Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list?

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Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list?

1
47
27%
2
59
34%
3
39
22%
4
7
4%
5
9
5%
outside the top 5
13
7%
 
Total votes: 174

SinceGatlingWasARookie
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#221 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 11:15 pm

Philosophy learned bebavior vs innate talent
What you you learned at age y is also different than what you learned at age 16 or age 26
What is subjective opinion and what is truth?

Nassim Taleb is accusing a lot science of being bull artistry based on peer approval alledgedly scientific peers.
He is even harder on journalists. Journalists care about peer approval not truth. Taleb thinks only engineering where the product has to actualluly work is truth based science and everything else is opinion.

You can't teach height. But better nutrition made the average man taller.
I doubt you can teach quickness. More athletic play at an early age probably improves quickness.

Isiah bitched about Jordan, "than if Jordan was 6' 1" like Isiah Jordan would be nothing." I think Isiah was correct, a 6' 1" Michael Jordan would not make an all start team and maybe would not even make the NBA. 6' 1" Bird and LeBron also probably can't make an NBA team. But Isiah failed to mention that Isiah with Bird's poor foot speed also can't make an NBA team.

Bird, Magic and Nash have court vision that LeBron simply does not have.
Dennis Johnson had worse court vision than Bird and worse court vision than LeBron and Dennis Johnson was not even a point guard until later in his NBA career but he did learn to run an offense and he did rack up,a lot of assists by intellectually learning how to run an offense. You can teach an old dog new tricks.

1980s plays did no know that they should shoot more 3s and they did not even know hiw much they could improve their 3.point shooting with practice. We are born with innate gifts and defficiencies but practice can still accomplish great things.

LeBron had quickness and athleticism that Bird and Magic never had. Bird and Magic had better more creative basketball reactions and countermoves than LeBron ever had.

They used to talk about playground skills vs coached skills. LeBron's game does look more intellectually learned than creatively learned when compared to Bird.



SNPA wrote:
Going back to this, I think LeBron is hurt on an all time ranking because he isn’t a natural basketball player, major parts of the game aren’t instinctual to him. Take his passing, he starts and spends years as a mainly drive and kick player. He was a great one, and yes there was a bit more, but mainly that was his passing acumen. I give him great credit for improving over time and now he can stand out top and pick teams apart. However, that just goes to prove the point that it is a learned skill for him. Other greats like Bird and Magic didn’t have to learn to have great floor vision and creation, they are natural players and could always do it. To them it is innate, not learned. (Lol at the post saying LeBron is a top three passer)

Another example is shooting. LeBron is a learned shooter. His form gives it away. The disrespect the Spurs showed him in the finals with young KL shows that. Pop flat out didn’t respect his jumper. Yes, better than letting him drive but still, just daring the best player in the league to take open shots is a sign and not a positive one for LeBron. Doug Christie has pointed out how LeBron looks down at his feet before shooting some threes (generally when he has the ball in iso). That glance down is a learned trigger allowing him to lineup the shot and his mechanics. Bird didn’t look down. He was a natural shooter.

LeBron is first and foremost a top flight athlete with a high BBIQ. Players like Bird or Magic are instinctual basketball players first. There is a difference and not a small one here. It doesn’t mean LeBron can’t surpass them (he is above Magic IMO because of defense).

However, to be GOAT one should be a supreme natural basketball player that has the key elements of the game come intuitively, a basketball savant able to play any style in any era at the top level of the game. LeBron to me isn’t that guy to me. He needs to play a certain style to be an all time great. Some will say this is a nonsense differentiation, I think at the GOAT level an athlete who plays basketball (learned) vs basketball player (innate) can be a separator.


I liked your thinking.

I agree that thera LeBron played in was perfect for his drive and kick game. His very good but not great court vision was good enough to be very effective with modern floor spacing.

