Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list?

[freethedevil]

Maybe I missed something in the arguments, but that’s pretty tough competiton i mean guys like Hakeem and Malone arguably peaked in their early 30s, Shaq was already dominant at age 22 etc. That’s not watered down competiton.

May have missed this:

Defending this with "they're all time great's" is really just running away since we're not comparing players relative to era, we're comparing eras, so hanging your hat on how they excelled in their eras is rather pointless. Something that is consistent through basketball(and sports really),(with the notable exception of the exansion weakened league) and hence can actually be used in an era comparison is that players almost always peak physically from 24-28 with an overlap in experience allowing for that to extend to 30.

Watered down or not watered down is not something that can be supported by listing in-era accomplishments.

You were the one that called it watered down .

And you're saying that it wasn't. That's as much a claim as what I said.

top level competition

I'm sorry, did you see this top level competition perform better or comprably in 2020? If not, then it doesn't matter.

Your reasoning is entirely era dependent, biology is not. The latter has relevance when comparing eras, the former does not. If you don't want to get involved in a discussion of eras, then don't, but saying "the league wasn't weaker" is a claim, and such claims warrant relevant evidence supporting it.

[freethedevil]

It is absolutely 100% irrelevant what age a player is.

Actually it's entirely relevant when we're discussing the effects of expansion.

this senseless discussion

This discussion seems senseless because you decided to wade into it with zero context. We're specifically discussing era strength, so things like "this player played really good in 2004" means absolutely nothing.

[freethedevil]

Is
No player from pre-2000s era would have said something like what LeBron says in this interview. Imagine MJ saying this garbage after losing a game?

Jordan cost his team a lottery pick(Imagine if kg had that luxury) in 1986. Wilt got traded for spare parts because he made a fuss about ownership and then managed to make a 60 win team play 50 win basketball.

Have you like, any concept of history?

[Hal14]

Is this your GOAT?

https://www.opencourt-basketball.com/lebron-james-after-game-1-loss-its-different-this-is-a-game-with-no-fans/?fbclid=IwAR0kvflCrXges37YRbA74vhyrDG9TnAsfqh4fkXw3qpm3nbFIgqTalMn-C4

Wow, this interview is honestly a pathetic display by LeBron. He simply refuses to accept any responsibility/blame for the Lakers losing. He makes excuses, saying that in this environment (with no fans) it doesn't count. He says he's in the bubble, he's not at home, he's not in his own bed, and saying that's why they lost. Umm, dude, newsflash! It's the same environment for everyone! Every team and every player is in the same environment in the bubble! The Blazers aren't sleeping in their own beds either! No one has an advantage, it's a level playing field! This is such BS and terrible leadership.

Is he serious with this interview? Is he that stupid that he thinks he's the only one dealing with these circumstances? He's the only one who isn't in his own bed, he's the only one not in his regular practice facility, that he's the only one playing with no fans? Is he really that dumb that he doesn't realize that it's the same for every player and every team in the bubble?

He's just trying to save face and protect his legacy, in case the Lakers lose the series to the Blazers..because he knows how much it'll hurt his legacy if he loses as a no. 1 seed to an 8 seed..

No player from pre-2000s era would have said something like what LeBron says in this interview. Imagine MJ saying this garbage after losing a game?

You should really quit it with this armchair psychology. It's not a good look.

Not to mention he didn't say he was the only one who's facing these circumstances. It only takes common sense to understand that the bubble, while the same environment for everyone, impacts people differently. LeBron is like the biggest family guy in the NBA, it stands to reason he misses his family a lot and maybe that impacts his play. Do you think LeBron's and Harden's personal situations are the same just because they're in a bubble? One has 3 kids and the other frequents night clubs. Like let's think critically for a second. There's a reason he said "me personally." You have some gall to call him stupid and make all these random accusations. When did he say this environment "doesn't count"?? When did he blame the loss on the bubble situation exactly? I think if you asked any Laker directly on why they lost, they would point out the 5-32 shooting night from 3...

Just wait for him to lose so you can peddle this nonsense lol because right now it looks ridiculous. I even agree that him openly complaining about it does seem very excuse-y, but you just took it to another level. You clearly cannot maintain any objectivity when it comes to LeBron.

Anyone with half a brain/basketball knowledge would interpret this interview the same way I did - I'm not exactly reaching with my assessment.

It's a thread about where LeBron ranks on the GOAT list...I'm simply saying that the significant lack of leadership he shows here - and has shown time and time again throughout his career (quitting on his team not once but FIVE times, getting multiple coaches fired, having starstar teammates demand to be traded off his team, etc.) has got to be factored in to his ranking on the ATG list IMO. It's a public forum and I have freedom of speech..if you don't like what I say, keep scrolling.

