2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#501 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:20 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:. It smacks of backwards-thinking.


For the record, while you and I have disagreed any number of times on players over the years, I would never think of you in those terms. I have immense respect for your process and the way you think through things, even if I question your conclusions at times. :D

And like I said I don't see any issues with a top that doesn't include him. I would have him somewhere in the back half myself. And leading the most efficient offense in raw numbers of all-time with a good, but hardly great offensive cast(admittedly a great offensive coach as well) means he obviously has to be in any serious discussions about OPOY.

It feels wrong in theory, but we aren't dealing with theory.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#502 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:06 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:. It smacks of backwards-thinking.


For the record, while you and I have disagreed any number of times on players over the years, I would never think of you in those terms. I have immense respect for your process and the way you think through things, even if I question your conclusions at times. :D

And like I said I don't see any issues with a top that doesn't include him. I would have him somewhere in the back half myself. And leading the most efficient offense in raw numbers of all-time with a good, but hardly great offensive cast(admittedly a great offensive coach as well) means he obviously has to be in any serious discussions about OPOY.

It feels wrong in theory, but we aren't dealing with theory.


I very much appreciate the kind words, and will say "right back atcha", but there's something interesting here.

So ElGee just made a podcast about "Backwards Basketball" which is very much about this sort of cart-before-the-horse type of issue, and we were chatting about it. The thing is, it's not realistic to NOT have a "backwards" part of your process because thorough analysis cannot be done solely in real time. Hence a Forward-Backward-Forward process is what I think one should aim for where you try to get better and better at the real-time forward at the beginning of your process, but you know if will never be perfect.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#503 » by O_6 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:18 pm

So I took a look at the RealGM POY Project year by year just to see how certain players were voted in the past. I saw that fpliii had a complete list of all the POY Shares through 2015. I wanted to see where things stood after the last 4 full seasons, so I went back and looked at the 2016-2019 RealGM POY shares of LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Kawhi, Davis, and Giannis as well as double checking Kobe/Duncan/KG/Dirk/Wade to see how much things have changed in 4 years.

Again, shout out to fpliii who I'm just piggybacking off of and I don't want this to be considered "official" because I don't have a master spreadsheet of all the votes, but here's the All-Time list that I came up with after tallying up the 2016-19 POY shares for the previous players that I mentioned above. I broke it down in tiers to make it easier on the eyes.

Code: Select all

1   Bill Russell   10.956
2   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   10.221
3   LeBron James   9.913
4   Michael Jordan   9.578

5   Wilt Chamberlain   7.818
6   Magic Johnson   7.114
7   Tim Duncan   6.248
8   Larry Bird   6.147
9   Shaquille O'Neal   5.910

10   Julius Erving   5.046
11   Karl Malone   4.649
12   Bob Pettit   4.466
13   Oscar Robertson   4.413
14   Kobe Bryant   4.380
15   Hakeem Olajuwon   4.380

16   Jerry West   3.795
17   Kevin Garnett   3.571
18   Moses Malone   3.478

19   Stephen Curry   2.957
20   Kevin Durant   2.945
21   Dwyane Wade   2.601
22   Chris Paul   2.557
23   David Robinson   2.431
24   Dirk Nowitzki   2.373

25   Elgin Baylor   2.223
26   Dolph Schayes   2.176
27   Walt Frazier   2.061
28   Charles Barkley   2.029
29   James Harden   1.926

30   George Gervin   1.582
31   Bob McAdoo   1.402
32   Bill Walton   1.373
33   Steve Nash   1.319

34   Kawhi Leonard   1.192
35   Rick Barry   1.187
36   Bob Cousy   1.115
37   Dwight Howard   1.104
38   Neil Johnston   1.095
39   Patrick Ewing   1.087
40   Paul Arizin   1.033

41   Giannis Antetokounmpo 0.860
42   Alonzo Mourning   0.843
43   Gary Payton   0.751
44   Russell Westbrook   0.729
45   Willis Reed   0.684
46   Artis Gilmore   0.681
47   John Havlicek   0.662
48   Dave Cowens   0.645
49   Sidney Moncrief   0.617
50   Tracy McGrady   0.613
51   Anthony Davis   0.612


