Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list?

[Homer38]

That’s because Jordan has a ton of pros and very cons in comparison to Lebron and there are many myths floating around, including Lebron’s clutch ability in particular.

That’s not hating. That’s providing facts. When you take large samples, Lebron is very poor in the clutch. I will be more than happy to post the evidence for you.

Once again, in common polls, Jordan had by far the most first place votes, with 76% of the vote, Kareem coming second and Lebron somewhere near 9 percent.

You tell me who’s biased here. I’m providing stats in each of my posts while you’re providing mere drama.

If you took all of your posts in this thread and included the basketball facts, it could be condensed to one post. But instead, your jumping on posters for not fawning over lebron. Think about that.

You go out of your way in your signature to point out how you think LeBron James and James Harden are overrated. Think about that for a second. The message you want people to walk away from after reading your signature is that LeBron James isn't an All-Time great and definitely worse than your precious Jordan. Then you say "It's just facts bro". There are plenty of facts about a lot of players but you choose this particular stat for no reason other than to "just state a fact"?

And yeah of course I'm answering about the person and not the post when someone who thinks every person is a LeBron fan trying to discredit your childhood hero when they don't agree with your fawning over MJ and needless bashing of other players to make MJ look better.

If you can't see how clearly you're broadcasting your agenda of MJ >>> LeBron, then I don't know what else to say.

Yep! I have reasons that Lebron’s clutch abilities and James Harden are both overrated, in my opinion. That’s not hating, it’s providing opinion with evidence. I don’t think Lebron James is nearly as good as you think he is. So what?

That’s my opinion.

What I don’t do is quote others and bash them for their all time rankings like you do. I may express surprise if a thread is giving a player the shaft, but I always back it with reasons. I won’t call people “haters” or any of that.

What’s so hard to understand here? That’s what a monarchy does. Calling people haters gets nothing done, ten out of ten times. And I’m not perfect at all- I used to do the same thing. It’s just something to be mindful of.

Problem with the stats of Harden is that he was a bench player in 3 of his years who was one of the big reason why his PPG was low at the age of 27...What was his PPG with Houston when he was 27 years old?

I know that Harden struggle big time in the playoffs,but the PPG is not a good argument if you includes when he was in OKC as bench player and 3rd option.

[bledredwine]

I absolutely love that someone can admit to Jordan giving up on a game, then jusitying it because he was "called out" for shooting too much 4 years into his career.

Then in the very next sentence, blames Lebron for 'quitting' in the celtics series (with no real evidence) as if Lebron hadn't been given a far better reason to do so with a completely inept front office all the way through for 7 years. But boo hoo Jordan is allowed to quit because the coach hurt his feelings.

How you can actually justify Jordan's actions and try and hold Lebrons against him is just so far beyond being biased it's an no wonder this person is never taken seriously.

Hey man, that’s not cool of Jordan if he did that. I need to look into the context because I’m unaware.
But you know what? That’s one single game you’ve pointed out, whereas I gave multiple series and tons of instances on Lebron’s lack of competitiveness in comparison. to the other greats. If you list similar fault of three of them, only then they might total the number of ways Lebron has displayed more care about legacy than the urge to win. And if you use Magic, Bird, Jordan? Forget about it.

It really shouldn’t be a hard point to understand. I think that we could all agree that one of these guys was hyper-competitive. And one has done very controversial things, Competitively speaking. How is this news to anyone?

Do you think declaring “not 6, not 7” was ok?
Quitting three times in actual playoff series?
How about assembling the Miami big 3 at that particular time?

I think you have your answer, if you objectively analyze those and then compare Jordan’s examples of lack of competition (what will you try and bend, his retirement and then use that single regular season game from 88?)... But go for it, since you insist on going down the Jordan route, knowing that I’m a Jordan fan and he’s consensus GOAT, generally speaking. All of Magic, Bird, Kobe, Jordan, Isiah, Duncan were more competitive than Lebron, regardless of talent. Only KD could be discussed in the same criticisms.

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

I have him at #3, behind MJ and KAJ. I dock him in comparison to the other two for his style of play (incredibly ball dominant), his repeated jumping ship to other teams and recruiting other star players, his beefs with management/coaches, and his "load management" which stretches back many years. And, of course, he hasn't won as many titles or MVP's as them.

