Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list?

[No-more-rings]

Behind MJ and toss up with Kareem IMO but I haven't analyzed my top 10 with any serious thought in a while. Maybe I will do it during this quarantine.

What gives MJ the tentative edge in your mind?

[70sFan]

I don't think that James is clear GOAT, there is no clear NBA GOAT. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan all have cases over James.

[D.Brasco]

I don't think that James is clear GOAT, there is no clear NBA GOAT. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan all have cases over James.

That's a pretty bold statement these days when discussing basketball but I agree there is nobody in basketball comparable to what I call the "Gretzky standard" for being a clear-cut GOAT of your sport.

I feel the path LeBron is still on however will only strengthen his argument by the time he's retired. He's already had one of the all-time greatest peaks in NBA history and he's making the argument now with some of the greatest longevity by way of continued impact on the game as a player, not just hanging around.

Him finishing with 40k points, 10k assists, 10k rebounds will be close to a Gretzky level statistical dominance, and that combined with his other personal accolades.

I'll add MJ is the Babe Ruth of baseball, his cultural impact will never be matched it just can't. We know Babe Ruth's name 100 years after his playing days for a reason and we will probably the same for MJ. But many will argue there have been better players in baseball since Babe Ruth.

[HeadtopChunes]

I don't think that James is clear GOAT, there is no clear NBA GOAT. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan all have cases over James.

This is where I am at. I am willing to consider all well thought out opinions on this.

Especially between Kareem, James and Jordan where the order i rank the three just keeps shifting for me.

[LKN]

I don't think that James is clear GOAT, there is no clear NBA GOAT. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan all have cases over James.

There can never be a clear GOAT by definition since it's subjective. MJ is probably somewhat close to a "consensus GOAT", but that doesn't mean that people who disagree are wrong (and I say that as an MJ guy).

[PaulieWal]

Behind MJ and toss up with Kareem IMO but I haven't analyzed my top 10 with any serious thought in a while. Maybe I will do it during this quarantine.

What gives MJ the tentative edge in your mind?

Don't have time for a lengthy response but it basically comes down to MJ's playoff scoring being that tiny bit more resilient than LeBron's. Playoff resiliency is a huge thing for me that's where a lot of the guys like Harden and Russ etc. fall short sometimes. LeBron despite his struggles is also a beast in the PS for the most part against even strong defenses, but I feel MJ was say 0.1% (using this number out of my butt) better and that's all it takes for him to be ahead of LeBron if we are talking about #1 vs. #2 or #3.

[bledredwine]

I don't factor in longevity as much as everyone else, especially given how era changes the aggression of play. I care about how good/dominant a player is and their ability to win against tough competition.

Lebron has to prove to me that he can dominate the other greats his size (Dirk, Durant, Kawhi and so on). If he's able to do that, he's in my top 4.

I've got Jordan, Kareem far ahead

then Wilt, Russell

Lebron

Then Bird, Magic losing only to longetivity,
Hakeem
Shaq

and so on. I still would take Hakeem over Lebron if I had to choose, so it's tough to rank.

In terms of how great Lebron is at playing the game of basketball, I don't see him as any more dominant than those last two guys were, ever, really and I don't like the effect he has on teammates on the defensive end in particular, when compared to other greats. I have seen him dominate too many smaller line-ups and younger teams and not enough experienced/talented teams.

[SNPA]

I don't factor in longevity as much as everyone else, especially given how era changes the aggression of play. I care about how good/dominant a player is and their ability to win against tough competition.

Lebron has to prove to me that he can dominate the other greats his size (Dirk, Durant, Kawhi and so on). If he's able to do that, he's in my top 4.

I've got Jordan, Kareem far ahead

then Wilt, Russell

Lebron

Then Bird, Magic losing only to longetivity,
Hakeem
Shaq

and so on. I still would take Hakeem over Lebron if I had to choose, so it's tough to rank.

In terms of how great Lebron is at playing the game of basketball, I don't see him as any more dominant than those last two guys were, ever, really and I don't like the effect he has on teammates on the defensive end in particular, when compared to other greats. I have seen him dominate too many smaller line-ups and younger teams and not enough experienced/talented teams.

If you don’t value longevity, I’m with in not, then why KAJ so high and Bird and Magic get knocked down for it?

[mysticOscar]

I have Lebron in top 3 because of the combination of individual and playoff success. His the MJ of this generation so to speak.

I have him pretty much the same tier as KAJ...not sure how to order these 2.