I will disagree that the GOAT must be a great natural basketball player.
Give me a 12 foot tall man who trips over his own feet, has no natural athletic ability and never sees a basketball game until he is 30 years old. This hypothetical clumsy giant may destroy the game of basketball but he may also be the GOAT.

To me the most effective player at helping his team win is the GOAT and I don't care how the player helps his team win.

Longevity vs Peak? A two year Peak is long enogh for me. Maybe even a one year peak. The best player ever is the best player ever even if it is for a brief time.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#222 » by Matt15 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 11:21 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Matt15 wrote:I rate Lebron just a hair below Marcus and Lew


George Marcus and Lew Alcindor?


Yup :wink:
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#223 » by GeorgeMarcus » Sat Aug 1, 2020 11:48 pm

Matt15 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Matt15 wrote:I rate Lebron just a hair below Marcus and Lew


George Marcus and Lew Alcindor?


Yup :wink:


:) Good man
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#224 » by SNPA » Sun Aug 2, 2020 12:49 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Philosophy learned bebavior vs innate talent
What you you learned at age y is also different than what you learned at age 16 or age 26
What is subjective opinion and what is truth?

Nassim Taleb is accusing a lot science of being bull artistry based on peer approval alledgedly scientific peers.
He is even harder on journalists. Journalists care about peer approval not truth. Taleb thinks only engineering where the product has to actualluly work is truth based science and everything else is opinion.

You can't teach height. But better nutrition made the average man taller.
I doubt you can teach quickness. More athletic play at an early age probably improves quickness.

Isiah bitched about Jordan, "than if Jordan was 6' 1" like Isiah Jordan would be nothing." I think Isiah was correct, a 6' 1" Michael Jordan would not make an all start team and maybe would not even make the NBA. 6' 1" Bird and LeBron also probably can't make an NBA team. But Isiah failed to mention that Isiah with Bird's poor foot speed also can't make an NBA team.

Bird, Magic and Nash have court vision that LeBron simply does not have.
Dennis Johnson had worse court vision than Bird and worse court vision than LeBron and Dennis Johnson was not even a point guard until later in his NBA career but he did learn to run an offense and he did rack up,a lot of assists by intellectually learning how to run an offense. You can teach an old dog new tricks.

1980s plays did no know that they should shoot more 3s and they did not even know hiw much they could improve their 3.point shooting with practice. We are born with innate gifts and defficiencies but practice can still accomplish great things.

LeBron had quickness and athleticism that Bird and Magic never had. Bird and Magic had better more creative basketball reactions and countermoves than LeBron ever had.

They used to talk about playground skills vs coached skills. LeBron's game does look more intellectually learned than creatively learned when compared to Bird.



SNPA wrote:
Going back to this, I think LeBron is hurt on an all time ranking because he isn’t a natural basketball player, major parts of the game aren’t instinctual to him. Take his passing, he starts and spends years as a mainly drive and kick player. He was a great one, and yes there was a bit more, but mainly that was his passing acumen. I give him great credit for improving over time and now he can stand out top and pick teams apart. However, that just goes to prove the point that it is a learned skill for him. Other greats like Bird and Magic didn’t have to learn to have great floor vision and creation, they are natural players and could always do it. To them it is innate, not learned. (Lol at the post saying LeBron is a top three passer)

Another example is shooting. LeBron is a learned shooter. His form gives it away. The disrespect the Spurs showed him in the finals with young KL shows that. Pop flat out didn’t respect his jumper. Yes, better than letting him drive but still, just daring the best player in the league to take open shots is a sign and not a positive one for LeBron. Doug Christie has pointed out how LeBron looks down at his feet before shooting some threes (generally when he has the ball in iso). That glance down is a learned trigger allowing him to lineup the shot and his mechanics. Bird didn’t look down. He was a natural shooter.

LeBron is first and foremost a top flight athlete with a high BBIQ. Players like Bird or Magic are instinctual basketball players first. There is a difference and not a small one here. It doesn’t mean LeBron can’t surpass them (he is above Magic IMO because of defense).

