stat watching.


Ironic considering how much you prop of Giannis' box scores.
i prop p hi sbox score his impact, his team success, his defense, his playmaking, and the fact he is a player who can anchor a defense and offense simulateously. None of that applies to kawhi for obvious reasons.
freethedevil wrote: Kawhi's impact is dubious.


Giannis' offensive impact is way more dubious if we're being serious.
Its almost like giannis is as valuable defensively as he is offensively allowing him to play like **** on offense and still take stacked 6o win supporting casts to the brink.
freethedevil wrote:Jokic was literally the best defensive player on the floor by a landslide yesterday. You can't keep ignoring what actually happens.

I didn't ignore it. But it's also clear to me Jokic's supporting cast was better and the team was simply better coached in the series. Like people really need to start giving Murray more credit, he's a legitimately bad dude. Jokic was the best player on the floor yesterday but Murray drops 40 and no one gives a damnBecause Murray did not create 16 open looks for his teammates. Nor did he get 20 rebonds, nor did he prevent easy buckets 7 times at the rim. Murraw was clearly scoring a bunch off of jokic's combiination of gravity and passing. Jokic is clearly the one making things run. Jokic got auto dimissed from the best player conversation last playoffs despite having a way better rs than kawhi and easily having the best playoffs statistically. Not letting him pass kawhi now irequires goalpost shifting..
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#462 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:12 pm

freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:It's sort of crazy how much one or 2 games are swinging rankings for people. Jokic outperformed Kawhi in the series, but saying he should rank higher on the whole season is going too far imo. Up until that the last game which was a poor showing for sure, he was averaging 26/9/6 on 59 ts%. It wasn't his best series, but he still has such a strong playoff track record I'm not willing to just wash his season away like that.

I agree, Jokic'd have to prove himself in another series against the toughest team he ever faced in playoffs to consider him over Kawhi.

why are you holding kawhi to lower standards than jokic? Who did kawhi play these playoffs, the mavs without their best rim protector? the nuggets?

Like we need to see the forest for the trees at some point.

wsf-> team underperforms
first round -> team underperforms
last finals -> team underperforms

WHen is the last time a kawhi led team overperformed based on where you would rank his supporting cast beforehand in the playoffs?

This feels like box stat watching. Kawhi's impact is dubious. I see no reason to give him a benefit of the doubt that wasn't afforded to jokic last postseason when jokic was stasticlaly having the best playoffs by far.

Jokic was literally the best defensive player on the floor by a landslide yesterday. You can't keep ignoring what actually happens.

Because Kawhi is proven at the highest stage and one underperformance doesn't destroy everything he did before.

Kawhi overperformed last year against the Bucks and some may argue that he did against Sixers given how badly his teammates played on offense in that series.

I don't think I'll have any discussion with you anymore. I don't call people a boxscore watchers, if you really believe that basketball fans on basketball forum don't watch basketball games, then you are a strange man... Stop being so offensive and arrogant.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#463 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:15 pm

70sFan wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:I agree, Jokic'd have to prove himself in another series against the toughest team he ever faced in playoffs to consider him over Kawhi.

why are you holding kawhi to lower standards than jokic? Who did kawhi play these playoffs, the mavs without their best rim protector? the nuggets?

Like we need to see the forest for the trees at some point.

wsf-> team underperforms
first round -> team underperforms
last finals -> team underperforms

WHen is the last time a kawhi led team overperformed based on where you would rank his supporting cast beforehand in the playoffs?

This feels like box stat watching. Kawhi's impact is dubious. I see no reason to give him a benefit of the doubt that wasn't afforded to jokic last postseason when jokic was stasticlaly having the best playoffs by far.

Jokic was literally the best defensive player on the floor by a landslide yesterday. You can't keep ignoring what actually happens.

Because Kawhi is proven at the highest stage and one underperformance doesn't destroy everything he did before.

Kawhi overperformed last year against the Bucks and some may argue that he did against Sixers given how badly his teammates played on offense in that series.

