Pau Gasol vs Nikola Jokic

[No-more-rings]

There’s no doubt that when you’re not the lead scorer/playmaker on your team you can focus more on other areas. Some guys like Chris Paul are able to thrive in a secondary role while some guys like Westbrook don’t have diverse enough skill sets to do anything but what they’re used to. Pau to me is more of aCP3 in his ability to be a chameleon while Jokic is more of a Westbrook.

Do you really think playing next to Kobe is going to let Jokic guards Howard the way Pau did? Do you think it will let him crash the glass like Pau did? That versatility, as Jaivl said, is a main reason Gasol has also been one of the best ever in international tournaments while Jokic has struggled.

Being an alpha masters a lot but it doesn’t mean every alpha has the skills to be a historically good beta.

I had a point by point response typed out, but it's probably not really necessary. I think when it just comes down to it, you can build a legit contending team with Jokic as the main guy, i can't say the same for Pau. And he's a great 2nd option yeah, but how many Kobe Bryants are you going to be able to pair him up with in his career? It's just like i'm not going to take Manu over James Harden since he's better suited for a 2nd option, better defender and plays better in international leagues. It's not quite the same, but how different is the comparison?

You could easily make a case for peak Manu>2014 James Harden who was also 24 years old on that basis.

Sure, but that's only because he stunk it up in the playoffs.

[70sFan]

I had a point by point response typed out, but it's probably not really necessary. I think when it just comes down to it, you can build a legit contending team with Jokic as the main guy, i can't say the same for Pau. And he's a great 2nd option yeah, but how many Kobe Bryants are you going to be able to pair him up with in his career? It's just like i'm not going to take Manu over James Harden since he's better suited for a 2nd option, better defender and plays better in international leagues. It's not quite the same, but how different is the comparison?

Pau could do everything Jokic does in this Denver system, and more. What does Jokic do better than Pau really?

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

Is he better shooter though? When Gasol started shooting threes, he was amazing at that. It's more era thing than skills difference, Jokic is not that great as a three point shooter.

[Gooner]

I had a point by point response typed out, but it's probably not really necessary. I think when it just comes down to it, you can build a legit contending team with Jokic as the main guy, i can't say the same for Pau. And he's a great 2nd option yeah, but how many Kobe Bryants are you going to be able to pair him up with in his career? It's just like i'm not going to take Manu over James Harden since he's better suited for a 2nd option, better defender and plays better in international leagues. It's not quite the same, but how different is the comparison?

Pau could do everything Jokic does in this Denver system, and more. What does Jokic do better than Pau really?

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

That's debatable, his team is just using him more as a playmaker, like all bigs today. Assists are easier to get in general today with so many three pointers. When Gasol was still at the end of his prime in 2015-2016, the league average was 24 threes, now it's 32. That's how much the league has changed in only 5 years, and it has inflated the stats of all these players. And Jokic is not a better shooter than Pau, his 3 point percentage is lower.

[Gooner]

Pau could do everything Jokic does in this Denver system, and more. What does Jokic do better than Pau really?

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

Is he better shooter though? When Gasol started shooting threes, he was amazing at that. It's more era thing than skills difference, Jokic is not that great as a three point shooter.

It's the same with passing, era difference more than anything else. Both of them are elite big men passers.

[Dr Spaceman]

I had a point by point response typed out, but it's probably not really necessary. I think when it just comes down to it, you can build a legit contending team with Jokic as the main guy, i can't say the same for Pau. And he's a great 2nd option yeah, but how many Kobe Bryants are you going to be able to pair him up with in his career? It's just like i'm not going to take Manu over James Harden since he's better suited for a 2nd option, better defender and plays better in international leagues. It's not quite the same, but how different is the comparison?

You could easily make a case for peak Manu>2014 James Harden who was also 24 years old on that basis.

Sure, but that's only because he stunk it up in the playoffs.

Not just because of the playoffs for me.

Manu’s durability issues are the main reasonhe’d be behind someone like Harden. I think a better point of comparison would be Paul George who has an amazing all around game for a wing but isn’t quite on the level of the #1 scorers.

[70sFan]

Quick point - different era, but how is Pau that much better as an offensive rebounder? Nothing indicates that; Nikola is good offensive rebounder and Gasol peaked in LA as "only" good, he wasn't all-timer in that aspect.

Also, for those who questions Pau as the first option - what Joker accomplished so far to call him better in that aspect? He has better team than Gasol in Grizzlies and he lost in second round against weak Blazers team. Not his fault, but usually Gasol lost not because of him either.

[Gooner]

Quick point - different era, but how is Pau that much better as an offensive rebounder? Nothing indicates that; Nikola is good offensive rebounder and Gasol peaked in LA as "only" good, he wasn't all-timer in that aspect.

Also, for those who questions Pau as the first option - what Joker accomplished so far to call him better in that aspect? He has better team than Gasol in Grizzlies and he lost in second round against weak Blazers team. Not his fault, but usually Gasol lost not because of him either.