I just don't feel the same aura with Lebron and KAJ (although only really caught a couple of his prime years) as I did with MJ.

And from a complete package as a player...these 2 for me and what I know of this game...MJ just gives me the best chance of championships.

When trying to argue for Lebron as GOAT...u basically have to devolve into excuses, hypothetical and history revisionism.

Over exaggerating how good MJs supporting cast were without taking into account how MJs game allows these players to maximise there impact and under appreciating Lebrons team mates were.

Basically boiling it down to....Lebron in his 17 years hasn't had the same luck as any of MJs years...which for me is just plain lazy and homerism.

[TheGOATRises007]

2nd and I've had him 2nd since 2013.

[wojoaderge]

3rd behind KAJ and MJ

[No-more-rings]

Behind MJ and toss up with Kareem IMO but I haven't analyzed my top 10 with any serious thought in a while. Maybe I will do it during this quarantine.

What gives MJ the tentative edge in your mind?

Don't have time for a lengthy response but it basically comes down to MJ's playoff scoring being that tiny bit more resilient than LeBron's. Playoff resiliency is a huge thing for me that's where a lot of the guys like Harden and Russ etc. fall short sometimes. LeBron despite his struggles is also a beast in the PS for the most part against even strong defenses, but I feel MJ was say 0.1% (using this number out of my butt) better and that's all it takes for him to be ahead of LeBron if we are talking about #1 vs. #2 or #3.

But what about other areas of the game? I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your overall conclusion, but I think everyone aside from MJ fans would consider Lebron better outside of scoring so if MJ is only slightly better at scoring wouldn’t he have to be equal in other areas?

[SeniorWalker]

I oscillate between 2 and 5. Most days it settles around 3.

He's the greatest individual talent I've ever seen. And had a great work ethic and got a lot out of it. When he became more confident later in his career he seemed unstoppable at times. From a raw talent perspective, 2009 was maybe the most dominant indidvudal season I've ever seen from a face up perimeter player. His playoffs were incredible, if that were his consistent prime and he won titles during that time I might have his peak as #1.

I think I just have a problem with his intangibles. Early in his career I thought he had a pretty unfortunate set of circumstances that made it difficult for him to win....but this applied to so many great players in their career. He decided to take matters into his own hands and control his own destiny and shape his own team's from then on. But the way his teams were designed felt less less than the sum of their parts. At the end of the day, it really, really seemed like he should have won more than he did and I believe a good amount of that it his own fault. Nobody else in history gets a pass, especially when nobody else has had the amount of power he's had over his own career since 2010, so I don't see why LeBron should especially when he can basically form his own teams, supercede GMs, fire coaches, etc. If other players had the same ability to conspire and play with their elite NBA buddies in their prime, a lot of hall of fame careers would look different. I'm not willing to overlook this, it's a huge deal.

I also don't really like his attitude at times. He's flat out quit on numerous occasions at crucial moments. The most recent example is the 2018 finals. No one expected the cavs to win that series but in game 1 theyre tied with the dubs going into overtime. Sure, JR made a mistake..... But the f**king game was tied!! He acted like they already lost! There are SOOO many times in competition where a call doesn't go your way or something seemingly unlucky happens, maybe in your control or not, but if you're the leader of a team you have to play through those moments. You play your hardest until the end and see where the chips fall. What it the warriors had a series of unfortunate series shifting injuries like they did in 2016? What if KD hurts sprains his ankle, or curry or someone goes out for a few games. This literally happened in 2019 and the raptors won the title. But with Lebron's attitude they'd never have a shot because he already quit. He sulked in such a horrible way, distancing himself from his team and flat out gave up when the game was TIED. And then the rest of the series, he pretty much spent the press conferences stroking the greatness of the other team, communicating with his body language that he had no faith in his team. And then game 4, not trying at all and then wrapping his hand in that cast, ready for an excuse to give the media? It wouldn't be as big if a deal, except he's done this many times throughout his career. Just folded when he thought he was going to lose instead of giving it his all. Its consistent behavior with him, he acts like a spoiled child at times and it irritates me beyond belief because I like his personality otherwise.

For these reasons, in my mind he definitely is not #1 now and through his own actions prevented himself from ever surpassing guys like MJ, despite the fact that he's the right kind of talent to be the undisputed greatest.

I suspect that most people will not ever consider him the greatest either. MJ probably won't be surpassed culturally but a player may surpass his impact on the court. It could have been LeBron but I believe it will probably be someone else.