[iggymcfrack]

I absolutely love that someone can admit to Jordan giving up on a game, then jusitying it because he was "called out" for shooting too much 4 years into his career.

Then in the very next sentence, blames Lebron for 'quitting' in the celtics series (with no real evidence) as if Lebron hadn't been given a far better reason to do so with a completely inept front office all the way through for 7 years. But boo hoo Jordan is allowed to quit because the coach hurt his feelings.

How you can actually justify Jordan's actions and try and hold Lebrons against him is just so far beyond being biased it's an no wonder this person is never taken seriously.

Hey man, that’s not cool of Jordan if he did that. I need to look into the context because I’m unaware.
But you know what? That’s one single game you’ve pointed out, whereas I gave multiple series and tons of instances on Lebron’s lack of competitiveness in comparison. to the other greats. If you list similar fault of three of them, only then they might total the number of ways Lebron has displayed more care about legacy than the urge to win. And if you use Magic, Bird, Jordan? Forget about it.

It really shouldn’t be a hard point to understand. I think that we could all agree that one of these guys was hyper-competitive. And one has done very controversial things, Competitively speaking. How is this news to anyone?

Do you think declaring “not 6, not 7” was ok?
Quitting three times in actual playoff series?
How about assembling the Miami big 3 at that particular time?

I think you have your answer, if you objectively analyze those and then compare Jordan’s examples of lack of competition (what will you try and bend, his retirement and then use that single regular season game from 88?)... But go for it, since you insist on going down the Jordan route, knowing that I’m a Jordan fan and he’s consensus GOAT, generally speaking. All of Magic, Bird, Kobe, Jordan, Isiah, Duncan were more competitive than Lebron, regardless of talent. Only KD could be discussed in the same criticisms.

The point is Jordan’s thing is an actual documented case where you can see he intentionally quit and why. LeBron’s thing is just made up talk radio BS where they use that as a talking point whenever he has a disappointing series. In the series against Boston where he “quit”, he averaged 27/9/7 against one of the best defenses in the league. That’s pretty close to Jordan’s career averages. In the decisive sixth game, he put up 27/19/10 and only didn’t score more because the Celtics’ agressive defense had forced him into 9 turnovers. Do you think you grab 19 rebounds in a playoff game against Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Kendrick Perkins, and Paul Pierce by “quitting” and “not really trying”? It sure looks to me like he did everything humanly possible to win the game. Yeah, he threw his jersey off in frustration afterwards, but that was because he was performing at an inhuman level and it wasn’t enough to win, not because he didn’t really want to win in the first place.

You know the most rebounds Michael Jordan ever had in a playoff triple double? 10. LeBron almost doubles that and rather than being praised for his extraordinary all-time great performance of effort and hustle, he gets accused of quitting even though 13 of those 19 rebounds were in the second half and the game was competitive into the last 2 minutes. He’s held to an impossibly high standard.

[nfmos]

I oscillate between 2 and 5. Most days it settles around 3.

He's the greatest individual talent I've ever seen. And had a great work ethic and got a lot out of it. When he became more confident later in his career he seemed unstoppable at times. From a raw talent perspective, 2009 was maybe the most dominant indidvudal season I've ever seen from a face up perimeter player. His playoffs were incredible, if that were his consistent prime and he won titles during that time I might have his peak as #1.

I think I just have a problem with his intangibles. Early in his career I thought he had a pretty unfortunate set of circumstances that made it difficult for him to win....but this applied to so many great players in their career. He decided to take matters into his own hands and control his own destiny and shape his own team's from then on. But the way his teams were designed felt less less than the sum of their parts. At the end of the day, it really, really seemed like he should have won more than he did and I believe a good amount of that it his own fault. Nobody else in history gets a pass, especially when nobody else has had the amount of power he's had over his own career since 2010, so I don't see why LeBron should especially when he can basically form his own teams, supercede GMs, fire coaches, etc. If other players had the same ability to conspire and play with their elite NBA buddies in their prime, a lot of hall of fame careers would look different. I'm not willing to overlook this, it's a huge deal.