I'm not so much focused on players being the first option in general, it's all about impact for me. Look at Gasol's impact when he came to LA, he transformed that team. I'm not gonna penalise him for not being the best player on the team, he played with the guy named Kobe Bryant.

[70sFan]

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

Is he better shooter though? When Gasol started shooting threes, he was amazing at that. It's more era thing than skills difference, Jokic is not that great as a three point shooter.

It's the same with passing, era difference more than anything else. Both of them are elite big men passers.

No, it's not only era difference. Pau was really good passing bigman, but Jokic is one of the best ever. Sure, spacing helps but Jokic has better vision than Pau, better execution and better consistency as a passer. Role and era is not enough to overcome that gap. I'm far from modern=better, there were some bigs comparable to Jokic in terms of pure passing skills but Pau is not one of them.

"Both of them are elite big men passers" is not a good argument. Gervin and Jordan are both elite perimeter scorer (and Gervin played in tougher era to score) but it doesn't mean they are the same level.

[70sFan]

Quick point - different era, but how is Pau that much better as an offensive rebounder? Nothing indicates that; Nikola is good offensive rebounder and Gasol peaked in LA as "only" good, he wasn't all-timer in that aspect.

Also, for those who questions Pau as the first option - what Joker accomplished so far to call him better in that aspect? He has better team than Gasol in Grizzlies and he lost in second round against weak Blazers team. Not his fault, but usually Gasol lost not because of him either.

I'm not so much focused on players being the first option in general, it's all about impact for me. Look at Gasol's impact when he came to LA, he transformed that team. I'm not gonna penalise him for not being the best player on the team, he played with the guy named Kobe Bryant.

Yeah, I agree. We should praise elite first options, but sometimes it's even more valuable to take step back and adjust, while still having amazing impact. Pau was just a very smart and skilled player, these guys fit in any team and any era.

[Gooner]

Is he better shooter though? When Gasol started shooting threes, he was amazing at that. It's more era thing than skills difference, Jokic is not that great as a three point shooter.

It's the same with passing, era difference more than anything else. Both of them are elite big men passers.

No, it's not only era difference. Pau was really good passing bigman, but Jokic is one of the best ever. Sure, spacing helps but Jokic has better vision than Pau, better execution and better consistency as a passer. Role and era is not enough to overcome that gap. I'm far from modern=better, there were some bigs comparable to Jokic in terms of pure passing skills but Pau is not one of them.

"Both of them are elite big men passers" is not a good argument. Gervin and Jordan are both elite perimeter scorer (and Gervin played in tougher era to score) but it doesn't mean they are the same level.

I just disagree, I think Pau was as good of a passing big man I've ever seen. He could see the floor like a point guard and there was no pass he couldn't make. He passed in transition, he was finding cutters with bounce passes, he was great at short roll and throwing lobs to guys like Bynum and Howard, or finding shooters on the perimeter, he could find cutters with behind the back passes off the post. He had no limits as a passer.

[Odinn21]

If this is strictly about their NBA performances, Jokic has been better than Gasol's peak in the NBA for the last 1.5 years IMO.

But, Gasol is the goat non-US player on international level. His performances for Spain make me think that if he wasn't that good, he wouldn't be that successful. And I don't think Jokic could be that good / successful if he were in Gasol's shoes.

I'm taking Gasol still.

Gasol in 14 FIBA tournaments he played in (first one in 2001, last one in 2017);
113 games 28.2 mpg 20.2 ppg 8.0 rpg (2.0 oreb) 1.9 apg 0.5 spg 1.9 bpg 2.0 tpg on .589 fg, .708 ft, .653 ts (.412 3pt on 1.6 attempt per game)
Considering how hard it is to get numbers in FIBA-ball, these numbers are insane.
4 gold medals, 4 silver medals, 3 bronze medals in those 14.

[ardee]

Quick point - different era, but how is Pau that much better as an offensive rebounder? Nothing indicates that; Nikola is good offensive rebounder and Gasol peaked in LA as "only" good, he wasn't all-timer in that aspect.

Also, for those who questions Pau as the first option - what Joker accomplished so far to call him better in that aspect? He has better team than Gasol in Grizzlies and he lost in second round against weak Blazers team. Not his fault, but usually Gasol lost not because of him either.

I'm not so much focused on players being the first option in general, it's all about impact for me. Look at Gasol's impact when he came to LA, he transformed that team. I'm not gonna penalise him for not being the best player on the team, he played with the guy named Kobe Bryant.

How can you not be? Context matters with impact. Yeah Pau fit like a glove when he joined us but it was a very specific situation. Most of the time situations like that are not going to present themselves and in the rest of those instances you'd prefer Jokic.

[Woody Allen]

Jokic is just too out of shape all the time and sloppy on defense. I'm rooting for him but hard to say he deserves it. Gotta go with Pau.

[Odinn21]

Quick point - different era, but how is Pau that much better as an offensive rebounder? Nothing indicates that; Nikola is good offensive rebounder and Gasol peaked in LA as "only" good, he wasn't all-timer in that aspect.