Active Players
3. LeBron is pretty close to being the RealGM POY Project GOAT, he's not going to get it this year but will be set up to pass Russell next year
19. Curry and 20. Durant absolutely neck and neck at around the 20th spot all-time. Can they return from serious injuries in their 30s to make a run at the Top 15?
22. Chris Paul in the Top 25, with a chance at passing D-Wade after this year.
29. Harden pretty comfortably in the Top 30, looking likely to make the Top 25 soon.
34. Kawhi is in the Top 35, looking likely to make the Top 30 soon.
41. Giannis already a Top 45 player after last year, very likely to be Top 40 after this year.
44. Westbrook in the Top 45, but at this rate it seems doubtful that he ever moves up much from this spot
51. Davis is a virtual lock to make the Top 50 after this year, he even has a real chance to be in the Top 45 or even better


- LeBron is something else
- Durant is a little underrated based on the voting imo. I'm not even the biggest fan of him but I do think he deserved more votes in 2017-19 than he received, when he was clearly a Top 3 player in the sport. Curry is also another guy that probably should have more votes too. But I guess that's what happens when you join up and split votes.
- CP3 vs. Wade is one of the most interesting debates, pretty cool how they're neck and neck and will llkely end that way
- Harden is the guy who really took advantage of the Curry/Durant marriage in terms of POY shares, although obviously he would prefer the rings those two stopped him from winning. He still has work to do to catch CP3/Wade.
- Injuries, load management, limited role early in his career... yet Kawhi is still in an impressive spot on this list. What kind of longevity will he have?
- Giannis and Davis are the only active guys already on this list who are expected to get even better in the next couple of years, will be interesting to see where they stand on this list 3 years from now
- Hate him or Love him, Westbrook is a 1st ballot HOFer and I really hope he regains that pre-COVID rim attacking form to make another Top 5 run next year
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#504 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:36 pm

I'm pleasantly surprised Dr.J is in the top ten.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#505 » by 70sFan » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:31 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I'm pleasantly surprised Dr.J is in the top ten.

Me too, I don't think I'd rank him that high but sometimes I think that I underrate some of my favorite players. Julius is one of my favorites, but I'm trying not to put him too high and usually have him below guys like Dirk and Kobe - is it fair?

Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to be too objective in my rankings. I'm not nearly as high on Magic, Wilt, Julius, Oscar or Moses as some very knowledgeable posters here, even though I like them more than the rest of the top 20. Hell, I'm lower on Duncan (my favorite player ever) than some posters as well!
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#506 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:10 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Weird thing:

I find myself thinking that Luka Doncic may be my OPOY but not necessarily a lock to even be Top 10 POY. Now, his defense is his weak area but I don't say this to trash his defense. I'm just trying to put together lists and this is what I'm seeing.

Also weird to think that Lukamania has been the story of the season - deservedly so to my eyes - but that I'm still not sure he's in my Top 10. I would chalk that up to there being a lot of great candidates for that tier that we could call "superstar-like, but not seriously POY-like. At the very top right now the competition seems weak, but a tier lower it's excellent.

Considering butler for top 5 but luka as not even top 10 is wierd. I'm all for giving butler credit for what he does off the court, but I don't think that applies to players who are orders of magnitudes more impactful.

Do you see a case for embid over luka? Because embid frankly was much much better in much more difficult circumstances against the celtics than butler's been.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#507 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:12 am

O_6 wrote:So I took a look at the RealGM POY Project year by year just to see how certain players were voted in the past. I saw that fpliii had a complete list of all the POY Shares through 2015. I wanted to see where things stood after the last 4 full seasons, so I went back and looked at the 2016-2019 RealGM POY shares of LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Kawhi, Davis, and Giannis as well as double checking Kobe/Duncan/KG/Dirk/Wade to see how much things have changed in 4 years.

Again, shout out to fpliii who I'm just piggybacking off of and I don't want this to be considered "official" because I don't have a master spreadsheet of all the votes, but here's the All-Time list that I came up with after tallying up the 2016-19 POY shares for the previous players that I mentioned above. I broke it down in tiers to make it easier on the eyes.

Code: Select all

1   Bill Russell   10.956
2   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   10.221
3   LeBron James   9.913
4   Michael Jordan   9.578

5   Wilt Chamberlain   7.818
6   Magic Johnson   7.114
7   Tim Duncan   6.248
8   Larry Bird   6.147
9   Shaquille O'Neal   5.910

10   Julius Erving   5.046
11   Karl Malone   4.649
12   Bob Pettit   4.466
13   Oscar Robertson   4.413
14   Kobe Bryant   4.380
15   Hakeem Olajuwon   4.380

16   Jerry West   3.795
17   Kevin Garnett   3.571
18   Moses Malone   3.478

19   Stephen Curry   2.957
20   Kevin Durant   2.945
21   Dwyane Wade   2.601
22   Chris Paul   2.557
23   David Robinson   2.431
24   Dirk Nowitzki   2.373