I also don't really like his attitude at times. He's flat out quit on numerous occasions at crucial moments. The most recent example is the 2018 finals. No one expected the cavs to win that series but in game 1 theyre tied with the dubs going into overtime. Sure, JR made a mistake..... But the f**king game was tied!! He acted like they already lost! There are SOOO many times in competition where a call doesn't go your way or something seemingly unlucky happens, maybe in your control or not, but if you're the leader of a team you have to play through those moments. You play your hardest until the end and see where the chips fall. What it the warriors had a series of unfortunate series shifting injuries like they did in 2016? What if KD hurts sprains his ankle, or curry or someone goes out for a few games. This literally happened in 2019 and the raptors won the title. But with Lebron's attitude they'd never have a shot because he already quit. He sulked in such a horrible way, distancing himself from his team and flat out gave up when the game was TIED. And then the rest of the series, he pretty much spent the press conferences stroking the greatness of the other team, communicating with his body language that he had no faith in his team. And then game 4, not trying at all and then wrapping his hand in that cast, ready for an excuse to give the media? It wouldn't be as big if a deal, except he's done this many times throughout his career. Just folded when he thought he was going to lose instead of giving it his all. Its consistent behavior with him, he acts like a spoiled child at times and it irritates me beyond belief because I like his personality otherwise.

For these reasons, in my mind he definitely is not #1 now and through his own actions prevented himself from ever surpassing guys like MJ, despite the fact that he's the right kind of talent to be the undisputed greatest.

I suspect that most people will not ever consider him the greatest either. MJ probably won't be surpassed culturally but a player may surpass his impact on the court. It could have been LeBron but I believe it will probably be someone else.

I agree with this so much and I can't see why the people that complain about the talent he had around him don't acknowledge your first point about how much control he had over his situation. Look at how many all star players he arranged to play with. But like you said, they should have won more than they did with the lineups he arranged. Jordan had one perennial all star, with Pippen, and people overlook how much a hand Jordan had in creating who Pippen became, isnt it obvious how much Pip played like Jordan? But how many players did Lebron develop like that? I think Jordan was more dedicated to putting in the work in practice and the offseason to develop others, especially with their mental game, and invest his energy in that, while Lebron put more effort in recruiting finished talent.

I also agree with what you said about their attitude. Lebron obviously has always been extremely competitive but I just think Jordan was literally obsessed with winning just more than he was. He probably made him more of a jerk and less people got a long with him off the court, but winning was literally everything with him, in everything.

LeBron and the others need to be judged by their play...Since 2012, how many times has the heat or the cavs lost a series because LBJ had not played in its high standards?

No problem those who think that Jordan, KAJ, Russell are higher than LBJ but outside the top 10 for no good reason, I have a problem.

Of course he is top 5 at worst, most likely top 3 or 2.

But my question would be, how much more to a great player is their work not just on the court during games, but during practice and the off season where it helps develop their teammates and team both physically and mentally? How is Lebrons practice intensity? Ive never heard the stories of him like MJ or even Kobe where they took every practice as seriously as a playoff game. Obviously he is an extremely hard worker himself and works out religiously, but how hard is he pushing his teammates outside of games? Is he obsessed like MJ was?

I also think the biggest reason Lebron never became what he could have was he never had that basis of good coaching from the start to realize good teams can win more than great players. MJ had Dean Smith where he was the best player on the team but still had to work within the team environment. From the get go in HS, Lebron was basically the coach, and figured he could just carry the team, which he was correct 99.9% of the time. He never had that coach that really challenged him to do things maybe he didnt want to, but a lot of that has to do with him controlling who got to coach him. As a result, on the teams that lost, he had just a bunch of players sitting around watching him do his thing, which will never work against great teams that don't just count on one person.

In general, i believe thats why the top players in the 80s and 90s might have been less athletic as some people here say, but they were also probably better basketball players because they had better fundamentals from established coaches and colleges instead of showboating AAU games. Thats why i think a team like the dream team had a lot easier time than the all star international teams that lost later on. Sure the other countries caught up talent wise, but they beat us because they played better team ball, and not just hero ball.

[KTM_2813]

I oscillate between 2 and 5. Most days it settles around 3.

