2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#481 » by Krodis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:19 pm

Yeah, the Clippers defensive scheme was quite frankly puzzling. I don't really even know what the idea was.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#482 » by ardee » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:48 pm

Goudelock wrote:I hate to interrupt this debate, but can someone explain to me why the Clippers kept doubling Jokic? I know he's a great scorer, but I'd rather see him go for 40 than have him have a 10 assists to open three point shooters and layup makers.


Bad coaching.

And I guess perhaps they were more confident that his supporting cast would freeze up in the moment than him.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#483 » by ardee » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:27 pm

therealbig3 wrote:I especially like the point earlier about how letting these series play out is important, because I was so hard on Giannis earlier and wanted to drop him out of my top 5...but then you see how Harden and Kawhi went out, and it's hard to justify right now that they should be ahead of Giannis. They did perform better than he did in the playoffs...but by how much? They certainly weren't untouchable themselves, they looked quite bad in their elimination games. Giannis was actually playing very well in game 4 before he got hurt. And he obviously blew them away in terms of his RS.

Only thing I'm really sold on is LeBron is 1, and AD and Jokic are top 5.

Also don't think we should be forgetting Doncic so quickly, although I don't see a good argument for him right now over Kawhi/Harden, who are battling for that #5 spot most likely.


This is pretty much my view. It's really impossible to make rankings right now which so much context left. I've changed my mind on Giannis vs Kawhi vs Harden vs Doncic multiple times already.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#484 » by dreamshake » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:28 pm

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#485 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:59 pm

GSP wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:#1 will be between Lebron and AD, slightly leaning AD at the moment but we'll see.

#3 Jokic seems like a pretty good bet too, I'm sure he'll be dominant against the Lakers too. Below that it gets more difficult.


Jokic wont be dominant against La.

Ad/Dwight are his toughest matchup in the league

Lakers can play big with those 2 and they have pests on the perimeter to disrupt his passing too

Denvers had a fun ride but its gonna come crashing hard


Oh Denver are getting swept most likely, but Jokic will perform. His individual scoring numbers might not be great, but he'll generate great team level offense for sure.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#486 » by limbo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:47 pm

[O'Connor] I was shocked Khris Middleton didn't get named to third team, then noticed he did indeed have more total points (82) than Simmons (61) and Westbrook (56). But his votes were split between G and F, so he didn't get the edge. Ballots should be positionless—it's a positionless game!


lol
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#487 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:43 pm

Weird thing:

I find myself thinking that Luka Doncic may be my OPOY but not necessarily a lock to even be Top 10 POY. Now, his defense is his weak area but I don't say this to trash his defense. I'm just trying to put together lists and this is what I'm seeing.

Also weird to think that Lukamania has been the story of the season - deservedly so to my eyes - but that I'm still not sure he's in my Top 10. I would chalk that up to there being a lot of great candidates for that tier that we could call "superstar-like, but not seriously POY-like. At the very top right now the competition seems weak, but a tier lower it's excellent.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#488 » by Dupp » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:59 pm

I think it’s definitely AD, Lebron or joker at this point. No matter what happens I do t think Tatum or Jimmy can make up the ground. They can finish really high though but I don’t see putting either first even if they win a titleZ
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#489 » by eminence » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:19 pm

Tatum/Butler(Bam?!?) would make my list if they won the title, but it'd be a first among equals 4th/5th type slot almost for sure.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#490 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:40 pm

oof
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#491 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:51 pm

Maine needs a basketball team asap
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#492 » by Senior » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:10 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Maine needs a basketball team asap

texas needs another basketball team tbh
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#493 » by therealbig3 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:42 am

I really wouldn't entertain Tatum or Butler in my top 5, unless they legit show something so far above anything they've done so far. Doncic was crystal clearly better than either this season, and he's out of my top 5 right now.

As hard as I was on Giannis, and I remember thinking I should put Butler over Giannis, the more I think about it, the more I see that while Butler is the Heat's best player, they have such a strong team with a bunch of individually great players. Butler doesn't have anywhere near the responsibilities of other stars. Same goes for Tatum.

I really don't see a case for either of them over LeBron/Davis/Jokic/Giannis/Kawhi/Harden/Luka. They were just better players.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#494 » by GSP » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:28 am

Yeah lets pump the brakes and separate team success from the individual. Players like Jimmy and Tatum shouldnt be sniffing the vicinity of top 5. Theres much better arguments theyre not top 10 altho id have Jimmy in mine
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#495 » by Joey Wheeler » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:47 am

Butler deserves serious consideration. He's been delivering big time down the stretch of tough playoff games, totally outplayed Giannis in their series as well. I think it's clear he's the main driving force behind Miami's unexpected success.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#496 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:11 am

I was debating today whether Jimmy was actually better than Bam. Actually, I'm having a hard time thinking about how Jimmy can be better at this point - Bam's defense is really freaky.