And your comment about "oh, he has kids so it's perfectly ok for him to say that not seeing his family is an excuse for his team losing" lol give me a break. These are professional athletes. This is what they get paid millions of dollars to do. Not seeing their family for extended periods of time simply comes with the territory for any pro athlete.

And saying "oh, it's gonna effect Harden less than LeBron being in the bubble, because he goes to clubs and LeBron has a family" lol oh man, this is rich. a) One could argue that being in the bubble would also effect Harden if he can't have his normal partying lifestyle, he's mentally not with it as much because he's stuck in the bubble with nothing to do, he's bored, going crazy without being able to have the same partying lifestyle as he normally does" but then we're going down a path which is a ridiculous argument.

Bottom line, LeBron in this interview looks like a cry baby, looks like he is making a lame BS excuse for his team losing to the 8 seed and not taking any blame/responsibility for it.

Sorry he's not the super hero you thought he was.

[Texas Chuck]

It is absolutely 100% irrelevant what age a player is.

Actually it's entirely relevant when we're discussing the effects of expansion.

this senseless discussion

This discussion seems senseless because you decided to wade into it with zero context. We're specifically discussing era strength, so things like "this player played really good in 2004" means absolutely nothing.

Yeah time machine analysis is also senseless. Especially when you are resorting to counting the number of old MVP candidates. I mean what?

Besides each historical player only could play in the era they were in. Absolutely pointless and unfair to attempt to hold that against any player.

[HeartBreakKid]

Sorry he's not the super hero you thought he was.

You're right, he's an actual person.

You're using the word superhero in a world where people think Michael Jordan is a perfect person and was literally marketed as a super hero.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProStars

[Hal14]

Is
No player from pre-2000s era would have said something like what LeBron says in this interview. Imagine MJ saying this garbage after losing a game?

Jordan cost his team a lottery pick(Imagine if kg had that luxury) in 1986. Wilt got traded for spare parts because he made a fuss about ownership and then managed to make a 60 win team play 50 win basketball.

Have you like, any concept of history?

Enlighten me, how exactly did Jordan do that in 1986? The Bulls took Brad Sellers with a lottery pick in 86. Also in 86, Jordan came back after missing most of the season, with sensational play he carried a bunch of bums to the playoffs and put on one of the best performances in NBA history by scoring 63 on arguably the greatest team ever (the 86 Celtics) and took them to overtime that game. If you're saying he should have not come back from injury so the Bulls lose more games and got another lottery pick, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You play to win the game. Tanking games is never a good idea, sends the complete wrong message to the team.

As for Wilt, what you mention is correct and for that I do rank him slightly lower all-time. But that was 1 incident, whereas with LeBron this is a recurring pattern. You not only have this incident with LeBron, but you also have 5 times where he's quit on his team, multiple coaches he's gotten fired, multiple teammates who have demanded to be traded off his team, his meltdown in the 2011 NBA finals, the time he stuck his leg out to trip an opposing player who was driving to the basket, constant flopping, etc. It would be different if this was the first time LeBron pulled something like this.

[Hal14]

You're right, he's an actual person.

You're using the word superhero in a world where people think Michael Jordan is a perfect person and was literally marketed as a super hero.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProStars

I don't care what other people think. I never said Jordan is a perfect person and I'm talking about LeBron here, not Jordan.

[Texas Chuck]

You're right, he's an actual person.

You're using the word superhero in a world where people think Michael Jordan is a perfect person and was literally marketed as a super hero.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProStars

I don't care what other people think. I never said Jordan is a perfect person and I'm talking about LeBron here, not Jordan.

Considering all your posts extolling Jordan and using phrases like "carried a bunch of bums" while dismissing Lebron as "crybaby" methinks you might not be coming totally clean here.

HBK is totally right -- you guys have turned Michael Jordan into a myth and so of course you are going to be disappointed when you encounter Lebron who is a living breathing human being before your very eyes.

[Owly]

I agree with your premise that Sam Cassell is basically in his prime still despite being 34, but saying he's a top ten guy so casually and sternly seems overboard. I've never heard someone say Sam Cassell is better than Paul Pierce, and Paul Pierce might have been a top ten player one time in his entire career.

I concede I should have made my point without adding top 10. The important thing is how a player is playing is what matters no his age. I just used Cassell because he is the player whose age is most commonly attached in an effort to diminish his level of play.

I could also have used Chris Paul from this season, but Cassell is literally written as 34 year old Sam Cassell its almost like its a hotkey.