He's the greatest individual talent I've ever seen. And had a great work ethic and got a lot out of it. When he became more confident later in his career he seemed unstoppable at times. From a raw talent perspective, 2009 was maybe the most dominant indidvudal season I've ever seen from a face up perimeter player. His playoffs were incredible, if that were his consistent prime and he won titles during that time I might have his peak as #1.

I think I just have a problem with his intangibles. Early in his career I thought he had a pretty unfortunate set of circumstances that made it difficult for him to win....but this applied to so many great players in their career. He decided to take matters into his own hands and control his own destiny and shape his own team's from then on. But the way his teams were designed felt less less than the sum of their parts. At the end of the day, it really, really seemed like he should have won more than he did and I believe a good amount of that it his own fault. Nobody else in history gets a pass, especially when nobody else has had the amount of power he's had over his own career since 2010, so I don't see why LeBron should especially when he can basically form his own teams, supercede GMs, fire coaches, etc. If other players had the same ability to conspire and play with their elite NBA buddies in their prime, a lot of hall of fame careers would look different. I'm not willing to overlook this, it's a huge deal.

I also don't really like his attitude at times. He's flat out quit on numerous occasions at crucial moments. The most recent example is the 2018 finals. No one expected the cavs to win that series but in game 1 theyre tied with the dubs going into overtime. Sure, JR made a mistake..... But the f**king game was tied!! He acted like they already lost! There are SOOO many times in competition where a call doesn't go your way or something seemingly unlucky happens, maybe in your control or not, but if you're the leader of a team you have to play through those moments. You play your hardest until the end and see where the chips fall. What it the warriors had a series of unfortunate series shifting injuries like they did in 2016? What if KD hurts sprains his ankle, or curry or someone goes out for a few games. This literally happened in 2019 and the raptors won the title. But with Lebron's attitude they'd never have a shot because he already quit. He sulked in such a horrible way, distancing himself from his team and flat out gave up when the game was TIED. And then the rest of the series, he pretty much spent the press conferences stroking the greatness of the other team, communicating with his body language that he had no faith in his team. And then game 4, not trying at all and then wrapping his hand in that cast, ready for an excuse to give the media? It wouldn't be as big if a deal, except he's done this many times throughout his career. Just folded when he thought he was going to lose instead of giving it his all. Its consistent behavior with him, he acts like a spoiled child at times and it irritates me beyond belief because I like his personality otherwise.

For these reasons, in my mind he definitely is not #1 now and through his own actions prevented himself from ever surpassing guys like MJ, despite the fact that he's the right kind of talent to be the undisputed greatest.

I suspect that most people will not ever consider him the greatest either. MJ probably won't be surpassed culturally but a player may surpass his impact on the court. It could have been LeBron but I believe it will probably be someone else.

Thanks for posting this. I think that you raise some really good points, and I have some thoughts about them.

The point about LeBron's complicity in his teams being flawed is an interesting one that frankly makes my head explode after a certain point. There's no doubting that he's made some bad calls over the years - in hindsight, the Cavaliers should have gotten someone else or even multiple good role players instead of Kevin Love - but how relevant is that to how good LeBron was at basketball? When we judge a player's greatness, are we strictly staying within the lines or going outside of them? It seems to me that LeBron almost always optimized his team's potential once the games began (with a few obvious exceptions), but maybe not when it came to the front office. But at the same time, Cleveland had the best four-year stretch in franchise history while he was playing GM, so... I dunno, it's confusing.

I somewhat agree about his attitude... He has given up at times. However, there were also times where he kicked into another gear out of desperation (Games 6-7 in 2013, Games 5-7 in 2016), and it ultimately pushed him to levels we've never seen from him before. My theory is that LeBron thinks about the game like a computer. He's always assessing win probability, and when it goes below a certain threshold, he cuts his losses. It's not the most inspiring strategy, but I also don't know that it moved the needle much for his championship count.

I guess what I'm ultimately trying to say is that outside of 2011, and for all of LeBron's flaws, I feel as though his teams ultimately did about as well as they could do. Three championships does indeed feel low for a GOAT candidate, but if you go year by year, it also seems about right for him. Of his 17 years, I only count two where the team flat-out underachieved (2010, 2011) and maybe another two that are sketchy but ultimately explainable (2009, 2014). Just my two cents, as always.