However, to be GOAT one should be a supreme natural basketball player that has the key elements of the game come intuitively, a basketball savant able to play any style in any era at the top level of the game. LeBron to me isn’t that guy to me. He needs to play a certain style to be an all time great. Some will say this is a nonsense differentiation, I think at the GOAT level an athlete who plays basketball (learned) vs basketball player (innate) can be a separator.


I liked your thinking.

I agree that thera LeBron played in was perfect for his drive and kick game. His very good but not great court vision was good enough to be very effective with modern floor spacing.

I will disagree that the GOAT must be a great natural basketball player.
Give me a 12 foot tall man who trips over his own feet, has no natural athletic ability and never sees a basketball game until he is 30 years old. This hypothetical clumsy giant may destroy the game of basketball but he may also be the GOAT.

To me the most effective player at helping his team win is the GOAT and I don't care how the player helps his team win.

Longevity vs Peak? A two year Peak is long enogh for me. Maybe even a one year peak. The best player ever is the best player ever even if it is for a brief time.


But does era-fit matter? This hypothetical lumbering 12 footer you talk about isn’t of nearly as much value today as other eras. Teams would just bomb more threes and stay out of the paint. The GOAT IMO should be the greatest of all time, which to me means any time any where, not era specific.

Who on their best day was the best all around player ever. To the degree style and era empower a player up a GOAT list the more it hurts them IMO, these things are inversely proportional. There’s a big gap between GOAT of an era or style and GOAT.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#225 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Aug 2, 2020 4:10 am

SNPA wrote:


SNPA wrote:

However, to be GOAT one should be a supreme natural basketball player that has the key elements of the game come intuitively, a basketball savant able to play any style in any era at the top level of the game.



[quote=Gatling]
I will disagree that the GOAT must be a great natural basketball player.
Give me a 12 foot tall man who trips over his own feet, has no natural athletic ability and never sees a basketball game until he is 30 years old. This hypothetical clumsy giant may destroy the game of basketball but he may also be the GOAT.

To me the most effective player at helping his team win is the GOAT and I don't care how the player helps his team win.

.


But does era-fit matter? This hypothetical lumbering 12 footer you talk about isn’t of nearly as much value today as other eras. Teams would just bomb more threes and stay out of the paint. The GOAT IMO should be the greatest of all time, which to me means any time any where, not era specific.

Who on their best day was the best all around player ever. To the degree style and era empower a player up a GOAT list the more it hurts them IMO, these things are inversely proportional. There’s a big gap between GOAT of an era or style and GOAT.


A lot of people think the era of dominant big men is over. I don't agree. Wilt, Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem would still dominate. Bob Lanier would still play in the current league and still be a great scorer but he would be a defensive liablity but still too good to bench.

I made an absurd sututation to prove a point. Really if a 12 foot giant showed up the NBA would change the rules.

But imagine this. Let's not even use a 30 year old man as the model. The average 40 year old woman at Walmart is 5' 4" and is overweight weighing 175 pounds. Lets give her downs syndrome as an additional handicap. She might have a heart attack if she tries to run the floor with NBA players. Men are stronger than women but I am making a woman so huge that this woman would easily overpower Shaq.

Multiply her 5' 4" height by 2.25 to make her 12 foot tall. Basketball players are tall compared to their other 2 dimensions but people are 3 dimensional. I am not giving her a basketball player shaped body. Multiply her size by 2.25 in all 3 dimensions. We are talking about a 40 year old woman that weighs 1900 pounds and plays above the rim. Even if I started with a thin 110 pound woman she still ends up weighing 1200 pounds if i multiply her by 2.25 in all 3 demensions.