I don't think I'll have any discussion with you anymore. I don't call people a boxscore watchers, if you really believe that basketball fans on basketball forum don't watch basketball games, then you are a strange man... Stop being so offensive and arrogant.

oh but its fine when you and eballa say it? foh with your double standards.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#464 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:17 pm

limbo wrote:Anyway

Curious to see those guys that dropped Giannis out of their Top 5 and had Kawhi as high as #1 with Bron just last week try to justify ranking Kawhi over Giannis right now...

Both underperformed and got eliminated in the 2nd round by a lower seeded team.

Both preformed ar a similar level in the Playoffs.

Giannis clearly had the better RS tho, and was more available to boot.

If Giannis is out of your Top 5, Kawhi needs to as well. Not only that, but he needs to be ranked behind Giannis as well, as he didn't really perform better than him at any point of the season, and actually performed worse for the majority of it.

If that's on me, then I never said that I have Giannis outside of top 5. That said, Kawhi and Giannis didn't play at similar level in playoffs.

Kawhi had a few rough shooting nights at the wrong time - this game 7 is his fault but it didn't expose him as a player. He's the same player we knew before Nuggets series - two way monster who has problems with taking large playmaking role.

Giannis's offense has been exposed second straight year and this time he didn't play well defensively either. It's not that he played below his standards - it's the problem in that his style doesn't work in playoffs and is easy to gameplan against.

Don't compare these playoffs runs because both were upset. Giannis has to change the way he plays to reach top tier level. Kawhi has to make more shots, that's all.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#465 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:41 pm

70sFan wrote:
limbo wrote:Anyway

Curious to see those guys that dropped Giannis out of their Top 5 and had Kawhi as high as #1 with Bron just last week try to justify ranking Kawhi over Giannis right now...

Both underperformed and got eliminated in the 2nd round by a lower seeded team.

Both preformed ar a similar level in the Playoffs.

Giannis clearly had the better RS tho, and was more available to boot.

If Giannis is out of your Top 5, Kawhi needs to as well. Not only that, but he needs to be ranked behind Giannis as well, as he didn't really perform better than him at any point of the season, and actually performed worse for the majority of it.

If that's on me, then I never said that I have Giannis outside of top 5. That said, Kawhi and Giannis didn't play at similar level in playoffs.

Kawhi had a few rough shooting nights at the wrong time - this game 7 is his fault but it didn't expose him as a player. He's the same player we knew before Nuggets series - two way monster who has problems with taking large playmaking role.

Giannis's offense has been exposed second straight year and this time he didn't play well defensively either. It's not that he played below his standards - it's the problem in that his style doesn't work in playoffs and is easy to gameplan against.

Don't compare these playoffs runs because both were upset. Giannis has to change the way he plays to reach top tier level. Kawhi has to make more shots, that's all.


Wait i thought giannis was fine on defense even though he had a few 0 iq plays, agree with the other stuff

I mean not the same as his DPOY stuff maybe but he still was good at what he was asked to do on d
oof
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#466 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:50 pm

70sFan wrote:If that's on me, then I never said that I have Giannis outside of top 5. That said, Kawhi and Giannis didn't play at similar level in playoffs.

Kawhi had a few rough shooting nights at the wrong time - this game 7 is his fault but it didn't expose him as a player. He's the same player we knew before Nuggets series - two way monster who has problems with taking large playmaking role.

Giannis's offense has been exposed second straight year and this time he didn't play well defensively either. It's not that he played below his standards - it's the problem in that his style doesn't work in playoffs and is easy to gameplan against.

Don't compare these playoffs runs because both were upset. Giannis has to change the way he plays to reach top tier level. Kawhi has to make more shots, that's all.


You're right.

Giannis finished the PS with a higher volume of points per 100, on higher efficiency and had more impact as a playmaker than Kawhi, but Giannis was the one exposed...

Obviously there's nuances here worth discussing when it comes to Giannis, like the lack of perimeter gravity and his prior 'offenses' in terms of not proving his offensive resiliency in a way Kawhi has in two of the past three seasons - though, the problem this time was moreso on the other end of the court, a collapse defensively from the Bucks), but at the same time, let's not absolve Kawhi of all expectations from a player that's suppose to be challenging for the crown of the best player in the league because he made it all the way to the end last season... so now, no matter what he does from hereon out, and how he performs, it doesn't matter because "well, he proved it in the past and Giannis hasn't"... so it doesn't matter that he was literally worse over the whole year this time around...