[1993Playoffs]

I thinks he’s #1. I still think he’s show that he’s the best player at 36 whenever he plays again.

[Homer38]

The thing with the cavs is that the cavs were a great team and especially a great offense between 2015 to 2017, but in 2015 the injuries were costly and in 2017 the Warriors were one of the best teams ever.

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

Anyone who thinks that in their best 4-5 year stretches that James was ever as good as Jordan is kidding themselves and doesn't know basketball. If they played at the same time in the same league, Jordan would always clearly have better numbers. If they had equally talented teams and met in a 7-game series 10 times, Jordan wins 7-10 of them.

[NbaAllDay]

Anyone who thinks that in their best 4-5 year stretches that James was ever as good as Jordan is kidding themselves and doesn't know basketball. If they played at the same time in the same league, Jordan would always clearly have better numbers. If they had equally talented teams and met in a 7-game series 10 times, Jordan wins 7-10 of them.

I dont know why you are only choosing 4-5 years here. Even if this was true. Lebron has been elite for a fair bit longer. Maybe the longevitity doesnt mean anything to you, but it does to others.
The rest is just hyperbole

[nolang1]

Anyone who thinks that in their best 4-5 year stretches that James was ever as good as Jordan is kidding themselves and doesn't know basketball. If they played at the same time in the same league, Jordan would always clearly have better numbers. If they had equally talented teams and met in a 7-game series 10 times, Jordan wins 7-10 of them.

I dont know why you are only choosing 4-5 years here. Even if this was true. Lebron has been elite for a fair bit longer. Maybe the longevitity doesnt mean anything to you, but it does to others.
The rest is just hyperbole

Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.

[Narigo]

GOAT

[LKN]

Anyone who thinks that in their best 4-5 year stretches that James was ever as good as Jordan is kidding themselves and doesn't know basketball. If they played at the same time in the same league, Jordan would always clearly have better numbers. If they had equally talented teams and met in a 7-game series 10 times, Jordan wins 7-10 of them.

I dont know why you are only choosing 4-5 years here. Even if this was true. Lebron has been elite for a fair bit longer. Maybe the longevitity doesnt mean anything to you, but it does to others.
The rest is just hyperbole

Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.

That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.

Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6

Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).

While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.

Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.

Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8

OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:

2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)

Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6

We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.

It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.

It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.

[SNPA]

Bird is the only one who had way too shortened of a career when it comes to his prime and injury...and in his case, longetivity does matter because he didn't even have an average length career, IMO. If I'm to be completely honest with you, Bird is my number 2 greatest player of all time... in terms of raw skill and ability. When I say longevity, I mean that it doesn't matter if someone's around for an unusually long time. But take the polar opposite in Derrick Rose - obviously that's way too short, as is T-Mac. Bird's prime is just enough shortened that it effects his overall ranking to me.

But I'm strongly considering putting Bird in my top 3 or 4, after having watched a lot of him lately. He was unbelievable and IMO definitely better than Magic.

As for Kareem? Well, he was an absolute beast and surprised even Wilt with his dominance. He's one of the greatest players of all time, on both ends of the court. He has an incredible resume as well.

To me Bird played long enough to not have longevity hurt him like Rose, etc., a decade is enough.

I have LeBron in tier two which is 4-8. He has a high BBIQ and top notch athleticism but isn’t as natural a player as some others. He has learned to be great, that holds him back some IMO.

Man, I feel similarly. There’s so much potential to be great, but I wish that he was more of a competitive mindset in terms of winning instead of trying to put up great seasons and stats for individual placement on all-time lists, teaming up, giving up when tough and so on. That was a huge turnoff after being a huge fan for seven years.

I also wish that he had done more work on the footwork and intricacies of the game. Having trouble shooting? That I can understand as if it’s very hard to learn. Lebron probably should have reached out to some of the other greats to learn from them (Hakeem, Jordan, whomever). That seems to go a long way for talented players like Lebron (like Kobe and even Melo).