Also, for those who questions Pau as the first option - what Joker accomplished so far to call him better in that aspect? He has better team than Gasol in Grizzlies and he lost in second round against weak Blazers team. Not his fault, but usually Gasol lost not because of him either.

I'm not so much focused on players being the first option in general, it's all about impact for me. Look at Gasol's impact when he came to LA, he transformed that team. I'm not gonna penalise him for not being the best player on the team, he played with the guy named Kobe Bryant.

How can you not be? Context matters with impact. Yeah Pau fit like a glove when he joined us but it was a very specific situation.

It wasn't a very specific situation. You knowing all about it doesn't make it very specific. Gasol was one of the most portable bigs in the game's entire history.

[Jaivl]

I had a point by point response typed out, but it's probably not really necessary. I think when it just comes down to it, you can build a legit contending team with Jokic as the main guy, i can't say the same for Pau. And he's a great 2nd option yeah, but how many Kobe Bryants are you going to be able to pair him up with in his career? It's just like i'm not going to take Manu over James Harden since he's better suited for a 2nd option, better defender and plays better in international leagues. It's not quite the same, but how different is the comparison?

Pau could do everything Jokic does in this Denver system, and more. What does Jokic do better than Pau really?

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

I'll go ahead and say Pau was a *much* better 3pt shooter than Jokič.

He just...did not shoot it, neither was he put on a position to do so. But he was shooting +40% on FIBA (something like 43% IIRC), and when he finally had some green light he shot it ver accurately on the NBA too (40% from 2012-2019).

[dygaction]

Pau could do everything Jokic does in this Denver system, and more. What does Jokic do better than Pau really?

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

I'll go ahead and say Pau was a *much* better 3pt shooter than Jokič.

He just...did not shoot it, neither was he put on a position to do so. But he was shooting +40% on FIBA (something like 43% IIRC), and when he finally had some green light he shot it ver accurately on the NBA too (40% from 2012-2019).

You cannot call Pau a 3pt shooter when Jokic made more 3s in the past two seasons than Pau's whole career spanning 18 seasons.. or, since it is hot, Zion is a career 40% 3pt shooter as of today
Jokic and Doncic are both better 3pt shooters than their stats show, as they often handle the ball and have to make many last second 3pt attempts.. I believe they can both be close to 40% if playing together, thinking about those wild passes and open 3s.

[70sFan]

Um, significantly better as a passer and 3 point shooter?

I'll go ahead and say Pau was a *much* better 3pt shooter than Jokič.

He just...did not shoot it, neither was he put on a position to do so. But he was shooting +40% on FIBA (something like 43% IIRC), and when he finally had some green light he shot it ver accurately on the NBA too (40% from 2012-2019).

You cannot call Pau a 3pt shooter when Jokic made more 3s in the past two seasons than Pau's whole career spanning 18 seasons.. or, since it is hot, Zion is a career 40% 3pt shooter as of today
Jokic and Doncic are both better 3pt shooters than their stats show, as they often handle the ball and have to make many last second 3pt attempts.. I believe they can both be close to 40% if playing together, thinking about those wild passes and open 3s.

I don't agree, it's not like Jokic is shooting pull-up contested threes all the time. I don't see how he's better three point shooter than his efficiency sugest. Joker is just not all-time great shooter, period

[rrravenred]

Feel like Jokic is a rich man's Gasol for the Triangle with his passing, but you do suffer quite a bit defensively, as well as in the Offensive boards.

As an offensive centerpiece, it's Jokic by a distance, but suspect is a decent bit harder to make a really strong defensive team with Jokic in the pivot.

Sent from my SM-A530F using RealGM mobile app

[dygaction]

I'll go ahead and say Pau was a *much* better 3pt shooter than Jokič.

He just...did not shoot it, neither was he put on a position to do so. But he was shooting +40% on FIBA (something like 43% IIRC), and when he finally had some green light he shot it ver accurately on the NBA too (40% from 2012-2019).

You cannot call Pau a 3pt shooter when Jokic made more 3s in the past two seasons than Pau's whole career spanning 18 seasons.. or, since it is hot, Zion is a career 40% 3pt shooter as of today
Jokic and Doncic are both better 3pt shooters than their stats show, as they often handle the ball and have to make many last second 3pt attempts.. I believe they can both be close to 40% if playing together, thinking about those wild passes and open 3s.

I don't agree, it's not like Jokic is shooting pull-up contested threes all the time. I don't see how he's better three point shooter than his efficiency sugest. Joker is just not all-time great shooter, period

He had a whole season averaging 39.5% and also last season playoffs 39%. With slight improvement and better teammate setup it is definitely possible. His shooting form, with such a high releasing point, makes it difficult to block but does worry me about the accuracy

[GSP]

Jokic and its not even close. Hes an Mvp/top 5 level player. Pau was never close to that level

Prime Kobe with Nikola would just be plain unfair

FTR Pau is 0-16 as his team's first option in the playoffs. Ill easily take the guy who can win a playoff game as his team's best player. This isnt even a debate