Where do you rank Lebron right now in the GOAT list?

[picko]

1b to Jordan's 1a.

[SNPA]

I don't factor in longevity as much as everyone else, especially given how era changes the aggression of play. I care about how good/dominant a player is and their ability to win against tough competition.

Lebron has to prove to me that he can dominate the other greats his size (Dirk, Durant, Kawhi and so on). If he's able to do that, he's in my top 4.

I've got Jordan, Kareem far ahead

then Wilt, Russell

Lebron

Then Bird, Magic losing only to longetivity,
Hakeem
Shaq

and so on. I still would take Hakeem over Lebron if I had to choose, so it's tough to rank.

In terms of how great Lebron is at playing the game of basketball, I don't see him as any more dominant than those last two guys were, ever, really and I don't like the effect he has on teammates on the defensive end in particular, when compared to other greats. I have seen him dominate too many smaller line-ups and younger teams and not enough experienced/talented teams.

If you don’t value longevity, I’m with in not, then why KAJ so high and Bird and Magic get knocked down for it?

Bird is the only one who had way too shortened of a career when it comes to his prime and injury...and in his case, longetivity does matter because he didn't even have an average length career, IMO. If I'm to be completely honest with you, Bird is my number 2 greatest player of all time... in terms of raw skill and ability. When I say longevity, I mean that it doesn't matter if someone's around for an unusually long time. But take the polar opposite in Derrick Rose - obviously that's way too short, as is T-Mac. Bird's prime is just enough shortened that it effects his overall ranking to me.

But I'm strongly considering putting Bird in my top 3 or 4, after having watched a lot of him lately. He was unbelievable and IMO definitely better than Magic.

As for Kareem? Well, he was an absolute beast and surprised even Wilt with his dominance. He's one of the greatest players of all time, on both ends of the court. He has an incredible resume as well.

To me Bird played long enough to not have longevity hurt him like Rose, etc., a decade is enough.

I have LeBron in tier two which is 4-8. He has a high BBIQ and top notch athleticism but isn’t as natural a player as some others. He has learned to be great, that holds him back some IMO.

[70sFan]

I don't factor in longevity as much as everyone else, especially given how era changes the aggression of play. I care about how good/dominant a player is and their ability to win against tough competition.

Lebron has to prove to me that he can dominate the other greats his size (Dirk, Durant, Kawhi and so on). If he's able to do that, he's in my top 4.

I've got Jordan, Kareem far ahead

then Wilt, Russell

Lebron

Then Bird, Magic losing only to longetivity,
Hakeem
Shaq

and so on. I still would take Hakeem over Lebron if I had to choose, so it's tough to rank.

In terms of how great Lebron is at playing the game of basketball, I don't see him as any more dominant than those last two guys were, ever, really and I don't like the effect he has on teammates on the defensive end in particular, when compared to other greats. I have seen him dominate too many smaller line-ups and younger teams and not enough experienced/talented teams.

If you don’t value longevity, I’m with in not, then why KAJ so high and Bird and Magic get knocked down for it?

Kareem should be ranked very high even without taking longevity into account. He had 12 years of extremely dominant prime, who else can day that? There have been very few players with comparable primes to Kareem.

[Gooner]

It's hard to rank players from different eras, with different positions, roles etc. I would say LeBron is like top 15.

It's really hard to rank. But it seems like doing a fair rank is even harder when you got such bias against a player.

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

[Dutchball97]

It's hard to rank players from different eras, with different positions, roles etc. I would say LeBron is like top 15.

It's really hard to rank. But it seems like doing a fair rank is even harder when you got such bias against a player.

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

[Gooner]

It's really hard to rank. But it seems like doing a fair rank is even harder when you got such bias against a player.

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

[Dutchball97]

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

Anything besides blind hate you're basing this on? I can't think of any criteria that would push LeBron outside the top 10.

[70sFan]

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

For some Kareem is GOAT.

[Gooner]

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

For some Kareem is GOAT.

He is for some, but they are in the minority. I'm just saying if longevity counts so much, then there is no debate. Kareem has the lognevity, with 6 titles and 6 MVP's.

[70sFan]

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

For some Kareem is GOAT.

He is for some, but they are in the minority. I'm just saying if longevity counts so much, then there is no debate. Kareem has the lognevity, with 6 titles and 6 MVP's.

There is no undisputed GOAT though.

[Gooner]

For some Kareem is GOAT.

He is for some, but they are in the minority. I'm just saying if longevity counts so much, then there is no debate. Kareem has the lognevity, with 6 titles and 6 MVP's.

There is no undisputed GOAT though.

Maybe, but Jordan is as close to that as it gets. He never got that "title" because of longevity, or cumulative stats. He was simply the best.

[70sFan]

He is for some, but they are in the minority. I'm just saying if longevity counts so much, then there is no debate. Kareem has the lognevity, with 6 titles and 6 MVP's.

There is no undisputed GOAT though.

Maybe, but Jordan is as close to that as it gets. He never got that "title" because of longevity, or cumulative stats. He was simply the best.

If you don't value longevity at all, then Russell is as close as it gets. He was the most impactful player ever and his impact translated into the most rings in the history of this league. On top of that, Russell was proven on different level of competition (college, HS, international).

