2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[MisterHibachi]

I know Murray won't make many top 5 ballots, but I'm wondering how he compares to other ATG guard runs. Was he comparable to or better than 2016 Kyrie? 2015 Curry?

Thoughts?

[Doctor MJ]

Re: Since when Rondo known for not showing up in the playoffs? It's not about the playoffs, it's about how Rondo is every day. Rondo has clearly proven to be a guy who will blow off his job if he doesn't see the context around him as worthwhile. Yes, he tends to be better in the playoffs, that's part of the same trend.

Do you not think Rondo is clearly playing harder and better than he did in the regular season this year? If so I don't see what makes this year different from the others, Rondo clearly blew off his job in the regular season too. Hell Rondo played with LeBron last year too where was this narrative then?

I'm just going to hit this point as I think it's clear that what our two perspectives are and it just makes sense to agree to disagree.

I think you've got a point that Rondo is focused more than in the regular season this year. I think the fact that Rondo only gets to play on games with high stakes when he's with a great team is part of what I'm talking about, and LeBron is the primary reason why the Lakers are playing high stakes.

Re: what about last year? Last year LeBron didn't set a great example, which is something I've been very critical of.

[No-more-rings]

I know Murray won't make many top 5 ballots, but I'm wondering how he compares to other ATG guard runs. Was he comparable to or better than 2016 Kyrie? 2015 Curry?

Thoughts?

I think it's hard to evaluate given the way the bubble effected some players, and he in particular played way above his regular season standard so it's hard to say whether it's fluky or if this is what he is as a player now. Despite the excellent scoring numbers, i don't think his offensive impact was Curry level. I do think it can maybe be compared to Ray Allen's 01 playoff run or something like that.

[poopdamoop]

Yeah calling DeAndre Jordan any kind of leader is stunning to me. Dude nearly gave Luka a concussion trying to grab rebounds, and I don't recall much coming out about him being a voice in the locker room.

Because you don't pay attention to the Knicks or Nets at all but good job exposing how much attention you pay to the NBA before commenting on it.

You got me, I didn't follow the Knicks closely last year because I value my time. That being said, you could find the same standard platitudes that DAJ is getting with LeBron, but for some reasons Jordan is now a veteran leader and Lebron just shows up to work?

[Doctor MJ]

I know Murray won't make many top 5 ballots, but I'm wondering how he compares to other ATG guard runs. Was he comparable to or better than 2016 Kyrie? 2015 Curry?

Thoughts?

I don't have an immediate answer but it's food for thought.

I just ran a query for a) guards, b) who played at least 500 minutes, shooting at least 60% TS, sorted by PPG:

https://stathead.com/tiny/rO6jR

That list comes out as:

1. Curry '15
2. Curry '19
3. Curry '17
4. Harden '15
5. Murray '20

I think that tells us a thing. Basically Murray played at a level efficient volume scoring that you basically didn't expect to see in earlier eras and I think you really can make an argument among modern score-first guards, he had a better run than any not named Curry or Harden.

It's worth noting that in these very playoffs Lillard & Mitchell would have qualified with more games and I don't so much think that makes Murray's play "less real" so much as I think that teams are recognizing that guys can do things we didn't used to realize they could do.

Kyrie's not on the list, and while I'll acknowledge he wasn't terribly far away from making it efficiency-wise, I don't think he's someone actually capable of re-shaping his game toward efficiency the way these other guys do. If he ever makes it on the list, it will probably be because KD's presence makes things even easier for him than LeBron did.

Would I rate Murray's performance this post-season over Kyrie's best? Yeah, I think so.
As good as Curry? Nah.

[eminence]

I think that tells us a thing. Basically Murray played at a level efficient volume scoring that you basically didn't expect to see in earlier eras and I think you really can make an argument among modern score-first guards, he had a better run than any not named Curry or Harden.

Did you mean to have it be a 2000 to present search?