[Matt15]

Third after Jordan and Kareem. If he leads the Lakers to a title he passes Kareem.

[LKN]

MJ has a pretty damn strong statistical argument. He's the career leader in:

OBPM
Playoff OBPM (huge gap to #2)
BPM
Playoff BPM (big gap to #2)
PER
Playoff PER
WS/48
Playoff WS/48


Some of the regular season gaps are pretty big also if you leave out his Wizards years.

To Lebron's credit - he's #2 in all the OBPM, BPM stats with a big gap to #3.... so he's pretty clearly #2 all time (at least of the guys we have stats for - to be fair to KAJ we don't have these metrics for his whole career)

[MisterHibachi]

In the top tier.

[Hal14]

MJ has a pretty damn strong statistical argument. He's the career leader in:

OBPM
Playoff OBPM (huge gap to #2)
BPM
Playoff BPM (big gap to #2)
PER
Playoff PER
WS/48
Playoff WS/48


Some of the regular season gaps are pretty big also if you leave out his Wizards years.

To Lebron's credit - he's #2 in all the OBPM, BPM stats with a big gap to #3.... so he's pretty clearly #2 all time.

If all we're gonna look at is advanced stats, we could just program an algorithm to give us a ranking of every player who's ever played...and use machine learning so the rankings update automatically every time a game is played.

What fun would that be, though? If that was the case, we wouldn't need any message boards.

We'd just get an email update each day alerting us of any updates to the NBA Artificial Intelligence All-Time Rankings.

I think it's better that we also use the human element..so we look at stats and analytics, but not have that be the end all be all. After all, advanced stats heavily favor players in the modern era *cough, LeBron, cough*

I've got LeBron 7th, I realize that's probably lower than everyone else on this site but I have my reasons. Ahead of him in my top 6 (in no particular order because this thread is only about LeBron and what spot we have him ranked so the order I have these 6 guys is not relevant in this context)

Jordan, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt

[bondom34]

In the top tier.

This.

Honestly I generally feel like 1-3 is that tier.

Edit and re edit: Maybe 4

Edited again haha: Removed a sentence, suppose he could be lower with reason and not bias, but I don't see him lower than there reasonably at this point. I'm not sure if someone could offer a good argument but I certainly don't see it, and tend to lean with him 1-3.

[rrravenred]

Genuinely loving how diverse the rankings are.

My Top 4 of MJ, KAJ, Russell and LeBron oscillate as GOAT (with Timmy sneaking in when I'm feeling cheeky).

None of those four feel out of place on the throne for me. Additional quality years from Lebron may stiffen his argument, but barring a transcendent season unheard of for a veteran of his minutes, can't see something that will definitely put him over the top as clear cut GOAT.

But his argument is still pretty strong on any given day.

Sent from my SM-A530F using RealGM mobile app

[bledredwine]

I don't factor in longevity as much as everyone else, especially given how era changes the aggression of play. I care about how good/dominant a player is and their ability to win against tough competition.

Lebron has to prove to me that he can dominate the other greats his size (Dirk, Durant, Kawhi and so on). If he's able to do that, he's in my top 4.

I've got Jordan, Kareem far ahead

then Wilt, Russell

Lebron

Then Bird, Magic losing only to longetivity,
Hakeem
Shaq

and so on. I still would take Hakeem over Lebron if I had to choose, so it's tough to rank.

In terms of how great Lebron is at playing the game of basketball, I don't see him as any more dominant than those last two guys were, ever, really and I don't like the effect he has on teammates on the defensive end in particular, when compared to other greats. I have seen him dominate too many smaller line-ups and younger teams and not enough experienced/talented teams.

If you don’t value longevity, I’m with in not, then why KAJ so high and Bird and Magic get knocked down for it?

Bird is the only one who had way too shortened of a career when it comes to his prime and injury...and in his case, longetivity does matter because he didn't even have an average length career, IMO. If I'm to be completely honest with you, Bird is my number 2 greatest player of all time... in terms of raw skill and ability. When I say longevity, I mean that it doesn't matter if someone's around for an unusually long time. But take the polar opposite in Derrick Rose - obviously that's way too short, as is T-Mac. Bird's prime is just enough shortened that it effects his overall ranking to me.

But I'm strongly considering putting Bird in my top 3 or 4, after having watched a lot of him lately. He was unbelievable and IMO definitely better than Magic.

As for Kareem? Well, he was an absolute beast and surprised even Wilt with his dominance. He's one of the greatest players of all time, on both ends of the court. He has an incredible resume as well.