84-88 Larry Bird vs 13-17 Chris Paul

[Showstopper21]

Best 5 year stretch from each guy(more or less).

Who was better on offense, on defense and overall?

[dygaction]

Best 5 year stretch from each guy(more or less).

Who was better on offense, on defense and overall?

Really? We need to wait until playoffs to crown Giannis for regular season MVP, but keep bringing up stupid comparison like this with one player never played in the finals to the other legend with three consequtive MVPs, two Finals MVPs in the span??

[Colbinii]

Best 5 year stretch from each guy(more or less).

Who was better on offense, on defense and overall?

Really? We need to wait until playoffs to crown Giannis for regular season MVP, but keep bringing up stupid comparison like this with one player never played in the finals to the other legend with three consequtive MVPs, two Finals MVPs in the span??

If you don't want to participate in a thread you dont have too. Or better yet you can make your own thread discussion a topic you would like to discuss. Since you are no longer a ball-boy you can create threads as a Junior.

It's a win-win for everyone!

[dygaction]

Best 5 year stretch from each guy(more or less).

Who was better on offense, on defense and overall?

Really? We need to wait until playoffs to crown Giannis for regular season MVP, but keep bringing up stupid comparison like this with one player never played in the finals to the other legend with three consequtive MVPs, two Finals MVPs in the span??

If you don't want to participate in a thread you dont have too. Or better yet you can make your own thread discussion a topic you would like to discuss. Since you are no longer a ball-boy you can create threads as a Junior.

It's a win-win for everyone!

So you don't believe common sense is needed at all to create a thread like this? 2001-2004, Yao Ming or Shaq, defensively, offensively, overll?

[Colbinii]

Really? We need to wait until playoffs to crown Giannis for regular season MVP, but keep bringing up stupid comparison like this with one player never played in the finals to the other legend with three consequtive MVPs, two Finals MVPs in the span??

If you don't want to participate in a thread you dont have too. Or better yet you can make your own thread discussion a topic you would like to discuss. Since you are no longer a ball-boy you can create threads as a Junior.

It's a win-win for everyone!

So you don't believe common sense is needed at all to create a thread like this? 2001-2004, Yao Ming or Shaq, defensively, offensively, overll?

Sure, you could make that thread and I wouldn't participate in it.

I mean you made a thread with a poll of 90% to 10% so maybe you shouldn't comment about "common sense"...

[Dr Spaceman]

Best 5 year stretch from each guy(more or less).

Who was better on offense, on defense and overall?

Really? We need to wait until playoffs to crown Giannis for regular season MVP, but keep bringing up stupid comparison like this with one player never played in the finals to the other legend with three consequtive MVPs, two Finals MVPs in the span??

No way. He’s won RS MVP in a landslide.

I’ll wait till the playoffs to crown him best player though.

[Dr Spaceman]

I’d likely give this to Paul due to level of play alone (Bird’s defense wasn’t any good after 86 IMO). However, Paul had a lot, and I mean A LOT, of playoff games where he either missed or played at a reduced level due to injuries in this stretch. 14 is the only postseason where he didn’t suffer any serious injuries IIRC. Bird had issues of his own in 85 and 88 especially and his performance wasn’t inspiring either year.

Good thread, OP. It’s very close. I could see myself leaning either way.

[70sFan]

I'd take Bird because he's far better off-ball player while being impactful rebounder and decent enough defender. Good comparison, but Bird clearly for me.

[dygaction]

If you don't want to participate in a thread you dont have too. Or better yet you can make your own thread discussion a topic you would like to discuss. Since you are no longer a ball-boy you can create threads as a Junior.

It's a win-win for everyone!

So you don't believe common sense is needed at all to create a thread like this? 2001-2004, Yao Ming or Shaq, defensively, offensively, overll?

Sure, you could make that thread and I wouldn't participate in it.

I mean you made a thread with a poll of 90% to 10% so maybe you shouldn't comment about "common sense"...

Why not starting with not replying my post not addressed to you then? OP was also the one posting "Did Nikola Jokic peak higher than Dirk Nowitski already?" with 97% voting, and you were the only one there bashing Dirk's 11 run. Talking about agenda...
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1918986

[E-Balla]

Bird not by far but clearly. Add in the injuries and even with his injury in 88 it's Bird easily because Paul wasn't healthy any of those seasons.