25   Elgin Baylor   2.223
26   Dolph Schayes   2.176
27   Walt Frazier   2.061
28   Charles Barkley   2.029
29   James Harden   1.926

30   George Gervin   1.582
31   Bob McAdoo   1.402
32   Bill Walton   1.373
33   Steve Nash   1.319

34   Kawhi Leonard   1.192
35   Rick Barry   1.187
36   Bob Cousy   1.115
37   Dwight Howard   1.104
38   Neil Johnston   1.095
39   Patrick Ewing   1.087
40   Paul Arizin   1.033

41   Giannis Antetokounmpo 0.860
42   Alonzo Mourning   0.843
43   Gary Payton   0.751
44   Russell Westbrook   0.729
45   Willis Reed   0.684
46   Artis Gilmore   0.681
47   John Havlicek   0.662
48   Dave Cowens   0.645
49   Sidney Moncrief   0.617
50   Tracy McGrady   0.613
51   Anthony Davis   0.612


Active Players
3. LeBron is pretty close to being the RealGM POY Project GOAT, he's probably not going to get it this year but there is a chance if he has two dominant rounds to lead LA to a title.
19. Curry and 20. Durant absolutely neck and neck at around the 20th spot all-time. Can they return from serious injuries in their 30s to make a run at the Top 15?
22. Chris Paul in the Top 25, with a chance at passing D-Wade after this year.
29. Harden pretty comfortably in the Top 30, looking likely to make the Top 25 soon.
34. Kawhi is in the Top 35, looking likely to make the Top 30 soon.
41. Giannis already a Top 45 player after last year, very likely to be Top 40 after this year.
44. Westbrook in the Top 45, but at this rate it seems doubtful that he ever moves up much from this spot
51. Davis is a virtual lock to make the Top 50 after this year, he even has a real chance to be in the Top 45 or even better


- LeBron is something else
- Durant is a little underrated based on the voting imo. I'm not even the biggest fan of him but I do think he deserved more votes in 2017-19 than he received, when he was clearly a Top 3 player in the sport. Curry is also another guy that probably should have more votes too. But I guess that's what happens when you join up and split votes.
- CP3 vs. Wade is one of the most interesting debates, pretty cool how they're neck and neck and will llkely end that way
- Harden is the guy who really took advantage of the Curry/Durant marriage in terms of POY shares, although obviously he would prefer the rings those two stopped him from winning. He still has work to do to catch CP3/Wade.
- Injuries, load management, limited role early in his career... yet Kawhi is still in an impressive spot on this list. What kind of longevity will he have?
- Giannis and Davis are the only active guys already on this list who are expected to get even better in the next couple of years, will be interesting to see where they stand on this list 3 years from now
- Hate him or Love him, Westbrook is a 1st ballot HOFer and I really hope he regains that pre-COVID rim attacking form to make another Top 5 run next year

Would a unanimous poy vote give lebron #1? I feel there's a decent chance ad could get some votes, but its not ridiuclous to see lebron getting all the votes.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#508 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:23 am

ATM its davis. Subject to change, but Davis has been the best player in the playoffs so far, not that close really.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#509 » by Heej » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:25 am

freethedevil wrote:ATM its davis. Subject to change, but Davis has been the best player in the playoffs so far, not that close really.

He's definitely the best player Brons played with considering how he's been during this run
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#510 » by eminence » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:54 am

Maybe just me, but I'd still have LeBron pretty clearly ahead of AD even for a playoff only Lakers hierarchy.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#511 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:58 am

freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Weird thing:

I find myself thinking that Luka Doncic may be my OPOY but not necessarily a lock to even be Top 10 POY. Now, his defense is his weak area but I don't say this to trash his defense. I'm just trying to put together lists and this is what I'm seeing.

Also weird to think that Lukamania has been the story of the season - deservedly so to my eyes - but that I'm still not sure he's in my Top 10. I would chalk that up to there being a lot of great candidates for that tier that we could call "superstar-like, but not seriously POY-like. At the very top right now the competition seems weak, but a tier lower it's excellent.

Considering butler for top 5 but luka as not even top 10 is wierd. I'm all for giving butler credit for what he does off the court, but I don't think that applies to players who are orders of magnitudes more impactful.

Do you see a case for embid over luka? Because embid frankly was much much better in much more difficult circumstances against the celtics than butler's been.


I don't think I mentioned Butler here, did I?