I don't think he is the "main" source of their success, at least not in the sense that say Luka is the "main" driving force of Dallas' success. I think adding Jimmy makes them a legit team, it doesn't make him as good as a superstar.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#497 » by limbo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:41 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:I was debating today whether Jimmy was actually better than Bam. Actually, I'm having a hard time thinking about how Jimmy can be better at this point - Bam's defense is really freaky.

I don't think he is the "main" source of their success, at least not in the sense that say Luka is the "main" driving force of Dallas' success. I think adding Jimmy makes them a legit team, it doesn't make him as good as a superstar.


I have Jimmy at like 8-10 spot and Bam like 12-15...

There's definitely not a huge difference between them, but ultimately Jimmy is comfortably more valuable on offense. Even though Bam is averaging more assists, Jimmy (along with Dragic) is the guy tasked to handle the ball, run the offense and break down the defenses. Feel like Bam gets a lot of assists when other players get the defensive pressure off him so he can make those home run passes to shooters/cutters. Kind of like Blake Griffin was known for. Not saying Bam shouldn't get credited for his playmaking, he's actually a very good passer, especially for a guy his age and coming from his position, but Jimmy puts more pressure on defenses even if it doesn't end up with the assists to the scorer a lot of the times. Which is also why Jimmy goes to the line more than 10 times per game, whole Bam goes there 5 times. Also, Jimmy has the option to be a more explosive scorer even though he feels like he doesn't really want/need to use it most of the time... And you can't really blame him, as the Heat have only dropped 1 game in the Playoffs so far

Defensively Bam is better, but Jimmy is elite as well.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#498 » by Ambrose » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:33 pm

If the season ended today I'd go:
LeBron
Giannis
Jokic
Harden
Luka

Kawhi/Davis would be next.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#499 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Weird thing:

I find myself thinking that Luka Doncic may be my OPOY but not necessarily a lock to even be Top 10 POY. Now, his defense is his weak area but I don't say this to trash his defense. I'm just trying to put together lists and this is what I'm seeing.

Also weird to think that Lukamania has been the story of the season - deservedly so to my eyes - but that I'm still not sure he's in my Top 10. I would chalk that up to there being a lot of great candidates for that tier that we could call "superstar-like, but not seriously POY-like. At the very top right now the competition seems weak, but a tier lower it's excellent.


I don't see a huge issue with Luka falling outside of your top 10. I probably couldn't find 10 guys ahead of him, but then again one of Tatum or Butler/BAM will be in the Finals which probably influences some to have one/two of them above him, heck some might already have all three. A deep Lakers run probably gets AD ahead of him, though again some may already have him there even if I wouldn't. Jokic is pretty clearly ahead of him at this point.

Where I struggle then is can he really be the best offensive player in the league and not a top 10 guy? He's bad defensively, but he showed in the playoffs when it matters he's definitely able to defend well enough where teams can't just hunt him out. In theory it just feels like you can't be the best offensive player, not be Trae Young bad defensively, and not be one of the ten best players in the league.

The justification of course is no playoff success, but then how much do we parse bad matchup, KP injury, etc...

And then of course is he really better offensively than all of Harden, Lebron, Jokic, Dame, someone else I'm leaving off?


Really interesting take. I can sort of see what you are saying, but then sort of can't. :lol: Look forward to more discussion from you on Luka moving forward.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#500 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Weird thing:

I find myself thinking that Luka Doncic may be my OPOY but not necessarily a lock to even be Top 10 POY. Now, his defense is his weak area but I don't say this to trash his defense. I'm just trying to put together lists and this is what I'm seeing.

Also weird to think that Lukamania has been the story of the season - deservedly so to my eyes - but that I'm still not sure he's in my Top 10. I would chalk that up to there being a lot of great candidates for that tier that we could call "superstar-like, but not seriously POY-like. At the very top right now the competition seems weak, but a tier lower it's excellent.


I don't see a huge issue with Luka falling outside of your top 10. I probably couldn't find 10 guys ahead of him, but then again one of Tatum or Butler/BAM will be in the Finals which probably influences some to have one/two of them above him, heck some might already have all three. A deep Lakers run probably gets AD ahead of him, though again some may already have him there even if I wouldn't. Jokic is pretty clearly ahead of him at this point.

Where I struggle then is can he really be the best offensive player in the league and not a top 10 guy? He's bad defensively, but he showed in the playoffs when it matters he's definitely able to defend well enough where teams can't just hunt him out. In theory it just feels like you can't be the best offensive player, not be Trae Young bad defensively, and not be one of the ten best players in the league.

The justification of course is no playoff success, but then how much do we parse bad matchup, KP injury, etc...

And then of course is he really better offensively than all of Harden, Lebron, Jokic, Dame, someone else I'm leaving off?


Really interesting take. I can sort of see what you are saying, but then sort of can't. :lol: Look forward to more discussion from you on Luka moving forward.


The apparent contradictions that bother you about what I said are also what bother me. It smacks of backwards-thinking. That doesn't mean it's wrong necessarily as the reality is that there are a bunch of guys who are highly debatable within the same tier, but it's definitely something to think through further.
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