The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5)

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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#61 » by MisterHibachi » Tue May 5, 2020 12:26 pm

Bron already has the all access show to speak his mind on and tell his story: HBO Shop.

I will say though that the last few months have been brutal for LeBron's GOAT case: stopped cold in the middle of what was looking like a likely championship run and great stretch of basketball, not to mention it puts his pursuit of Kareem on hold too, then the Jordan propaganda doc comes out and now all the old timers are on the airwaves spreading their nostalgia bull.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#62 » by KTM_2813 » Tue May 5, 2020 4:49 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:Bron already has the all access show to speak his mind on and tell his story: HBO Shop.

I will say though that the last few months have been brutal for LeBron's GOAT case: stopped cold in the middle of what was looking like a likely championship run and great stretch of basketball, not to mention it puts his pursuit of Kareem on hold too, then the Jordan propaganda doc comes out and now all the old timers are on the airwaves spreading their nostalgia bull.


I've gone back and forth just how "propaganda" the doc is. I don't think it's anywhere near the puff piece that the D-Wade documentary was, and frankly Jordan was so great that being entirely critical of him wouldn't be accurate. At the same time, I do wish they were more specific about certain things. For example, one of the great failures of basketball historians is how the 1991 Bad Boys are remembered - they were simply not a great team anymore (50 wins, 3 SRS) - and yet that is never mentioned, and was not mentioned in the doc IIRC. I'll be very curious to see how they treat the 1995 and 1996 playoffs (I don't think they've gotten there yet, but I am one episode behind).
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#63 » by MisterHibachi » Tue May 5, 2020 6:23 pm

KTM_2813 wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:Bron already has the all access show to speak his mind on and tell his story: HBO Shop.

I will say though that the last few months have been brutal for LeBron's GOAT case: stopped cold in the middle of what was looking like a likely championship run and great stretch of basketball, not to mention it puts his pursuit of Kareem on hold too, then the Jordan propaganda doc comes out and now all the old timers are on the airwaves spreading their nostalgia bull.


I've gone back and forth just how "propaganda" the doc is. I don't think it's anywhere near the puff piece that the D-Wade documentary was, and frankly Jordan was so great that being entirely critical of him wouldn't be accurate. At the same time, I do wish they were more specific about certain things. For example, one of the great failures of basketball historians is how the 1991 Bad Boys are remembered - they were simply not a great team anymore (50 wins, 3 SRS) - and yet that is never mentioned, and was not mentioned in the doc IIRC. I'll be very curious to see how they treat the 1995 and 1996 playoffs (I don't think they've gotten there yet, but I am one episode behind).


They haven't really showed any negatives of Jordan on court. They've focused on Jordan's off court negatives, such as the gambling, freezing the media and random trips to Atlantic City. Jordan doesn't care what we think of him as a person, but he's gonna protect that basketball legacy at all costs.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#64 » by KTM_2813 » Tue May 5, 2020 8:27 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:Bron already has the all access show to speak his mind on and tell his story: HBO Shop.

I will say though that the last few months have been brutal for LeBron's GOAT case: stopped cold in the middle of what was looking like a likely championship run and great stretch of basketball, not to mention it puts his pursuit of Kareem on hold too, then the Jordan propaganda doc comes out and now all the old timers are on the airwaves spreading their nostalgia bull.


I've gone back and forth just how "propaganda" the doc is. I don't think it's anywhere near the puff piece that the D-Wade documentary was, and frankly Jordan was so great that being entirely critical of him wouldn't be accurate. At the same time, I do wish they were more specific about certain things. For example, one of the great failures of basketball historians is how the 1991 Bad Boys are remembered - they were simply not a great team anymore (50 wins, 3 SRS) - and yet that is never mentioned, and was not mentioned in the doc IIRC. I'll be very curious to see how they treat the 1995 and 1996 playoffs (I don't think they've gotten there yet, but I am one episode behind).


They haven't really showed any negatives of Jordan on court. They've focused on Jordan's off court negatives, such as the gambling, freezing the media and random trips to Atlantic City. Jordan doesn't care what we think of him as a person, but he's gonna protect that basketball legacy at all costs.


One thing I did find amusing was the media's reaction after the episode where Jordan was playing golf with Danny Ainge. So many old guys trying to justify their "Players back then weren't friends!" takes with armchair psychology. "Jordan wasn't actually being friendly with Ainge... He was just playing mind games to help the Bulls win the series..." :lol:
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#65 » by LKN » Tue May 5, 2020 9:47 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:Bron already has the all access show to speak his mind on and tell his story: HBO Shop.

I will say though that the last few months have been brutal for LeBron's GOAT case: stopped cold in the middle of what was looking like a likely championship run and great stretch of basketball, not to mention it puts his pursuit of Kareem on hold too, then the Jordan propaganda doc comes out and now all the old timers are on the airwaves spreading their nostalgia bull.