[Doctor MJ]

I think that tells us a thing. Basically Murray played at a level efficient volume scoring that you basically didn't expect to see in earlier eras and I think you really can make an argument among modern score-first guards, he had a better run than any not named Curry or Harden.

Did you mean to have it be a 2000 to present search?

Ah, actually yes I did and should have mentioned that. Definitely not looking to knock Jordan or Magic with my statement.

[eminence]

I think that tells us a thing. Basically Murray played at a level efficient volume scoring that you basically didn't expect to see in earlier eras and I think you really can make an argument among modern score-first guards, he had a better run than any not named Curry or Harden.

Did you mean to have it be a 2000 to present search?

Ah, actually yes I did and should have mentioned that. Definitely not looking to knock Jordan or Magic with my statement.

No worries, I was just kinda curious who other than MJ would qualify, but yeah, it really was an impressive run from Murray, I'm very curious to see what he looks like next season.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I know Murray won't make many top 5 ballots, but I'm wondering how he compares to other ATG guard runs. Was he comparable to or better than 2016 Kyrie? 2015 Curry?

Thoughts?

I don't have an immediate answer but it's food for thought.

I just ran a query for a) guards, b) who played at least 500 minutes, shooting at least 60% TS, sorted by PPG:

https://stathead.com/tiny/rO6jR

That list comes out as:

1. Curry '15
2. Curry '19
3. Curry '17
4. Harden '15
5. Murray '20

I think that tells us a thing. Basically Murray played at a level efficient volume scoring that you basically didn't expect to see in earlier eras and I think you really can make an argument among modern score-first guards, he had a better run than any not named Curry or Harden.

It's worth noting that in these very playoffs Lillard & Mitchell would have qualified with more games and I don't so much think that makes Murray's play "less real" so much as I think that teams are recognizing that guys can do things we didn't used to realize they could do.

Kyrie's not on the list, and while I'll acknowledge he wasn't terribly far away from making it efficiency-wise, I don't think he's someone actually capable of re-shaping his game toward efficiency the way these other guys do. If he ever makes it on the list, it will probably be because KD's presence makes things even easier for him than LeBron did.

Would I rate Murray's performance this post-season over Kyrie's best? Yeah, I think so.
As good as Curry? Nah.

TS avg was 54.1 in 2016 vs 56.5 in 2020

Granted his effeciency in 2017 with spacing wasnt much better but thats almost fully cuz he went from 44% from three to 38%

Kyrie isnt an ineffecient scorer its more so he can be too selfish at times. I dont get the reshape his game bit, murrays effeciency is almost completely because he randomly became insane from three during the bubble.

Kyrie was trash in 2019 but lets see one more run to make a judgement on him, and aee if its durant helping him vs him being good.

On the people doing things they didnt know, i mean i dont really get that lol, outside of the fact curry has made pullup three point shooting much more of a thing offenses are okay with which has opened up the pick and roll more

I think murray vs kyrie in terms of runs is interesting, murray was a good playmaker and incredible at stringing the pick and roll

[Doctor MJ]

TS avg was 54.1 in 2016 vs 56.5 in 2020

Which means you might say that the average NBA player has become 2.4% smarter with adaptation while Kyrie has literally learned nothing.

Granted his effeciency in 2017 with spacing wasnt much better but thats almost fully cuz he went from 44% from three to 38%

Kyrie isnt an ineffecient scorer its more so he can be too selfish at times. I dont get the reshape his game bit, murrays effeciency is almost completely because he randomly became insane from three during the bubble.

Kyrie was trash in 2019 but lets see one more run to make a judgement on him, and aee if its durant helping him vs him being good.

On the people doing things they didnt know, i mean i dont really get that lol, outside of the fact curry has made pullup three point shooting much more of a thing offenses are okay with which has opened up the pick and roll more

I think murray vs kyrie in terms of runs is interesting, murray was a good playmaker and incredible at stringing the pick and roll

Re: Random 3 hotness is not "figuring things out". Very true. We'll see what happens with Murray, but what we are seeing is that guys are being given the greenlight to gun with shots they weren't before, because people are making enough of those shots to make it worthwhile. And yes, Curry is the spearhead of this movement.