So you know, at this point my most likely Top 5 would these guys (in alphabetical order):

Giannis Antetokoumpo
Anthony Davis
LeBron James
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard

I think it most likely that Doncic and Butler both make my Top 10. And no, Embiid is not a Top 10 candidate for me.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#512 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:00 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Weird thing:

I find myself thinking that Luka Doncic may be my OPOY but not necessarily a lock to even be Top 10 POY. Now, his defense is his weak area but I don't say this to trash his defense. I'm just trying to put together lists and this is what I'm seeing.

Also weird to think that Lukamania has been the story of the season - deservedly so to my eyes - but that I'm still not sure he's in my Top 10. I would chalk that up to there being a lot of great candidates for that tier that we could call "superstar-like, but not seriously POY-like. At the very top right now the competition seems weak, but a tier lower it's excellent.

Considering butler for top 5 but luka as not even top 10 is wierd. I'm all for giving butler credit for what he does off the court, but I don't think that applies to players who are orders of magnitudes more impactful.

Do you see a case for embid over luka? Because embid frankly was much much better in much more difficult circumstances against the celtics than butler's been.


I don't think I mentioned Butler here, did I?

So you know, at this point my most likely Top 5 would these guys (in alphabetical order):

Giannis Antetokoumpo
Anthony Davis
LeBron James
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard

I think it most likely that Doncic and Butler both make my Top 10. And no, Embiid is not a Top 10 candidate for me.

I thought you said you were considering moving butler to top 5 earlier in the thread?


If Luka isn't a lock, then which 5 players do you see potentially passing him? Especially considering you're leaving out embid?

Also curious your reasoning for rating butler over embid. It seems pretty obiovus to me embid is a vastly more valuable player, both last playoffs and these.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#513 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:00 am

eminence wrote:Maybe just me, but I'd still have LeBron pretty clearly ahead of AD even for a playoff only Lakers hierarchy.


This is a thing for me too. The fact that this is so clearly LeBron's team, and guys like Rondo and Howard are thriving with the understand that they are playing how LeBron says...and the fact LeBron's seemed to be the more impactful guy all year makes it really hard to put AD ahead of him. But AD is playing exquisitely, and I'll certainly ask myself the question when all is said and done.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#514 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:05 am

freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Considering butler for top 5 but luka as not even top 10 is wierd. I'm all for giving butler credit for what he does off the court, but I don't think that applies to players who are orders of magnitudes more impactful.

Do you see a case for embid over luka? Because embid frankly was much much better in much more difficult circumstances against the celtics than butler's been.


I don't think I mentioned Butler here, did I?

So you know, at this point my most likely Top 5 would these guys (in alphabetical order):

Giannis Antetokoumpo
Anthony Davis
LeBron James
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard

I think it most likely that Doncic and Butler both make my Top 10. And no, Embiid is not a Top 10 candidate for me.

I thought you said you were considering moving butler to top 5 earlier in the thread?


If Luka isn't a lock, then which 5 players do you see potentially passing him? Especially considering you're leaving out embid?


That's entirely possible.

The truth is I'm seeing the Heat more and more as an ensemble affair and find myself wondering at times if he's the 3rd best player on his own team. (But still haven't seriously thought about putting Bam ahead of him really, though I'd love to see people argue it.)

Okay so I've been trying to refrain from writing anything down that might bias me after the fact, but I don't want to be annoyingly coy. I'm still refraining from rankings within the Top 5 because so much depends on how I end up seeing the teams that are still playing, but after my top 5 list above, my next 5 - in alphabetical order - at this time are:

Jimmy Butler
Luka Doncic
James Harden
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul

The guy who is currently outside looking in is Jayson Tatum.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#515 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:16 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I don't think I mentioned Butler here, did I?

So you know, at this point my most likely Top 5 would these guys (in alphabetical order):

Giannis Antetokoumpo
Anthony Davis
LeBron James
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard

I think it most likely that Doncic and Butler both make my Top 10. And no, Embiid is not a Top 10 candidate for me.

I thought you said you were considering moving butler to top 5 earlier in the thread?


If Luka isn't a lock, then which 5 players do you see potentially passing him? Especially considering you're leaving out embid?


That's entirely possible.

The truth is I'm seeing the Heat more and more as an ensemble affair and find myself wondering at times if he's the 3rd best player on his own team. (But still haven't seriously thought about putting Bam ahead of him really, though I'd love to see people argue it.)

