nolang1 wrote:bledredwine wrote:NbaAllDay wrote:
That's for supplying data. And like you said it's never definitive with just 1 or 2 sets of data but it can tell a story. I wonder if some of the data is screwed a bit due to Lebron reaching the playoffs at a younger age and not being able to perform at there GOAT levels. As you've pointed out Lebron at his peak at worse has rivaled MJ. So maybe a bit of context there narrows this potential gap more that first thought. However I don't know exactly what Lebron break down in his early years are so I can say I'm any of that definitively.
Thing is, Jordan's elite level was more elite. IMO it was much more elite.
And he was on top for a long time. I'll back this up with stats down below.
If justice were served and it was based on playing at an elite level, Jordan would have won Most Valuable Player every year except for 2 seasons- rookie year and his return year where he played few games, and his all-time leading MVP shares is an indication of that. Jordan, who won five MVP awards, has a 8.138 MVP share rate. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is closest at 6.203. LeBron James leads active players at 4.389.
Jordan's 9 1st team defensive selections is the most ever. He failed to score 20 points in only 6 of 179 playoff games. In 35 finals games, his single lowest scoring game was 22.
Excluding the players on the 50s and 60s Celtics teams the only player with more championships than Jordan is Robert Horry. Of those 6 rings, Jordan was Finals MVP all 6 times. Jordan has the most Finals MVP awards, and the next closest players only have 3.
Michael Jordan won the MVP on five distinct occasions: 1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998. In both 1993 and 1997, voters were just tired of picking him as the MVP, and voted for two subpar players with subpar stats in Charles Barkley and Karl Malone. Jordan should have 7 MVPs.
Just look at their stats:
Barkley 1993: 25.6 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 5.1 APG, 1.6 SPG
Jordan 1993: 32.6 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 5.5 APG, League Leader in Steals (2.8), 1st Team All-NBA
Malone 1997: 27.0 PPG, 10.3 RPG, 3.9 APG, 1st Team All-Defense
Jordan 1997: 29.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1st Team All-Defense, Finals MVP
(Since we're going down the Lebron Jordan route)
Jordan vs LeBron
Most trophies -
Jordan - 22
Bill Russell - 17
Kareem - 15
Lebron - 14
After Lebron's 14th season. Michael Jordan had:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / Lebron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…
All-star appearances while playing with Jordan:
Scottie Pippen 6
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in finals
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in finals
All-star appearances while playing with Magic:
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in finals
All star appearances playing with Shaq:
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
All-star appearances while playing with Lebron
Mo Williams 1
6 players, 15 appearances = 3/9 in Finals
All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:
3 players, 11 appearances, 5/6 in finals
All-star appearances while playing with Bird:
Tiny Archibald 3
Dennis Johnson 1
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals
You can't try to say Lebron has been more consistent or more elite. He has not. Lebron's had many great performances, so much against him as well, with the recent sweep, multiple slaughters... when he faces all-time great players, his resume isn't the best. Dwight, Durant, Dirk (Terry...), and so on. He has hobbled Steph and a younger Durant beaten.
If you were to take all of the stats, accolades, etc that could be compared between Jordan and Lebron, it's a slaughter. The problem is that it's advanced stats that favor ball-dominant players and over-reliance on Lebron that are continually brought up, and even those are close. Otherwise? It's triple double stats that really don't mean that much other than Lebron's one of the greatest ever. But in this comparison? It means little to nothing, especially considering the era and role Lebron plays. Heck, Durant basically had similar stats to Lebron with fewer assists and way better scoring numbers over the last 2 finals. There's plenty of evidence that modern stats are blown up.
So this boils down to Jordan playing on better teams and Jordan being more of a pure scorer (in an era where the rules were friendlier to 1v1 play and teams couldn’t fully commit to stopping one guy from scoring). LeBron also had additional seasons where he was clearly the best player and could’ve been awarded MVP; frankly if you use the same logic that was used to deny LeBron a few MVPs (yeah he’s the best player but the MVP is a regular season award and he’s clearly holding something back for the playoffs) then the players that won MVP over Jordan make sense as well; in my mind they’d both have more MVPs, but those accolades don’t mean much compared to actually being the best player, which is proven in the postseason. And again, you can’t point to Jordan’s regular season accolades without acknowledging that he took a year and a half off in the midst of his prime and didn’t do anything particularly noteworthy after age 35. If LeBron were to drastically fall off and be at best a borderline all-star player next year and going forward rather than an MVP candidate I’d be perfectly willing to concede Jordan had a better career.
When accolades like all-star appearances and MVP voting are determined by people who aren’t too smart and default to things like points per game, of course the players who are better at getting their teammates involved on offense are going to play with more all-star teammates and lose MVPs to players who score more points per game. The whole point I was making about Jordan was that he had to have an outstanding defensive big like Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman (both of whom were better than Kevin Love or Chris Bosh overall and were definitely better than Wade was after his first year with LeBron) for his team to win championships, and players like that just didn’t make all-star teams back then.