[Cavsfansince84]

Did you mean to have it be a 2000 to present search?

Ah, actually yes I did and should have mentioned that. Definitely not looking to knock Jordan or Magic with my statement.

No worries, I was just kinda curious who other than MJ would qualify, but yeah, it really was an impressive run from Murray, I'm very curious to see what he looks like next season.

MJ was only at or above 60% twice along with a .598 run but obviously his volume was also absurdly high in his playoff runs.
Gervin hit 60% once but was short of 500 minutes. Drexler also almost did it once in 95(.587 in 850 minutes).

[MyUniBroDavis]

TS avg was 54.1 in 2016 vs 56.5 in 2020

Which means you might say that the average NBA player has become 2.4% smarter with adaptation while Kyrie has literally learned nothing.

Granted his effeciency in 2017 with spacing wasnt much better but thats almost fully cuz he went from 44% from three to 38%

Kyrie isnt an ineffecient scorer its more so he can be too selfish at times. I dont get the reshape his game bit, murrays effeciency is almost completely because he randomly became insane from three during the bubble.

Kyrie was trash in 2019 but lets see one more run to make a judgement on him, and aee if its durant helping him vs him being good.

On the people doing things they didnt know, i mean i dont really get that lol, outside of the fact curry has made pullup three point shooting much more of a thing offenses are okay with which has opened up the pick and roll more

I think murray vs kyrie in terms of runs is interesting, murray was a good playmaker and incredible at stringing the pick and roll

Re: Random 3 hotness is not "figuring things out". Very true. We'll see what happens with Murray, but what we are seeing is that guys are being given the greenlight to gun with shots they weren't before, because people are making enough of those shots to make it worthwhile. And yes, Curry is the spearhead of this movement.

Agree on the second point, on the TS thats almost completely because of spacing going up gradually leading to easier driving lanes. Some of it is more three point shooting in general but in terms of star iso scoring its pretty much 99% of it is spacing going up.

[E-Balla]

Lol at threat of losing your only income. This isn’t like you or me losing a job Dwight is rich as ****. Also you sure it’s dwights only income?

We don't have the expenses he has either. It's not like we don't see plenty of players going broke. And it's definitely his primary means of income, or it was before he went from making $20 mil to being forced to take the vet min just to have a shot at being on a team.

[E-Balla]

Got it. DeAndre was never a leader before by your own admission, magically became one for a few months in NY and the rest of us are all ignorant doofuses. Good chat.

Meanwhile Lebron with a 15 year track record as a leader obviously wasn't having any impact at all on another guy with a really poor track record pre-Lebron

Just want to make sure I've got this. After all I don't actually pay attention to the Association or know how to use google. /sarcasm

It's not magic. These are grown ass men. Human beings. People with complex personalities and dynamics with their coworkers and teams. Plenty of people I know couldn't lead a bunch of grown men but could easily lead a bunch of guys too young to drink/a group of immature grown men. I had 3 years experience in my field and couldn't have ever led a team of my coworkers but I could lead the interns pretty well and contribute to a team of people that had more experience.

Why is that such a hard concept to grasp here?

[Dupp]

Lol at threat of losing your only income. This isn’t like you or me losing a job Dwight is rich as ****. Also you sure it’s dwights only income?

We don't have the expenses he has either. It's not like we don't see plenty of players going broke. And it's definitely his primary means of income, or it was before he went from making $20 mil to being forced to take the vet min just to have a shot at being on a team.

If he wanted too he could make more money in another league. He wants an nba title

[E-Balla]

Re: Since when Rondo known for not showing up in the playoffs? It's not about the playoffs, it's about how Rondo is every day. Rondo has clearly proven to be a guy who will blow off his job if he doesn't see the context around him as worthwhile. Yes, he tends to be better in the playoffs, that's part of the same trend.

Do you not think Rondo is clearly playing harder and better than he did in the regular season this year? If so I don't see what makes this year different from the others, Rondo clearly blew off his job in the regular season too. Hell Rondo played with LeBron last year too where was this narrative then?

