NbaAllDay wrote: LKN wrote:
Yeah and even then if you put LeBron’s 4, 5, 6, whatever best postseasons against Jordan’s there’s basically no difference. You could say Jordan had a more sustained peak of regular season dominance that came at the cost of burning himself out and not having as much longevity. The game is simply contested at a much higher level overall these days that LeBron or a clone of Jordan or any other human is going to have to have some games off or play reduced minutes if they want to be dominant in the postseason.
That's really not true - MJ has a decided edge in consistently elite postseason play IMO.
Career postseason BPM: MJ - 11.1, Lebron - 10.2
Career postseason OBPM: MJ - 8.8, Lebron - 7.6
Those are not small gaps (ex for OBPM - The gap between MJ and LBJ is about the same as the gap between LBJ and Curry).
While Lebron's absolutely peak runs definitely rival MJs - MJ has more super elite seasons.
Lebron has the highest BPM season (2009) at 17.5, but after that MJ dominates the high level runs.
Runs over 12 BPM: MJ - 5 (6 if you count his 11.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 11 BPM: MJ - 7, LBJ - 4
Runs over 10 BPM: MJ - 8 (10 if you count his 2 9.9 runs), LBJ 8
OBPM is generally a better metric than BPM:
2009 is again the best season for either at 12.8 (freakish run really... kudos to LBJ)
Runs over 10 OBPM: MJ - 3 (4 if you count a 9.9 run), LBJ - 2
Runs over 9 OPBM: MJ - 6, LBJ -2
Runs over 8 OBPM: MJ - 11, LBJ - 6
We can stop there since that's 11/13 MJ seasons.
It's very fair to point out that this is only one metric (well more like 1.5 but whatever) and people can totally dismiss it if they want, but it's telling that MJ is just consistently better.
It's also fair to point out that LBJ shouldn't be knocked here... his numbers are dominant and #3 is far from him.
That's for supplying data. And like you said it's never definitive with just 1 or 2 sets of data but it can tell a story. I wonder if some of the data is screwed a bit due to Lebron reaching the playoffs at a younger age and not being able to perform at there GOAT levels. As you've pointed out Lebron at his peak at worse has rivaled MJ. So maybe a bit of context there narrows this potential gap more that first thought. However I don't know exactly what Lebron break down in his early years are so I can say I'm any of that definitively.
Thing is, Jordan's elite level was more elite. IMO it was much more elite.
And he was on top for a long time. I'll back this up with stats down below.
If justice were served and it was based on playing at an elite level, Jordan would have won Most Valuable Player every year except for 2 seasons- rookie year and his return year where he played few games, and his all-time leading MVP shares is an indication of that. Jordan, who won five MVP awards, has a 8.138 MVP share rate. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is closest at 6.203. LeBron James leads active players at 4.389.
Jordan's 9 1st team defensive selections is the most ever. He failed to score 20 points in only 6 of 179 playoff games. In 35 finals games, his single lowest scoring game was 22.
Excluding the players on the 50s and 60s Celtics teams the only player with more championships than Jordan is Robert Horry. Of those 6 rings, Jordan was Finals MVP all 6 times. Jordan has the most Finals MVP awards, and the next closest players only have 3.
Michael Jordan won the MVP on five distinct occasions: 1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998. In both 1993 and 1997, voters were just tired of picking him as the MVP, and voted for two subpar players with subpar stats in Charles Barkley and Karl Malone. Jordan should have 7 MVPs.
Just look at their stats:
Barkley 1993: 25.6 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 5.1 APG, 1.6 SPG
Jordan 1993: 32.6 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 5.5 APG, League Leader in Steals (2.8), 1st Team All-NBA
Malone 1997: 27.0 PPG, 10.3 RPG, 3.9 APG, 1st Team All-Defense
Jordan 1997: 29.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1st Team All-Defense, Finals MVP
(Since we're going down the Lebron Jordan route)
Jordan vs LeBron
Most trophies -
Jordan - 22
Bill Russell - 17
Kareem - 15
Lebron - 14
After Lebron's 14th season. Michael Jordan had:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / Lebron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…
All-star appearances while playing with Jordan:
Scottie Pippen 6
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in finals
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in finals
All-star appearances while playing with Magic:
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in finals
All star appearances playing with Shaq:
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
All-star appearances while playing with Lebron
Mo Williams 1
6 players, 15 appearances = 3/9 in Finals
All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:
3 players, 11 appearances, 5/6 in finals
All-star appearances while playing with Bird:
Tiny Archibald 3
Dennis Johnson 1
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals
You can't try to say Lebron has been more consistent or more elite. He has not. Lebron's had many great performances, so much against him as well, with the recent sweep, multiple slaughters... when he faces all-time great players, his resume isn't the best. Dwight, Durant, Dirk (Terry...), and so on. He has hobbled Steph and a younger Durant beaten.
If you were to take all of the stats, accolades, etc that could be compared between Jordan and Lebron, it's a slaughter. The problem is that it's advanced stats that favor ball-dominant players and over-reliance on Lebron that are continually brought up, and even those are close. Otherwise? It's triple double stats that really don't mean that much other than Lebron's one of the greatest ever. But in this comparison? It means little to nothing, especially considering the era and role Lebron plays. Heck, Durant basically had similar stats to Lebron with fewer assists and way better scoring numbers over the last 2 finals. There's plenty of evidence that modern stats are blown up.