I get the point and at the individual level you look at the standard of play. At the same time levels of productivity came against a given level of opposition and there is a some argument for looking if many players are holding on to top "ranks" beyond what was considered typical prime years in the broader era is it because the next semi-generation wasn't so good?

And in the case cited looking at mid-ish 90s MVP competition ... '86-91 I'd argue there's only one centerpiece superstar coming out (Robinson ... maybe some would argue for Miller or Pippen or Mutombo or Payton, though the latter is at the back end of the window and emerged somewhat late anyhow).
'86: https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1986.html
'87: https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1987.html
'88: https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1988.html
'89: https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1989.html
'90: https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1990.html
'91: https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1991.html

Of course one could argue that such players failed to standout because of the outstandingness of Jordan, Olajuwon, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing et al. So I'm not sure about the viability of statistically measuring levels of play in specific years objectively (seen attempts at this but per above is player X getting worse than expected based on age and performance a result of him getting worse or opponents getting better ... is a more productive league evidence of better O or worse D etc) ...

Looking at the demographic, population, participation and level of international play [and scouting and availability e.g. "iron curtain"] does seem legitimate.

TLDR
- "34 year old Sam Cassell" is stupid.
- If - similar to expansion - there is a dilution of talent by young not replacing old outgoing talent the surrounding years on either side might be more productive and look better than they absolutely are when the "lost generation" should be in their prime. Thus it can be legitimate to at least look into if many "not conventional prime year" players are elite, though of course you also have to look at who those players are and this can be framed/interpreted in different ways.
- I can't see stats measuring league standards well, this could just be me though.
- Demographic and related stuff is useful.
- Looking at player ages systematically and seriously, in context is okay, reducing them to just their age is dumb.

[syrus3]

Somewhere in the 6-10 range.

[freethedevil]

Actually it's entirely relevant when we're discussing the effects of expansion.

This discussion seems senseless because you decided to wade into it with zero context. We're specifically discussing era strength, so things like "this player played really good in 2004" means absolutely nothing.

Yeah time machine analysis is also senseless.

"this discussion is senseless". If it's senseless why get involved then?

THere's nothing inherently "right" about relative to era comparison. Gatekeeping is gatekeeping. The question is did expansion make the mid-late 90's weaker, and there's been plenty of eveidence givejnj the 90's was weaker Deal with the evidence or let people talk about what they want in peace.

[freethedevil]

Is
No player from pre-2000s era would have said something like what LeBron says in this interview. Imagine MJ saying this garbage after losing a game?

Jordan cost his team a lottery pick(Imagine if kg had that luxury) in 1986. Wilt got traded for spare parts because he made a fuss about ownership and then managed to make a 60 win team play 50 win basketball.

Have you like, any concept of history?

You play to win the title. And jordan managed to both antagonize a very valuable gm, and cost his team a potentially valuable piece for roster building. Luckily for him, his gm was the best in the league and managed to get a superstar signed to a vet minimum. Anyone who looks at the impact of what lebron and/or jordan did off the court and comes to the conclusion jordan's behavior was more helpful really isn't looking. All of Jordan's major teammates hold him in contempt, and his "motivation" only worked on role players with big men responding by blowing him off.

Pushing people to work hard towards their interest is PART of leadership, but a crucial apart is aligning people's interests with yours, and its painfully evident, jordan had no facilities for the second leaving it to pippen. Jordan was able to do the first part, sometimes, but that's hardly suffecient to be a leader. Jordan' was clearly closer to kyrie than russell when it came to leadership saved both by being one of the greatest on court talents and having an incrediby stacked team. Getting Pippen as cheap as they did is quite similar if less dramatic to getting kd from a cap spike. And thanks to the cheap contract, it's far more sustainable

[Texas Chuck]

This discussion seems senseless because you decided to wade into it with zero context. We're specifically discussing era strength, so things like "this player played really good in 2004" means absolutely nothing.

Yeah time machine analysis is also senseless.

"this discussion is senseless". If it's senseless why get involved then?

THere's nothing inherently "right" about relative to era comparison. Gatekeeping is gatekeeping. The question is did expansion make the mid-late 90's weaker, and there's been plenty of eveidence givejnj the 90's was weaker Deal with the evidence or let people talk about what they want in peace.

Help me understand this. You are trying to stop me from having a say(multiple times now mind you) while accusing me of not letting you talk---when I've never remotely suggested you couldn't? I'm really struggling to follow that.

You have talked and talked and talked about it. I'm allowed to believe that judging players by their age is stupid. Because it is. I'm allowed to think that time machine analysis has no value. Because it has no value.