Jordan is 24-11 in the finals dude. Lebron is 18-31. You can't just attribute that to teams. That's such a ridiculous difference. 24-11 in the finals is insane. We also know for a fact that Jordan got the best of his match-ups, by far, every series and that Lebron has not in 4 of his finals series. 4 out of 9- that's individual play I'm speaking of, not team, and Jordan has the upper-hand on both. Then you consider that all of Jordan's championships were 3-peats... in a row, with him performing at that highest level as lead dog every single time, and it makes that all that more impressive. 6 championships in 8 years.. with 2 years of retirement. And sure, a small portion of another season where he had few games to get back in shape from baseball, but the point stands. Even then, he bolstered the Bulls from a 31-39 record to finish .666 for the rest of the season, despite being a shell of his former self.
And for your comment on establishing dominance, records, winning? So we've established that Jordan has the clearly better resume. We know that already. But that's the thing.
... he also dominates most of the stats as well, advanced included, and poses far fewer weaknesses. We can also admit that his intangibles on the defensive end and in practice are better (holding teammates accountable, making practices insanely competitive). Anyone who disagrees with that last sentence? I can't even talk with because we've seen Lebron's teams on defense and how often he doesn't hold them accountable. We've seen them goofing off in the past as well. And we know how Jordan treated the seriousness of competition, and their records reflect that.
So some fun advanced stats
Jordan has led the league in winshares 8 times. Lebron 5 times.
Jordan has finished in the top 3 in winshares 11 times. Lebron 6 times.
In winshares per 48 minutes, Jordan has the highest career rating in both the regular season and the playoffs.
In box plus/minus, Jordan has 1st in that as well. This is after the adjustment to make it more accurate due to Westbrook posting the best box plus/minus, revealing flaws.
Gamescore measures production in a single game. Jordan has 19 of the top 100 of all time. 1 out of every 5 best single game performances over the last 40 years was by Jordan. He also has the highest with his 69 and 19 performance against Cleveland. Lebron only has 3.
Rebounds? Clearly forwards and centers grab more than guards, especially in the 90s. Even Westbrook is dominating the boards.
Compared to other SG's to play at least 500 games in the history of the game, Jordan ranks
1st in points
4th in assists
3rd in rebounds
3rd in steals
3rd in blocks
9th in FG%
He's near the top in every category and aside from assists, Lebron is well behind Jordan in each of these categories (exception 2nd in scoring at SF).
Jordan is the only guard to rank top 5 in steals per game and blocks per game.
He also led his position in defensive win shares 10 times, practically every year that he played for the Bulls.
Lebron has led his position in winshares on just 4 occasions, and for the last 7 seasons, didn't even crack the top 10 for winshares at his position.
Now in terms of flaws,
What can you really point out about Jordan for flaws in his game?
More than 1 of 3 of Lebron's shots come from from 0-3 feet from the baskets, including fast break dunks and the like. He's great at this.
But when he has to shoot past 3 feet?
Lebron's shooting percentage is:
IN the playoffs?
Close and late situations?
In the last 2 minutes of the game when the score is within 5 points,
Plenty of this is posted in the following video
IN THE CLUTCH
Finally, what is said about clutch. Everyone quotes these tiny clutch samples to try and call Lebron great in the clutch. While he's awesome at getting to the rim in the last several minutes (in that regard, I'll say he IS clutch), his tight situation abilities are severely lacking (I.E. when defense clamps down and his path to the basket is taken away).
5 seconds to go in the 4th or overtime, and your team needs a bucket to tie or win the game.
In the regular season and playoffs combined, Lebron has taken 94 shots, a large sample size.
Lebron has made 19 of those.
In the same situation? Jordan shot roughly 50 percent.
Aside from this, as mentioned above, Close and late situations?
In the last 2 minutes of the game when the score is within 5 points,
Lebron is 31.9 percent from midrange, and doesn't shoot well from the line,
which confirms everything I've been saying about Lebron's midrange game being
a damper in the clutch. These stats just confirmed it to me.
I'll be frank and honest. To me, this isn't a comparison and hasn't been. I've been holding these stats with the wish that I don't have to use them, because I know they bother fans of Lebron (and I honestly don't like to do that). But these are facts and there's so much in Jordan's favor in this comparison, that the evidence is overwhelming. None of these stats (or very few at the most) are arbitrary, like you can say about triple double numbers and such in this particular comparison. This is what happens when your goal is to win all the time and not to be better than Jordan as an individual first and foremost, which was my original criticism of Lebron. If he had made winning a die-hard priority? Who knows what his career would have looked like, in practices, in games, etc. But he's made it obvious that he's not as competitive as he is trying to live up to the number one legacy, via any type of assimilating- creating super teams, tampering in free agency, proclaiming titles before playing a single game, quitting multiple times, refusing to defend the other team's great superstar in the finals, proclaiming himself GOAT after a 73 win team's main reason they won 73 is hobbled, had a 10 Gamescore to Harden's 19 the series prior, only having played 2 games before facing Lebron, and so on. Lebron's own point guard teammate crushed Steph in that series. Point being? There's a lot of false narrative here.