She is uncordinated but she can get that ball through the hoop. She is shooting downwards like throwing trash in the trash can. Any attemp to block her shot is goaltending once the ball leaves her hand. I stipulated that she is grossly uncordinated so her teamates better give her easy to catch passes. She shoots free throws at near zero percent but only Shaq and a a few other guys are strong enough to make her miss when they intentionally foul her. If the NBA does not change the rules to stop her she becomes the GOAT in any era just because of her size.

Her offense alone is too much to overcome even if she never comes back to play any defense.

So, no natural basketball ability is not nessary to becone GOAT. Shaq's power is not less of a GOAT attribute than Bird's basketball creative instincts. Nate Robbinson may have had the fastest measured quickness running the court. That is as much part of basketball as what Bird had. LeBron had a great mix of some Shaq power, Nate Robinson speed and Bird basketball gifts.

My hypothetical 12 foot giant clumsy fat woman is better because she can help a team win more. Her worst problem with era might be in the 1960s when refs were fairly serious about making defenders stay withinn 5 feet of their man and my giant average woman of Walmart would not have the stamina to stay within 5 feet of her man.

In the modern zone era she would have no problem. The fabulous modern 3 point shooters can't hit unguarded 3s at a high enough percentage to outscore gigantic woman.

LeBron had an advantage by playing in the era he played in but he would be great in any era. If I put LeBron back in. The 1960s he will have to learn to dribble but after he learns to dribble it is quite likely that he would be more valuable than Wilt, Russell and Oscar.

I still take Jordan over LeBron and I am not sure that LeBron in the 1960s would be better than Wilt.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#226 » by TrueLAfan » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:55 pm

Since I haven’t participated in the last couple of top player projects, I kind of want to comment (long) on this.

I agree that LeBron played/plays in the perfect time era relative to his skills and type of play. But so did Kareem, and so did Jordan, and so did Russell. I don’t think you can look at that as a criticism of any player. Shaq, IMO, peaked in the period most conducive to his style and attributes. Doesn’t make me think anything less of him as a player, or regard him less highly. In the same way, I don’t think considering how players approach the game intellectually is a difference maker—it’s all about wins and team success. If you’re instinctive or calculated, or pick up a skill—if it helps, it helps, and that’s that. Just my .02 on that.

So. As far as I’m concerned, you’ve got Jordan, Kareem, LeBron and Russell as Top 4. Russell has the most success as a team leader, which is the ultimate accolade, He’s the most one dimensional, though—but that’s countered with the fact that

1) That dimension (defense) in critically important, and
2) His impact in that one dimension is, literally, unparalleled

My problem with Russell vs. LeBron (spoiler alert: will come up again) is longetivity. Russell was more of an iron man in terms of percentage of games played and minutes per game. But even so, LeBron’s peak period—which he’s still in—is a good 210 games longer. That’s three full (almost) seasons; over 20% longer than Russell’s. the debate who is more valuable or has more impact on the court is interesting—but I just don’t think Russell gets/could get enough of an advantage in that type of analysis to overcome 220 games and counting. So, LeBron there.

Jordan is more problematic. IMO, Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever. Michael Jordan from 1990 to 1993 was better than any player to over walk onto the court. That’s just me, but that’s what I think.

Jordan’s 12 year peak was also incredibly strong—as strong as or maybe better than Kareem or LeBron’s. And he has a small, but critical bonus too—he simply didn’t miss games. Other than his injury year in 1986, Michael Jordan played in over 99% of his team’s games—considerably more than LeBron. Ad I think Jordan has more off-court impact than LeBron—although I largely don’t count that in terms of a “who’s better?” player discussion. So Jordan has some possible advantages.