Now if you want to claim one era weaker than the other for whatever reason, including expansion knock yourself the hell out. Just don't penalize individual players for it because they didn't get to choose their era. You do get that right? Jordan didn't get to choose to play in the 80's and 90's. Lebron didn't get to choose the 00's. Kareem didn't get to choose the 70's and 80's. They have no control over it so penalizing any of them for it is just ridiculous and patently unfair.

Now I'll shut up since that's what you want---and let me be clear you are quite welcome to talk about whatever you want. Just understand you being allowed to talk about it doesn't make you free from potential criticism.

[Hal14]

Jordan cost his team a lottery pick(Imagine if kg had that luxury) in 1986. Wilt got traded for spare parts because he made a fuss about ownership and then managed to make a 60 win team play 50 win basketball.

Have you like, any concept of history?

You play to win the title. And jordan managed to both antagonize a very valuable gm, and cost his team a potentially valuable piece for roster building. Luckily for him, his gm was the best in the league and managed to get a superstar signed to a vet minimum. Anyone who looks at the impact of what lebron and/or jordan did off the court and comes to the conclusion jordan's behavior was more helpful really isn't looking. All of Jordan's major teammates hold him in contempt, and his "motivation" only worked on role players with big men responding by blowing him off.

Pushing people to work hard towards their interest is PART of leadership, but a crucial apart is aligning people's interests with yours, and its painfully evident, jordan had no facilities for the second leaving it to pippen. Jordan was able to do the first part, sometimes, but that's hardly suffecient to be a leader. Jordan' was clearly closer to kyrie than russell when it came to leadership saved both by being one of the greatest on court talents and having an incrediby stacked team. Getting Pippen as cheap as they did is quite similar if less dramatic to getting kd from a cap spike. And thanks to the cheap contract, it's far more sustainable

Interesting conspiracy theory..I'm not buyin it!

1) ALL of Jordan's major teammates hold him in contempt? Literally all of them, really? Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Cartwright, Paxson, Harper, Longley, Kukoc...you're saying they ALL hate him? Prove it.

2) Jordan pushed every one of those guys I just listed to be better than they ever thought they could be. Jordan and Pippen formed the ultimate duo. Watching those 2 guys play together was like basketball bliss. They played on opposite teams everyday in practice, which elevated both of their games. You get better by playing against the best, and it's safe to say Pippen was a much better player because he played with Jordan all of those years. While one of the best players LeBron ever played with (Kyrie) demanded a trade because of LeBron, Pippen would have never dreamed to demand a trade off the Bulls because of Jordan. He asked to be traded in the 97-98 season, but not because of Jordan, it was because of the GM. The fact that despite Pip's burning hatred for Krause, Pip STILL came back to the team and finished out that season, that speaks volumes for Jordan. Pip knew his best chance to win a title was with Jordan, he knew he is a much better player when he plays with Jordan and the 2 of them were so good together on the court and had a bond off the court, he came back to the team.

3) Only thing I'll agree with you on is that Jordan isn't on Russell's level in terms of leadership. Nobody is. All things considered, Russell was the ultimate leader in team sports. But saying Jordan is closer to Kyrie than he is to Russell when it comes to leadership, c'mon, you have got to be kidding with that one. What a joke...now that I re-read that statement, I feel like your post isn't even worth responding too..

4) LeBron has literally quit on his team 5 different times during his career..he's gotten multiple coaches fired, multiple star teammates demanded to be traded off his team, bounces around from team to team to join which ever super team gives him the best chance to win...makes excuses like "there's no fans and I'm not sleeping in my bed at home" for why his team loses a playoff game, has to be literally pushed by teammates in order to play defense, got fined $5,000 for flopping, etc. We're comparing apples to oranges here with him and MJ..

Watch on YouTube

[freethedevil]

Yeah time machine analysis is also senseless.

"this discussion is senseless". If it's senseless why get involved then?

THere's nothing inherently "right" about relative to era comparison. Gatekeeping is gatekeeping. The question is did expansion make the mid-late 90's weaker, and there's been plenty of eveidence givejnj the 90's was weaker Deal with the evidence or let people talk about what they want in peace.

Help me understand this. You are trying to stop me from having a say

Huh? Did I take down your sever or some ****? I criticized how you entered the discussion. Seems like you’re the one who can’t handle being criticized.

Because it is.

To you.

Because it has no value.

To you.

A better question is why you would expect me to care what you think when I’m giving reasons for what I’m think g and you’re just complaining about the subject I’m saying my opinions about.