Also, did we just forget that the Toronto Raptors were like a Top 5 level team in the league this season WITHOUT KAWHI... Yes, Kawhi was the best player for them in 2019. Yes, he performed exceptionally as the 1st option and led the team to a title. But comparing the situation he had there with Toronto, with what Giannis has to do for Milwaukee to succeed, it's not really comparable, tbh. And Kawhi found out this year first-hand how an increased burden/responsibility on offense (as well as less help defensively to offset that, and terrible coaching decisions) can affect your ability to perform at your usual level.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#467 » by No-more-rings » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:57 pm

I thought your reply was directed at me even though looking back it was at 70s fan, but being I'm still on the Kawhi side, I'll try to answer some more of this.

freethedevil wrote:
Huh? Are you unironically trying to argue that the bucks, who play 40-45 basketball without giannis are a comparable cast to the raptors who go 17-5 without kawhi and the next season make it as far as kawhi's clippers? The raptors were a van vleet hot srreak away from losing in 6. That was a marginally close series however you wanna spin it. Don't know how you can say kawhi's team overperformed when you compare kawhi and giannis's supporting casts.

Where you getting the claim that the Bucks are merely a 40-45 caliber club without him? I don't think we have a good enough sample to claim that.

It was a fairly close series you're right, but you seem to be pushing this idea that Kawhi's teams always underperform in the playoffs it's just not true. This is the first series of his prime where they lost and shouldn't have. Let's not get carried away here.

freethedevil wrote:i prop p hi sbox score his impact, his team success, his defense, his playmaking, and the fact he is a player who can anchor a defense and offense simulateously. None of that applies to kawhi for obvious reasons.


This simply doesn't seem like a fair statement. The Clippers jumped from 9th to 2nd on offense, and 21st to 5th on defense with his arrival.

He took the Raptors to heights they only dreamed of with Demar, so I'm not going to really say much else about that.

freethedevil wrote:Its almost like giannis is as valuable defensively as he is offensively allowing him to play like **** on offense and still take stacked 6o win supporting casts to the brink.


Except that wasn't at all the case this year.

freethedevil wrote:Because Murray did not create 16 open looks for his teammates. Nor did he get 20 rebonds, nor did he prevent easy buckets 7 times at the rim. Murraw was clearly scoring a bunch off of jokic's combiination of gravity and passing. Jokic is clearly the one making things run. Jokic got auto dimissed from the best player conversation last playoffs despite having a way better rs than kawhi and easily having the best playoffs statistically. Not letting him pass kawhi now irequires goalpost shifting.[/b].

I don't know what you're really talking about with last year's playoffs. Jokic feasted on back to back weak defensive matchups last year in the playoffs. He's been impressive again this year, but clearly worse than last year's run.

I don't get what the fuss is about. Jokic's showing to be a really resilient playoff performer, and good for him but let's not act like they didn't get lucky in both of these series. And they needed 7 games to beat the Spurs last year as well. Kawhi's probably had 3 series better between this year and last year that are better than anything Jokic managed.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#468 » by Fundamentals21 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:09 pm

Man, I have Jokic as the best player in the league (not named LeBron) at times, the way he's been in the playoff. I am sort of on a playoff high after Jokic. That was a clear cut upset for me, with Kawhi and George performing at their best and Jokic + supporting cast dominating them to the end.

I love Jokic. He's emerged as the strongest bigmen amongst the European class of beingmen and that's no mean feat. Val. Marc Gasol. Nurkic. Porzingis, etc. Being the strongest big man on this class means something for sure, as does outplaying a Kawhi led team ( and Kawhi was at his very peak with scoring all year). IMO, Jokic is something of a legend amongst bigmen and a def. MVP type.