Okay so I've been trying to refrain from writing anything down that might bias me after the fact, but I don't want to be annoyingly coy. I'm still refraining from rankings within the Top 5 because so much depends on how I end up seeing the teams that are still playing, but after my top 5 list above, my next 5 - in alphabetical order - at this time are:

Jimmy Butler
Luka Doncic
James Harden
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul

The guy who is currently outside looking in is Jayson Tatum.

Don't know if you saw my edit, but I'd like to hear reasoning for butler>embid given

A. Embid has aguably played better in his 4 game loss to the celtics on the offensive end alone than butler's managed against the same opponent
B. Embid far more valuable to his team than butler is to his on the court.
C. Embid, given how he's performed with a total lack of spacing and playmaking, is probably a lot less reliant on teammates than butler is.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#516 » by Dupp » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:22 am

Watching them play I actually think lebron is still the better player but Davis is definitely playing better.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#517 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:37 am

freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:I thought you said you were considering moving butler to top 5 earlier in the thread?


If Luka isn't a lock, then which 5 players do you see potentially passing him? Especially considering you're leaving out embid?


That's entirely possible.

The truth is I'm seeing the Heat more and more as an ensemble affair and find myself wondering at times if he's the 3rd best player on his own team. (But still haven't seriously thought about putting Bam ahead of him really, though I'd love to see people argue it.)

Okay so I've been trying to refrain from writing anything down that might bias me after the fact, but I don't want to be annoyingly coy. I'm still refraining from rankings within the Top 5 because so much depends on how I end up seeing the teams that are still playing, but after my top 5 list above, my next 5 - in alphabetical order - at this time are:

Jimmy Butler
Luka Doncic
James Harden
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul

The guy who is currently outside looking in is Jayson Tatum.

Don't know if you saw my edit, but I'd like to hear reasoning for butler>embid given

A. Embid has aguably played better in his 4 game loss to the celtics on the offensive end alone than butler's managed against the same opponent
B. Embid far more valuable to his team than butler is to his on the court.
C. Embid, given how he's performed with a total lack of spacing and playmaking, is probably a lot less reliant on teammates than butler is.


Butler is at the epicenter of a team culture that he helped galvanized into berserker mode, Embiid is on a team he'd supposed to be leading but looks lost.

ftr, I ranked Embiid ahead of Butler last year but had mixed feelings about it as I felt that Butler was essential to why the team felt like they could beat anybody they happened to match up against.
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Heej
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#518 » by Heej » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:41 am

Dupp wrote:Watching them play I actually think lebron is still the better player but Davis is definitely playing better.

This is where I'm at too. LeBron is definitely the straw that stirs the drink but AD is just hoopin night in and night out. LeBron plays until the Lakers put their opponents at arm's length, AD plays until the buzzer ends.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#519 » by Baski » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:49 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:I was debating today whether Jimmy was actually better than Bam. Actually, I'm having a hard time thinking about how Jimmy can be better at this point - Bam's defense is really freaky.

I don't think he is the "main" source of their success, at least not in the sense that say Luka is the "main" driving force of Dallas' success. I think adding Jimmy makes them a legit team, it doesn't make him as good as a superstar.

Me too. From the Bucks series to this one, I just get so wowed by Bam's consistent supply of high IQ plays, great passes, and eye popping defensive rotations. The defense especially looks bizarrely good. Sort of like the opponents offensive IQ drops to near zero when he's nearby. Like sometimes I see him stick to Kemba up top, then quickly switch onto Tatum to force him to pass it, and get back at the rim to contest a Brown layup attempt. But the scary thing is somehow Brown would sort of see Bam and then still try to hit some awkward layup. Feels like being in Bam's vicinity just makes you trash on offense. Dude made Kemba fumble his signature crossover-stepback move that he hits on basically everybody and I lold so hard.

I haven't paid much attention to the rankings if there have been any, but where does Bam's passing rank among bigs in the league? Top 3? He's freaking great there.
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Re: 2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#520 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:39 pm

Heej wrote:
Dupp wrote:Watching them play I actually think lebron is still the better player but Davis is definitely playing better.

This is where I'm at too. LeBron is definitely the straw that stirs the drink but AD is just hoopin night in and night out. LeBron plays until the Lakers put their opponents at arm's length, AD plays until the buzzer ends.


AD is the milk and Lebrons the cinnamon toast crunch

That sugar milk when u add that cereal is wild
iggymcfrack wrote: I have Bird #19 and Kobe #20 on my all-time list and both guys will probably get passed by Jokic by the end of this season.


^^^^ posted January 8 2023 :banghead: :banghead:

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