I’m guessing you want me to care since you’ve stepped in to tell me that the discussion we’re having is stupid.

But I guess it’s possible you’re just saying things for the sake of it. :shrug:

Just don't penalize individual players for it because they didn't get to choose their era.

I wasn’t penalizing anyone, but even if I was, why not?

All “choices” are products of unchosen circumstances. Unless you plan on proving free will, I don’t see why Inshould care what players “choose.” Either you do something or you don’t. People should feel free to “penalize” players however they deem fit.

They have no control over it so penalizing any of them for it is just ridiculous and patently unfair.

Unfair? What? Players aren’t entitled to people having high opinions of them. “Unfair” isn’t a thing when ranking basketball players on the internet.

Just understand you being allowed to talk about it doesn't make you free from potential criticism.

No ****, but it seems you want to be. Let’s be clear, you can criticize people for what you want, but as far as I’m concerned, criticism of value engages with what people say. You don’t do this. You find a way to question the validity of the discussion itself or make sweeping generalizations of people who might disagree with you, often implying people who understand things you don’t must be limited in some other capacity respective to you.

Consequently, I find your ‘criticism’ hollow and worthy of criticsm. Valuable discussion is derived from getting k to the nitty gritty of detail. Calling topics or opinions you’re not comfortable with pointless, that’s a practice of pseudo-intellect.

[Texas Chuck]

There is no nitty gritty to get into lol. A player's age is irrelevant to their play. Yes in general 25 year olds play better than 36 year olds. But when talking about specific players all that matters is how they play. I don't know how else to expound on such a basic concept. This isn't my opinion. This is reality.

Same thing with penalizing a player for their era. I don't care who you like or don't. But if you choose to think less of a player for something 100% out of their control I think that's dumb. Sorry. None of those players got to choose their date of birth last I checked.

The end.

[Bidofo]

It's a thread about where LeBron ranks on the GOAT list...I'm simply saying that the significant lack of leadership he shows here - and has shown time and time again throughout his career (quitting on his team not once but FIVE times, getting multiple coaches fired, having starstar teammates demand to be traded off his team, etc.) has got to be factored in to his ranking on the ATG list IMO. It's a public forum and I have freedom of speech..if you don't like what I say, keep scrolling.

I don’t care how you choose to hold this moment against him, I personally wouldn’t let a mildly whiny statement change my opinion of any all time great player but we can agree to disagree. But what you said is demonstrably false:

Is he serious with this interview? Is he that stupid that he thinks he's the only one dealing with these circumstances? He's the only one who isn't in his own bed, he's the only one not in his regular practice facility, that he's the only one playing with no fans? Is he really that dumb that he doesn't realize that it's the same for every player and every team in the bubble?

When did he say he was the only one dealing with these circumstances? That’s the entire point. If by “anyone with half a brain” you mean anyone who lacks comprehension, then sure, I can see how you get to that. He said the situation is different from normal circumstances, implying that it affects him personally in ways it might not to others...

And your comment about "oh, he has kids so it's perfectly ok for him to say that not seeing his family is an excuse for his team losing" lol give me a break. These are professional athletes. This is what they get paid millions of dollars to do. Not seeing their family for extended periods of time simply comes with the territory for any pro athlete.

You absolutely would compare this 2month bubble to a normal road trip that lasts maybe a week lol. It’s like going to the Olympics without your family basically.

And saying "oh, it's gonna effect Harden less than LeBron being in the bubble, because he goes to clubs and LeBron has a family" lol oh man, this is rich. a) One could argue that being in the bubble would also effect Harden if he can't have his normal partying lifestyle, he's mentally not with it as much because he's stuck in the bubble with nothing to do, he's bored, going crazy without being able to have the same partying lifestyle as he normally does" but then we're going down a path which is a ridiculous argument.

Now you’re misquoting me. I didn’t say it would affect Harden less lol. Your hypothetical is exactly what I’m talking about, it affects them DIFFERENTLY. And we have no idea how it affects them.

Bottom line, LeBron in this interview looks like a cry baby, looks like he is making a lame BS excuse for his team losing to the 8 seed and not taking any blame/responsibility for it.

Again, you can think that (don’t know why LeBron would feel the need to make excuses when he’s been down 3-1 in the Finals before and won, plus he lost the first game in 2018 and it didn’t bother him at all, but sure let’s assume that), it doesn’t change the fact you called him stupid for something he didn’t say, which is why I replied in the first place.

Sorry he's not the super hero you thought he was.

Honestly I feel like I’m pretty objective when it comes to him, even though he’s my favorite player. You talk about Bird more favorably than I do with LeBron.

[Sark]