I've gone back and forth just how "propaganda" the doc is. I don't think it's anywhere near the puff piece that the D-Wade documentary was, and frankly Jordan was so great that being entirely critical of him wouldn't be accurate. At the same time, I do wish they were more specific about certain things. For example, one of the great failures of basketball historians is how the 1991 Bad Boys are remembered - they were simply not a great team anymore (50 wins, 3 SRS) - and yet that is never mentioned, and was not mentioned in the doc IIRC. I'll be very curious to see how they treat the 1995 and 1996 playoffs (I don't think they've gotten there yet, but I am one episode behind).


They haven't really showed any negatives of Jordan on court. They've focused on Jordan's off court negatives, such as the gambling, freezing the media and random trips to Atlantic City. Jordan doesn't care what we think of him as a person, but he's gonna protect that basketball legacy at all costs.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#66 » by D.Brasco » Wed May 20, 2020 1:44 am

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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#67 » by MisterHibachi » Wed May 20, 2020 12:06 pm

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I miss basketball :cry: :cry:
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#68 » by O_6 » Wed May 20, 2020 2:05 pm

He was having a spectacular bounce-back regular season. Leading the best team in the West as the easy MVP runner-up in the league. There have been some standout games and moments in this regular season.

But I know it was pre-season and is pretty irrelevant in the big picture, but LeBron's perfectly accurate driving mid-air left-handed behind the head no look pass to Danny Green is something I'll never forget when it comes to discussing LeBron's passing ability. It's one of the highest degree of difficulty passes I've ever seen. I know Green was wide open so it's hard to compare this in terms of difficulty vs. a great pass through a tight window, but from a physical dexterity/coordination standpoint this is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on a court.

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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#69 » by MisterHibachi » Sat Jun 6, 2020 6:26 pm

"He looked like Batman coming out of nowhere"
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#70 » by ardee » Sat Jun 6, 2020 6:47 pm

I think if a title in the bubble will be one of the greatest achievements in basketball history.

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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#71 » by xb3at band1tx » Sat Jun 6, 2020 7:12 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:

My first thought for best lob finisher was Shaq, but thinking about it now, AD does seem to control better in the air.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#72 » by nzahir » Sat Jun 6, 2020 8:18 pm

What do you guys think the rotation will look like in the playoffs and what would you do differently than Vogel (I can already envision Rondo ruining some games for us)?

Anyone think Dion may have a chance to make a real impact?
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#73 » by homecourtloss » Sat Jun 6, 2020 9:20 pm

D.Brasco wrote:
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His last 42 games saw him have a 66.7% TS, 62.7% eFG, 38.1 ast%, +17.5 per 100 on court, +22.7 on-off.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#74 » by letskissbro » Mon Jun 8, 2020 10:31 am

MisterHibachi wrote:

I gotta say some of Ben's recent player valuations are making me lose faith in backpicks. First he suggests that Davis is in the conversation for best player in the league and then he excuses his lackluster net rating as the sole superstar and LA's resilience without him as just the bench being built around LeBron? As if playing big minutes next to Rondo and Kuzma with 0 stretch bigs on the roster until the addition of Morris is playing to LeBron's strengths. I guess all it takes for a team to be tailored specifically for LeBron nowadays is to have a spot up shooter or two on the court.

At the end he rates Davis as a solid MVP level player. According to the seasonal valuation charts on his top 40 that would put him at ~20% CORP (give or take a couple percentage points). In a vacuum that doesn't sound too out of place but then you realize it's higher than he rated anyone last season, any of Harden and Paul's best years, and level with the bogus valuation he gave 2018 LeBron. I think he may very well be insinuating that he thinks Davis is the best player on the Lakers. He might be somewhat underrated this season but the conversation for best in the NBA is pretty firmly between Giannis and LeBron (assuming he's able to bring his conditioning back up to post-ASB levels when play resumes).

And this is coming from someone who's fairly high on AD and thinks he has a strong case this season for being a better player than peak Malone
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#75 » by RCM88x » Mon Jun 8, 2020 12:17 pm

letskissbro wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:

I gotta say some of Ben's recent player valuations are making me lose faith in backpicks. First he suggests that Davis is in the conversation for best player in the league and then he excuses his lackluster net rating as the sole superstar and LA's resilience without him as just the bench being built around LeBron? As if playing big minutes next to Rondo and Kuzma with 0 stretch bigs on the roster until the addition of Morris is playing to LeBron's strengths. I guess all it takes for a team to be tailored specifically for LeBron nowadays is to have a spot up shooter or two on the court.