Going back to this, I think LeBron is hurt on an all time ranking because he isn’t a natural basketball player, major parts of the game aren’t instinctual to him. Take his passing, he starts and spends years as a mainly drive and kick player. He was a great one, and yes there was a bit more, but mainly that was his passing acumen. I give him great credit for improving over time and now he can stand out top and pick teams apart. However, that just goes to prove the point that it is a learned skill for him. Other greats like Bird and Magic didn’t have to learn to have great floor vision and creation, they are natural players and could always do it. To them it is innate, not learned. (Lol at the post saying LeBron is a top three passer)

Another example is shooting. LeBron is a learned shooter. His form gives it away. The disrespect the Spurs showed him in the finals with young KL shows that. Pop flat out didn’t respect his jumper. Yes, better than letting him drive but still, just daring the best player in the league to take open shots is a sign and not a positive one for LeBron. Doug Christie has pointed out how LeBron looks down at his feet before shooting some threes (generally when he has the ball in iso). That glance down is a learned trigger allowing him to lineup the shot and his mechanics. Bird didn’t look down. He was a natural shooter.

LeBron is first and foremost a top flight athlete with a high BBIQ. Players like Bird or Magic are instinctual basketball players first. There is a difference and not a small one here. It doesn’t mean LeBron can’t surpass them (he is above Magic IMO because of defense).

However, to be GOAT one should be a supreme natural basketball player that has the key elements of the game come intuitively, a basketball savant able to play any style in any era at the top level of the game. LeBron to me isn’t that guy to me. He needs to play a certain style to be an all time great. Some will say this is a nonsense differentiation, I think at the GOAT level an athlete who plays basketball (learned) vs basketball player (innate) can be a separator.

[NbaAllDay]

I dont know why you are only choosing 4-5 years here. Even if this was true. Lebron has been elite for a fair bit longer. Maybe the longevitity doesnt mean anything to you, but it does to others.
The rest is just hyperbole

Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.

That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.

Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6

Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).

While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.

Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.

Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8

OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:

2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)

Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6

We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.

It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.

It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.

That's for supplying data. And like you said it's never definitive with just 1 or 2 sets of data but it can tell a story. I wonder if some of the data is screwed a bit due to Lebron reaching the playoffs at a younger age and not being able to perform at there GOAT levels. As you've pointed out Lebron at his peak at worse has rivaled MJ. So maybe a bit of context there narrows this potential gap more that first thought. However I don't know exactly what Lebron break down in his early years are so I can say I'm any of that definitively.

[RCM88x]

I dont know why you are only choosing 4-5 years here. Even if this was true. Lebron has been elite for a fair bit longer. Maybe the longevitity doesnt mean anything to you, but it does to others.
The rest is just hyperbole

Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.

That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.

Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6

Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).

While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.

Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.

Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8

OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:

2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)

Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6

We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.

It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.

It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.

The funny part about all these numbers is, if you posted them a few months ago Lebron would have had the lead in a lot of these cases, especially in DBPM.

Take a look at this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200206154123/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

vs. this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212084547/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

So which is right? Ehh probably neither lmao.

[LKN]

Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.

That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.

Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6

Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).

While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.

Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.

Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8

OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:

2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)

Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6

We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.

It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.

It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.

That's for supplying data. And like you said it's never definitive with just 1 or 2 sets of data but it can tell a story. I wonder if some of the data is screwed a bit due to Lebron reaching the playoffs at a younger age and not being able to perform at there GOAT levels. As you've pointed out Lebron at his peak at worse has rivaled MJ. So maybe a bit of context there narrows this potential gap more that first thought. However I don't know exactly what Lebron break down in his early years are so I can say I'm any of that definitively.

Actually there's something to that. MJ was basically super elite on offense in the playoffs from day 1. His rookie season is the 2nd worse of his career - but LBJ has 6 seasons worse than that on offense including ALL of his pre-2009 seasons. LBJ took a huge leap in 2009; he wasn't the same postseason player we see today prior to that.

MJ also really only had one really down year in the postseason during his career (1995) where LBJ has been less consistent. 2011 really sticks out here, but years like 2015 were somewhat down too (but to be clear - it's a down year only by MJ/LeBron standards. Lebron's "down years" are still better than most other non-MJ player's better/best seasons)

Setting aside the debate between MJ and LeBron.... what is pretty clear looking at the data is that MJ/LeBron are clearly the two best offensive players in league history (that we have data for). There's no one else particularly close to the two of them

I personally think they are likely the 2 best players period - but defensive metrics aren't nearly as good as offensive metrics.... so it's a bit harder to be definitive there.