[Colbinii]

Why not starting with not replying my post not addressed to you then?

Because as a forum go-er I read through threads I am interested in [like this one]. I came across a post that made no sense [yours] and I figured it could be addressed and that addressing it would be in the best interest of my interests and possibly others.

OP was also the one posting "Did Nikola Jokic peak higher than Dirk Nowitski already?" with 97% voting, and you were the only one there bashing Dirk's 11 run. Talking about agenda...
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1918986

I wasn't bashing Dirk's 11 run. If anything I was just there providing context to a poster who was attacking the OP [sounds like something you are familiar with ]

Here is my post from there in a full-spoiler for you to re-read without needing to open up another tab--or god forbid window.

Spoiler:

RE OKC: Durant had arguably his worst prime season in 2011 and lacked his playmaking he later added in his career. Prime-low WS/48, BPM [2.9], negative on-off. Harden was in his second season still and while he was underrated and underutilized he wasn't an all-star or close to it. Westbrook was just entering his prime, lacked a jump shot and was making poor decisions with the ball.

OKC was a 3.81 SRS team while overachieving on talent alone [expected Wins was 51, won 55].

The Trailblazers were a 1.84 SRS team. Roy was past his prime, Wesley Matthews and Andre Miller were the teams #2 and #3 options.

The Lakers were a good team...until you realize they were taken to 6 games by a mediocre Hornets team [1.28 SRS].

Now here are the highlights of the post I was replying to.

Swept defending champ lakers with pau Kobe etc 4-0
Beat thunder who had Durant, Westbrook and Harden!! 4-1
Beat Super Heat LeBron/Wade/Bosh 4-2

All I did was add context to the teams Dirk faced. I don't think you could consider what I said about this as "Bashing Dirk". Do you really think that was me "Bashing Dirk"?

Perhaps you disagree with my assessment and addition of context to Dirk's 2011 Post-season run, in which you could respond in that thread and we can carry on this discussion there

As for this thread, getting on topic...

It is close. Ranking the years of the selected results in an interesting tier list for me.

I have all of Bird 84, Bird 86 and CP3 2015 in the highest tier. In the next tier I have 2013 and 2017 Paul. In the third tier I have 1985 and 1987 Bird with 2014 CP3. Then the last tier looks like something like 1988 Bird with 2016 Paul.

Tier 1: 84/86 Bird, 15 Paul
Tier 2: 13/17 Paul
Tier 3: 85/87 Bird, 14 Paul
Tier 4: 88 Bird, 16 Paul

I likely give Bird less negatives for being injured since he played through his injuries while Paul had to sit out. As Spaceman mentioned, Bird really suffered defensively after 86 due to his body starting to break-down but him being on the court was still a positive unlike CP3 who was unable to be on the court during multiple runs.

[70sFan]

I don't agree that 1987 Bird is that low. He had amazing performance against very strong Pistons team and he didn't play badly at any point of the season.

[NY 567]

Paul is one of the best PGs of all time, but he doesn't come close to peak Bird.

[Odinn21]

This is not close enough to make it an actual comparison. I know CP3 is loved by box numbers and impact numbers. But he didn't have the off-ball play Bird had. He didn't have the ability to carry an offense on Bird's level (carrying an offense =/= running an offense).

To make this easier for you, this is from top 40 players of '87 thread;

As for Magic/Bird/Jordan, I have Bird as the best still.

The West was so uncompetitive against the Lakers and Magic, it had a considerable impact.
The Lakers had 9.30 MOV and 8.31 SRS. That is -0.99 SOS and it's the league's worst.
And their playoff competition;
1st round against 37-45 Nuggets, -1.14 SRS (15/23)
2nd round against 42-40 Warriors, -2.54 SRS (16/23)
WCF against 39-43 Sonics, 0.08 SRS (6/23)
NBA Finals against 59-23 Celtics, 6.57 SRS (3/23)
Averages; 44.3 wins, 0.74 SRS, 10.0 SRS rank

Not trying to take anything from Magic. IMHO, if Bird were in his position, I'd doubt that he'd do worse. Aside from beating the C's (who were pretty worn down) in the Finals, they just cruised in the season.
Kevin McHale was better than any other Laker than Magic surely but as for the overall help it's obvious.