At the end he rates Davis as a solid MVP level player. According to the seasonal valuation charts on his top 40 that would put him at ~20% CORP (give or take a couple percentage points). In a vacuum that doesn't sound too out of place but then you realize it's higher than he rated anyone last season, any of Harden and Paul's best years, and level with the bogus valuation he gave 2018 LeBron. I think he may very well be insinuating that he thinks Davis is the best player on the Lakers. He might be somewhat underrated this season but the conversation for best in the NBA is pretty firmly between Giannis and LeBron (assuming he's able to bring his conditioning back up to post-ASB levels when play resumes).

And this is coming from someone who's fairly high on AD and thinks he has a strong case this season for being a better player than peak Malone


I kinda agree with a lot of this, idk if he sort of changes his approach for these videos compared to backpicks, but I was surprised to see him be so high on him. Maybe its just an argument for him simply for the sake of trying to make an argument, but its hard to tell.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#76 » by KTM_2813 » Mon Jun 8, 2020 1:44 pm

Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see anything terribly inconsistent about Ben's methodology when it comes to Backpicks versus YouTube. In the case of the Davis video, Ben talks a lot about how Davis impacts the game outside of the box score, which is something that he always alluded to on Backpicks. I also don't think it's unfair to give some context to the plus-minus thing, especially since Davis plays with Rondo as much as he does (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong). I thought the Davis video was great overall.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#77 » by homecourtloss » Mon Jun 8, 2020 10:31 pm

KTM_2813 wrote:Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see anything terribly inconsistent about Ben's methodology when it comes to Backpicks versus YouTube. In the case of the Davis video, Ben talks a lot about how Davis impacts the game outside of the box score, which is something that he always alluded to on Backpicks. I also don't think it's unfair to give some context to the plus-minus thing, especially since Davis plays with Rondo as much as he does (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong). I thought the Davis video was great overall.


So does LeBron, though.

Bron+Rondo: 475 minutes, +8.1 per 100 possessions, 108.2 ORtg, 100.1 DRtg
AD+Rondo: 473 minutes, -4.8 per 100 possessions, 103.9 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg

For me, the biggest takeaway is how much the Lakers have struggled defensively with AD on and LeBron off.

LeBron On, AD OFF, 776 minutes
113.5 ORtg, 103.0 DRtg, +10.5 per 100 possessions

AD ON, LeBron OFF
111.9 ORtg, 114.4 DRtg, -2.5 per 100 possessions

Offense has slowly come along sans LeBron with AD on, but the defense has been complete garbage. For a supposed DPOY, this is unacceptable, even if you’re playing with Kuzma and Rondo.

AD+Rondo On, LeBron off: 356 minutes 112.7 ORtg, 117.4 Drtg, -4.7 per 100 possessions
LeBron +Rondo ON, AD off: 358 minutes, 113.5 ORtg, 99.5 DRtg, +14 per 100 possessions

Before they tweaked the RPM forumula, LeBron has the highest RPM I’ve seen other than Curry in 2016 before it came down (was +11 in March). And the reason that RPM was so high before the formula tweak is that just about every single lineup Lebron’s in benefits the Lakers offensively and defensively. Players who bring down other lineups, e.g., Rondo, get boosted in lineups with Brown.

In no way is the roster built around LeBron as he’s playing with a non shooting big in McGee (with whom, by the way, LeBron has one of his highest ORtg with, just as he did with TT instead of Love in three man pairings in 2016, i.e., it’s a myth about LeBron needing 4 shooters to create an offense), Rondo, poor/mediocre defending, meh shooting Kuzma, non shooting Dwight Howard, etc.

IF AD was having “too 5 player, best in the game discussion” impact, Lakers would have lost like 6-7 games this year given how good LeBron has been. And AD hasn’t been that. He has not carried the offense NOR defense.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#78 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:44 am

It's fairly obvious from the analytics and watching, that Lebron is the Lakers' engine.

They will go as far as he can lead them.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#79 » by Joey Wheeler » Tue Jun 9, 2020 2:25 am

Agree with most of what the guy in that video said, though "the best off-ball big man since Larry Bird" was a strange remark.

I think AD being an 85% free throw shooter and by far the best on the team as a big should be mentioned though. This is historical FT shooting for a big man and seems especially relevant when making an argument for him being the best in the game since, aside from Kawhi, the other guys generally mentioned in that breath are below average from the line, with Giannis being an outright liability from the line in the playoffs.

Could also explore how AD's GOAT off-ball play, ability to space the floor and switchability on defense allows for a lot of lineup versatility; it allows for no diminshing returns with Lebron dominating the ball the whole time of course, but it'll also allow the Lakers to either give substantial minutes to someone like Howard in the playoffs or play AD at the 5 in a small ball lineup depending on the opposition and situation.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 5) 

Post#80 » by MisterHibachi » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:27 am

Avery Bradley opts out of Orlando, and Jr Smith seems like a frontrunner for the Lakers to replace him. The Lakers are gonna have Dion, JR, and JaVale in quarantine lmao
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