1. LeBron
2. Giannis ( still can't forgo his RS acheivements. Too vast)
3. Jokic
4. Jimmy Butler
5. Doncic

Tentative rankings. I still have too much to change depending on the day. I am sitll debating playoff Tatum vs Brown. etc.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#469 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:52 pm

Fundamentals21 wrote:Man, I have Jokic as the best player in the league (not named LeBron) at times, the way he's been in the playoff. I am sort of on a playoff high after Jokic. That was a clear cut upset for me, with Kawhi and George performing at their best and Jokic + supporting cast dominating them to the end.

I love Jokic. He's emerged as the strongest bigmen amongst the European class of beingmen and that's no mean feat. Val. Marc Gasol. Nurkic. Porzingis, etc. Being the strongest big man on this class means something for sure, as does outplaying a Kawhi led team ( and Kawhi was at his very peak with scoring all year). IMO, Jokic is something of a legend amongst bigmen and a def. MVP type.

1. LeBron
2. Giannis ( still can't forgo his RS acheivements. Too vast)
3. Jokic
4. Jimmy Butler
5. Doncic

Tentative rankings. I still have too much to change depending on the day. I am sitll debating playoff Tatum vs Brown. etc.

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#470 » by Goudelock » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:03 pm

I hate to interrupt this debate, but can someone explain to me why the Clippers kept doubling Jokic? I know he's a great scorer, but I'd rather see him go for 40 than have him have a 10 assists to open three point shooters and layup makers.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#471 » by parsnips33 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:07 pm

If Conley hits that 3 at the end of game 7, is Jokic on anybody's top 5 list? Kinda funny how much difference one shot can make
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#472 » by The High Cyde » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Goudelock wrote:I hate to interrupt this debate, but can someone explain to me why the Clippers kept doubling Jokic? I know he's a great scorer, but I'd rather see him go for 40 than have him have a 10 assists to open three point shooters and layup makers.

We didn’t know how to defend him at all. That falls on Doc.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#473 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:35 pm

Here's a question that might have sound ironic and plain stupid just a year ago.

How much credit do we give Jimmy Butler for his leadership? Coming to a new team with lots of young inexperienced players and instilling a certain level of confidence/belief among this Heat squad that is, in some way, playing greater than the sum of its parts right now, and leading by example every day both on and off the court?

As far as i've noticed, if we're talking about 'intangible' qualities such as chemistry, camaraderie, team spirit, hard work, confidence, mental preparation, and being physically and conditionally up to task every single game... not saying the Lakers, Nuggets, Celtics, Raptors don't have these things, but the Heat probably stand out more than any team in that department this season.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#474 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:37 pm

Goudelock wrote:I hate to interrupt this debate, but can someone explain to me why the Clippers kept doubling Jokic? I know he's a great scorer, but I'd rather see him go for 40 than have him have a 10 assists to open three point shooters and layup makers.


Honestly it feels really damning of Doc to me.

On one level, it's basic coaching adjustments. A guy's shooting and scoring really hurt us last game, so now we adjust to make sure that's not what beats us next time.

But on a broader level, you should simply know going into the series that Jokic's passing is the thing to fear and to never do anything to make that easier. As they said on the broadcast, it's not just that you can't plan double teams against Jokic, it's that you literally can't ever do a double team unless you manage to sneak up on Jokic. The moment he sees it - and he'll notice it the second it's within his visual range because he's Jokic - you are toast.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#475 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:40 pm

The High Cyde wrote:
Goudelock wrote:I hate to interrupt this debate, but can someone explain to me why the Clippers kept doubling Jokic? I know he's a great scorer, but I'd rather see him go for 40 than have him have a 10 assists to open three point shooters and layup makers.

We didn’t know how to defend him at all. That falls on Doc.


In fairness, I don't think there's any great way to defend someone that good at both scoring and passing. But there are still ways that are obviously not the best way, and you would hope that you wouldn't even see those in Game 1, let alone Game 7.

In terms of where the Clippers go from here the interesting thing is that firing Doc isn't necessarily the answer. You need to get a better tactician on your coaching staff, but it could be a Thibs-like assistant. Given someone like that, Doc's interpersonal skills are still likely a positive even if he "deserves" to get fired.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#476 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:43 pm

parsnips33 wrote:If Conley hits that 3 at the end of game 7, is Jokic on anybody's top 5 list? Kinda funny how much difference one shot can make


Yup. This is where things get tricky for conversations like this. The pure rationalist would point out that there's a lot of luck involved and seeing your rankings drastically change as a result of one shot is absurd.