Bird on the other hand, played in a way tougher conference. In regular season, Boston team had -0.07 SOS. Bird was still insanely good. His EFF, BPM and VORP numbers are better than Magic. Magic has him beat in PER and WS/48. He played great against the EC. Boston team didn't have a proper bench and they won 59 games, had 3rd best SRS and made it to the NBA Finals thanks to Bird.

Edit:
A stat about bench/help thing; in the playoffs, Bird played in 90.7% of all minutes Boston played (1015/1119). The same ratio for Magic is 77.1% (666/864). Magic got rested nearly double of Bird even though playing 5 less games (104 to 198 mins).

As for Jordan, I believe at this stage of his career I wouldn't pick him over Bird and Magic if my team has decent winning conditions.

I'd go Bird > Magic > Jordan for the season. Magic dominated the season, I can't argue against that. If the approach here is rather 'player of the season', then it's Magic. But I'm picking Bird as the best player in the season. It's just the competition that got dominated is an important factor to me.

Addition; among 60+ wins teams, 1987-88 Lakers have the worst SOS (-1.03) and 1986-87 Lakers have the 3rd worst SOS (-0.99).

I think Bird was better than Magic in Magic's peak season. He sure is better than Paul.

[Bel]

Are these threads a reverse troll to make people hate Chris Paul? This isn’t remotely close.

[dygaction]

Are these threads a reverse troll to make people hate Chris Paul? This isn’t remotely close.

Had the same question but someone, I know not a reverse troll, would tell you to make your own threads Bird played 101 playoff games to CP3's 42 during that 5 years span, that 59 games difference would be another regular season for CP3.

[No-more-rings]

I’d honestly take 84, 86 and 87 Bird over any of those Paul years so that tells you my answer. He hit a level in the playoffs in 84 and 86 that Paul never really reached, and his performance in 87 was at least adequate enough to give strong consideration to that year as well. And really if it wasn’t for one bad shooting series in 88, that year might be ahead too. I’m also a bit surprised that people think Bird like fell off some cliff defensively after 86. He was probably declined some on that end in 87, but i doubt it was to a point where he was no longer a contributor.

Comparing stats won’t make any sense given era differences, along with how differently they played and different positions altogether.

I mean to look at it in a vacuum, let’s have them switch roles. Does Chris Paul really take the team to 2 championships, 3 finals appearances and 5 straight Ecf? I think there’s like almost no chance he replicates that kind of success, considering he didn’t come at all close in his own scenario. On the flipside, i’d find it extremely unlikely that Bird doesn’t make at least a few WCF if he was on the Clippers. Like, i can’t really see anyone stopping that 2015 team with 86 Bird on it, I don’t know how that would work exactly with Denadre but if you could move Bird to SF, a frontcourt of Bird, Griffin and DeAndre is going to bring you at least one title.

[TheSheriff]

Not really close. That stretch from Bird was GOAT level. Bird is a top ten player of all time because of his peak. Compare it to Lebron James’s peak, not Chris Paul’s peak.

[GSP]

Bird comfortably on both ends outside of 88 defensively where he really was falling off with the injuries. But 88 mightve still been his offensive peak and one of the Goat offensive peaks in general, so it more than makes the gap against Cp3. Bird easily

[Dr Positivity]

3 MVPs in a row and a player who has an argument to be playing at a top 10 all time level, vs a player who was consistently around 3rd best player in the league. Also a massive gap in intangibles. Not close.

Color me confused by the CP hype, it’s not even like he’s lapping the field in +/-. His ranks from 14-17 in RPM are 2nd, 7th, 3rd and 2nd. He was 7th in 2013 RAPM. He isn’t blowing the field away in multiple seasons like 2000s KG when stat guys and traditionalists argued about him. Unlike KG he had a talented team and 2nd banana in Blake and good coach around him and his team was a consistent mid 50 Ws pretender. His carry job is not that amazing in my opinion. He is usually always behind some combination of Lebron and Curry/Durant depending on who’s having a strong season that year in my opinion (Durant MVP in 2014, Curry MVPs in 2015 and 2016, Durant gets the edge in 2017 for me due to his playoffs). He has an argument for 2nd in 2013 but 2013 Durant is an underrated season, his prime really starts that year (shoots up in TS) and 60 Ws without Harden is impressive