[LKN]

Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.

That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.

Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6

Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).

While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.

Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.

Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8

OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:

2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)

Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6

We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.

It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.

It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.

The funny part about all these numbers is, if you posted them a few months ago Lebron would have had the lead in a lot of these cases, especially in DBPM.

Take a look at this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200206154123/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

vs. this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212084547/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

So which is right? Ehh probably neither lmao.

Yeah - they just did a big recalc. To be fair - MJ has always led in OBPM - which is the better metric (and generally has good correlation)

BPM and DBPM are more dubious.

But definitely fair to point out that it's only one metric. I do think it tells us that MJ and LeBron are the 2 best offensive players ever. The gap is large enough that I feel pretty confident that is correct.

[RCM88x]

That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.

Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6

Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).

While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.

Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.

Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8

OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:

2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)

Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6

We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.

It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.

It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.

The funny part about all these numbers is, if you posted them a few months ago Lebron would have had the lead in a lot of these cases, especially in DBPM.

Take a look at this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200206154123/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

vs. this: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212084547/https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

So which is right? Ehh probably neither lmao.

Yeah - they just did a big recalc. To be fair - MJ has always led in OBPM - which is the better metric (and generally has good correlation)

BPM and DBPM are more dubious.

But definitely fair to point out that it's only one metric. I do think it tells us that MJ and LeBron are the 2 best offensive players ever. The gap is large enough that I feel pretty confident that is correct.

Perhaps, I do think Magic and Nash deserve to be in that argument too. BPM just favors box scores and certainly scoring so alas it arrives at this conclusion.

[Bergmaniac]

To me Bird played long enough to not have longevity hurt him like Rose, etc., a decade is enough.

I have LeBron in tier two which is 4-8. He has a high BBIQ and top notch athleticism but isn’t as natural a player as some others. He has learned to be great, that holds him back some IMO.

Man, I feel similarly. There’s so much potential to be great, but I wish that he was more of a competitive mindset in terms of winning instead of trying to put up great seasons and stats for individual placement on all-time lists, teaming up, giving up when tough and so on. That was a huge turnoff after being a huge fan for seven years.

I also wish that he had done more work on the footwork and intricacies of the game. Having trouble shooting? That I can understand as if it’s very hard to learn. Lebron probably should have reached out to some of the other greats to learn from them (Hakeem, Jordan, whomever). That seems to go a long way for talented players like Lebron (like Kobe and even Melo).

Going back to this, I think LeBron is hurt on an all time ranking because he isn’t a natural basketball player, major parts of the game aren’t instinctual to him. Take his passing, he starts and spends years as a mainly drive and kick player. He was a great one, and yes there was a bit more, but mainly that was his passing acumen. I give him great credit for improving over time and now he can stand out top and pick teams apart. However, that just goes to prove the point that it is a learned skill for him. Other greats like Bird and Magic didn’t have to learn to have great floor vision and creation, they are natural players and could always do it. To them it is innate, not learned. (Lol at the post saying LeBron is a top three passer)

Another example is shooting. LeBron is a learned shooter. His form gives it away. The disrespect the Spurs showed him in the finals with young KL shows that. Pop flat out didn’t respect his jumper. Yes, better than letting him drive but still, just daring the best player in the league to take open shots is a sign and not a positive one for LeBron. Doug Christie has pointed out how LeBron looks down at his feet before shooting some threes (generally when he has the ball in iso). That glance down is a learned trigger allowing him to lineup the shot and his mechanics. Bird didn’t look down. He was a natural shooter.

LeBron is first and foremost a top flight athlete with a high BBIQ. Players like Bird or Magic are instinctual basketball players first. There is a difference and not a small one here. It doesn’t mean LeBron can’t surpass them (he is above Magic IMO because of defense).

However, to be GOAT one should be a supreme natural basketball player that has the key elements of the game come intuitively, a basketball savant able to play any style in any era at the top level of the game. LeBron to me isn’t that guy to me. He needs to play a certain style to be an all time great. Some will say this is a nonsense differentiation, I think at the GOAT level an athlete who plays basketball (learned) vs basketball player (innate) can be a separator.

This is a weird post. Nobody is born knowing how to shoot or pass a basketball. Nobody has instincts for playing basketball.