But the thing is that athletic accomplishment in a league like this is not something that you earn basket by basket. In the end, it's about holistic accomplishment. It's about indelible moments that are worth talking about decades later. Because Conley missed that shot, we got to see Jokic and co do what they did against the Clippers, and what they did against the Clippers is indelible.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#477 » by NinjaSheppard » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:55 pm

I think an issue with Doc is that he really gets his guys to buy into things that they shouldn't. He is an enabler and in the worst way.

With the Lob City group he really got those guys to believe that the refs were against them. It reached a point that when a call wouldn't go their way they would absolutely get rattled. This Clippers team really behaved like the reigning champion. In a lot of ways they had guys outside of Kawhi acting like they were on the Raptors team of last year. Doc really needed to knock them down multiple pegs and instead he just enabled them. When Marcus Morris got himself ejected with that stupid foul on Doncic (which was a potential 6 point play) that could have really hurt the Clippers. Instead, Doc is talking about how he got screwed over despite the fact that he kept going out of his way to make stupid reckless plays on Doncic.

At some point you need your coach to ground guys into reality and Doc really doesn't do that.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#478 » by No-more-rings » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:29 pm

NinjaSheppard wrote:I think an issue with Doc is that he really gets his guys to buy into things that they shouldn't. He is an enabler and in the worst way.

With the Lob City group he really got those guys to believe that the refs were against them. It reached a point that when a call wouldn't go their way they would absolutely get rattled. This Clippers team really behaved like the reigning champion. In a lot of ways they had guys outside of Kawhi acting like they were on the Raptors team of last year. Doc really needed to knock them down multiple pegs and instead he just enabled them. When Marcus Morris got himself ejected with that stupid foul on Doncic (which was a potential 6 point play) that could have really hurt the Clippers. Instead, Doc is talking about how he got screwed over despite the fact that he kept going out of his way to make stupid reckless plays on Doncic.

At some point you need your coach to ground guys into reality and Doc really doesn't do that.

This is an interesting theory. How do you view Kawhi as a leader? I see him sort of neutral in that regard, his game has typically led well but he doesn't seem like much of a talker or motivator through actual words.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#479 » by Fundamentals21 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:34 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:Man, I have Jokic as the best player in the league (not named LeBron) at times, the way he's been in the playoff. I am sort of on a playoff high after Jokic. That was a clear cut upset for me, with Kawhi and George performing at their best and Jokic + supporting cast dominating them to the end.

I love Jokic. He's emerged as the strongest bigmen amongst the European class of beingmen and that's no mean feat. Val. Marc Gasol. Nurkic. Porzingis, etc. Being the strongest big man on this class means something for sure, as does outplaying a Kawhi led team ( and Kawhi was at his very peak with scoring all year). IMO, Jokic is something of a legend amongst bigmen and a def. MVP type.

1. LeBron
2. Giannis ( still can't forgo his RS acheivements. Too vast)
3. Jokic
4. Jimmy Butler
5. Doncic

Tentative rankings. I still have too much to change depending on the day. I am sitll debating playoff Tatum vs Brown. etc.

how is ad not on your list


Meh. Not enough space on the Top 5. Haha.

That being said, there are a few problems acting as the best player of the team. I love him as your 2nd fiddle but he doesn't provably have the on court awareness that some of the Top 5 types have. He def. works out on the Lakers as a perennial all star big but that's all I really see in AD. He's in my Top 15 as a go to scorer and perennial all star/ All NBA type bigman.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#480 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:59 pm

Goudelock wrote:I hate to interrupt this debate, but can someone explain to me why the Clippers kept doubling Jokic? I know he's a great scorer, but I'd rather see him go for 40 than have him have a 10 assists to open three point shooters and layup makers.

Yeah, I don't get it either. Jokic is a great scorer, but they had no hope to stop him anyway. They should have let him do his things and try to stop perimeter players instead. That's how you beat great passers, you try to make them overthink and hope they won't be too agressive.

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