I'm just going to hit this point as I think it's clear that what our two perspectives are and it just makes sense to agree to disagree.

I think you've got a point that Rondo is focused more than in the regular season this year. I think the fact that Rondo only gets to play on games with high stakes when he's with a great team is part of what I'm talking about, and LeBron is the primary reason why the Lakers are playing high stakes.

Re: what about last year? Last year LeBron didn't set a great example, which is something I've been very critical of.

In that LeBron makes them contenders and all the Lakers are brought in to win a ring (and they wouldn't win without LeBron), sure he contributes to their better play and cohesion. I misread your initial post if that's what you meant.

[E-Balla]

Lol at threat of losing your only income. This isn’t like you or me losing a job Dwight is rich as ****. Also you sure it’s dwights only income?

We don't have the expenses he has either. It's not like we don't see plenty of players going broke. And it's definitely his primary means of income, or it was before he went from making $20 mil to being forced to take the vet min just to have a shot at being on a team.

If he wanted too he could make more money in another league. He wants an nba title

"Or he can leave his home country where his children live including his child who's mother recently passed."

Everyone doesn't want to play in Europe.

And of course he wants a ring. He always has.

[E-Balla]

Yeah calling DeAndre Jordan any kind of leader is stunning to me. Dude nearly gave Luka a concussion trying to grab rebounds, and I don't recall much coming out about him being a voice in the locker room.

Because you don't pay attention to the Knicks or Nets at all but good job exposing how much attention you pay to the NBA before commenting on it.

You got me, I didn't follow the Knicks closely last year because I value my time. That being said, you could find the same standard platitudes that DAJ is getting with LeBron, but for some reasons Jordan is now a veteran leader and Lebron just shows up to work?

No I said he was a veteran leader in that situation but I mainly said that to show he was a consummate pro, while in LA he was immature the same way Dwight probably would've if he wasn't going to get signed by a contender where he'd be just another guy on the team.

[Doctor MJ]

So looking at some of the non-glamour awards, I find myself thinking like this:

MIP: Bam Adebayo
6MOY: Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro, depending on philosophy as it relates to Dragic
COY: Erik Spoelstra
EOY: Pat Riley

Interesting pattern. Thoughts?

Also, finding myself all mixed up relating to DPOY, wonder what y'all are thinking.

[Jordan Syndrome]

So looking at some of the non-glamour awards, I find myself thinking like this:

MIP: Bam Adebayo
6MOY: Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro, depending on philosophy as it relates to Dragic
COY: Erik Spoelstra
EOY: Pat Riley

Interesting pattern. Thoughts?

Also, finding myself all mixed up relating to DPOY, wonder what y'all are thinking.

I don’t like to give MIP to young players in their first 3 seasons but there are a handful of players who made huge jumps in their 4th year, including Sabonis, Murray and Mitchell but I don't think it is fair to leave Bam out of it because of 1 season.

MIP: Duncan Robinson

Robinson is already 26.5 years old and at the age of 24 was not even in the league. He went from an end of bench player in 2019 to one of the most important players on a title team.

6MOY: Dennis Schroeder

The other contenders for me were Jordan Clarkson, Goran Dragic and Tyler Herro. I thought it was more impressive for Schroeder to co-exist with two other "PGs" in Paul and SGA.

COY: Nick Nurse

Spoelstra is the only coach I seriously considered for this award aside from Nurse. What Nurse did with a less talented roster in comparison to Spoelstra is just as impressive, if not a bit more. Nurse went zone against Boston and it worked wonders and Spoelstra integrated it with a better roster to better results, but the blue print was made by Nurse.

EOY: Rob Pelinka

I mean the guy traded some middling prospects for Anthony freaking Davis. I like what Riley did as well as Presti. Those 3 are the clear cut top 3 for me. I was never a fan of the roster constructed of the Clippers and the failure highlighted a weakness I personally thought talent would over come.