But LeBron has the same peak length advantage as he did over Russell—it’s actually slightly greater. And, in this case, Jordan’s peak had/has a flaw—the baseball hiatus. More and more, I understand why Jordan took the break. His will and singular focus was unparalleled, but ultimately destructive. Jordan played angry and was permanently vengeful and, in a way, afraid of losing his standing; you just can’t have that much anger and revenge and fear inside you all the time. So part of what made him great made him do what LeBron and Kareem never did—take off. I look at Russell in 1969, who had his own share of issues—age, weakening team, racism—and the dude went back out there and won. Same with Kareem. After the 1985 season, Kareem didn’t say “Wow...that’s my fourth ring, and I got the Finals MVP, and I’m 37 and I’ve played the second most minutes in NBA history. I think I’ll call it a day.” He wanted more. You can’t discount the drive in either of those players—it was simply less self-destructive. So I drop Jordan for that and that shorter peak—enough to put him below Kareem and LeBron.

That leaves Kareem. We always talk about Kareem's longetivity. But, in this case, I think it’s a dead heat. Kareem was better longer; he was still a stud in 1986. And I think Kareem’s peak 12 year period (70-81) is as good or maybe better than LeBron’s peak 12 years. We’re splitting hairs here—you’re never going to have a conclusive answer. So the question is whether LeBron in 2004 and 2005 and the last three years, is better than Kareem after 1981. And, well, it’s tough. But I have to go with LeBron. Not that there’s anything wrong with Kareem after 1981—he got onto 5 more All-NBA teams, an All-D team, was in the top 5 of MVP voting three times, and top 10 two more times. I mean, he was great. He just wasn’t as great as LeBron, even if he played more games. That’s no insult to Kareem. But I figure that, sometime in the past year or two, by continuing to play at an MVP level, LeBron edged past Kareem.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#227 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 6:56 pm

I think a few people saying LeBron played in the perfect era for him aren't being accurate. LeBron would have been fine in absolutely any era but the 98-2010 era did not do him any big favors at all. The 80's and early 90's would have been far better for him than that era was.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#228 » by feyki » Tue Aug 4, 2020 2:16 pm

Last two years hurt his career a bit. He could already surpass Russell and Jordan in my view. But now, I would put him at number 4, after KAJ, Jordan and Russell.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#229 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:02 pm

Yes, guys like Lebron and to a lesser extent, Kareem and Wilt, would dominate in any era. But Jordan absolutely did not play in the "perfect era" for his talents. It's become such an overly mythologized notion at this point that Jordan "made the league more perimeter oriented" yet it's not exactly a coincidence that dominant big men once again, well, dominated the league and the championship picture (Shaq, Duncan, KG) immediately after the Bulls dynasty ran its course. Jordan was such a dominant force as a perimeter player that was and still is unprecedented given the landscape of the league when he entered.
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Re: Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list? 

Post#230 » by bledredwine » Wed Aug 5, 2020 3:07 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Yes, guys like Lebron and to a lesser extent, Kareem and Wilt, would dominate in any era. But Jordan absolutely did not play in the "perfect era" for his talents. It's become such an overly mythologized notion at this point that Jordan "made the league more perimeter oriented" yet it's not exactly a coincidence that dominant big men once again, well, dominated the league and the championship picture (Shaq, Duncan, KG) immediately after the Bulls dynasty ran its course. Jordan was such a dominant force as a perimeter player that was and still is unprecedented given the landscape of the league when he entered.


Well said.

I also doubt that it's a coincidence that immediately after his retirement, they made the rule changes to ban hand-checking and instill the violations to keep bigs out of the lane.

I did "research" about a decade back on perimeter players and their scoring increases effective the 2 seasons that these rule changes took effect. I kid you not, nearly all decent perimeter players benefited - The elite had scoring spikes between 5-7 PPG and that includes even players who had been in the league for a while... at one point, fricking Jerry Stackhouse was averaging 30 ppg.

The players always knew about 3 pointers. There were always elite 3 point shooters. But the game didn't encourage 3 point shooting... simple as that. Players adapted to the rules and now there's more output.

As for bigs dominating afterwards? Yes, Duncan, KG, and Shaq dominated, but IMO perimeter shooters dominated more than ever. The top scoring lists gravitated from power forwards/bigs/centers to perimeter players fairly quickly.
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