[rrravenred]

If you don't value longevity at all, then Russell is as close as it gets. He was the most impactful player ever and his impact translated into the most rings in the history of this league. On top of that, Russell was proven on different level of competition (college, HS, international).

Championships with different teammates, check.

Championships with different coaches, check.

Championships against all-time greats AT POSITION, check.

Championships whilst being at all times the dominant player on the team with eye-popping stats, check.

[Joao Saraiva]

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

There is a problem with that. LBJ is among the best in peak and prime too.

I value peak more myself, then prime (5 best years, even if not consecutive) and then the rest is longevity.

The problem is if you do some sort of calculation, LBJ is near the top or the top guy in all the categories.

That is why there comes a point where having 10 guys above him is pure bias.

I don't follow the formula blindly, but when the gap is absolutely significant (like the gaps he build to others) I'd say with 95% certainty that my formula provides the real result.

Also, there is no problem with having KAJ as your GOAT. As long as you follow that criteria for everone else. And if he's the GOAT, then LeBron is up there for sure.

[bledredwine]

Bird is the only one who had way too shortened of a career when it comes to his prime and injury...and in his case, longetivity does matter because he didn't even have an average length career, IMO. If I'm to be completely honest with you, Bird is my number 2 greatest player of all time... in terms of raw skill and ability. When I say longevity, I mean that it doesn't matter if someone's around for an unusually long time. But take the polar opposite in Derrick Rose - obviously that's way too short, as is T-Mac. Bird's prime is just enough shortened that it effects his overall ranking to me.

But I'm strongly considering putting Bird in my top 3 or 4, after having watched a lot of him lately. He was unbelievable and IMO definitely better than Magic.

As for Kareem? Well, he was an absolute beast and surprised even Wilt with his dominance. He's one of the greatest players of all time, on both ends of the court. He has an incredible resume as well.

To me Bird played long enough to not have longevity hurt him like Rose, etc., a decade is enough.

I have LeBron in tier two which is 4-8. He has a high BBIQ and top notch athleticism but isn’t as natural a player as some others. He has learned to be great, that holds him back some IMO.

Man, I feel similarly. There’s so much potential to be great, but I wish that he was more of a competitive mindset in terms of winning instead of trying to put up great seasons and stats for individual placement on all-time lists, teaming up, giving up when tough and so on. That was a huge turnoff after being a huge fan for seven years.

I also wish that he had done more work on the footwork and intricacies of the game. Having trouble shooting? That I can understand as if it’s very hard to learn. Lebron probably should have reached out to some of the other greats to learn from them (Hakeem, Jordan, whomever). That seems to go a long way for talented players like Lebron (like Kobe and even Melo).

[Pelly24]

I think he and MJ are tied for #1.

Most stats put their peaks at about the same. MJ was a better scorer, LeBron is bigger and a better passer.

People will use the chips or their finals records as evidence MJ is better, but that argument ignores MJ's losing before he made the finals.

I don't want to get into the longevity argument because MJ was the undisputed best player for a long enough time to prove it wasn't just a run.

What's interesting to me is that they're both really similar in a way, just with different incarnations of attributes and different extents. The ability to initiate an offense, the ability to create your own shot at will, the ability to be an all-time great volume scorer, the ability to defend, strong fundamentals, genius IQ and perfect athleticism. MJ and LeBron are the only two guys with that I think, and then maybe Kareem but he couldn't initiate/run an offense the same way. If you're a big you generally need to be set up more and you can't facilitate an offense, so you gotta be a dominant defender and a great scorer to make up for it.

[Pelly24]

Bird is the only one who had way too shortened of a career when it comes to his prime and injury...and in his case, longetivity does matter because he didn't even have an average length career, IMO. If I'm to be completely honest with you, Bird is my number 2 greatest player of all time... in terms of raw skill and ability. When I say longevity, I mean that it doesn't matter if someone's around for an unusually long time. But take the polar opposite in Derrick Rose - obviously that's way too short, as is T-Mac. Bird's prime is just enough shortened that it effects his overall ranking to me.

But I'm strongly considering putting Bird in my top 3 or 4, after having watched a lot of him lately. He was unbelievable and IMO definitely better than Magic.

As for Kareem? Well, he was an absolute beast and surprised even Wilt with his dominance. He's one of the greatest players of all time, on both ends of the court. He has an incredible resume as well.

To me Bird played long enough to not have longevity hurt him like Rose, etc., a decade is enough.

I have LeBron in tier two which is 4-8. He has a high BBIQ and top notch athleticism but isn’t as natural a player as some others. He has learned to be great, that holds him back some IMO.

Man, I feel similarly. There’s so much potential to be great, but I wish that he was more of a competitive mindset in terms of winning instead of trying to put up great seasons and stats for individual placement on all-time lists, teaming up, giving up when tough and so on. That was a huge turnoff after being a huge fan for seven years.

I also wish that he had done more work on the footwork and intricacies of the game. Having trouble shooting? That I can understand as if it’s very hard to learn. Lebron probably should have reached out to some of the other greats to learn from them (Hakeem, Jordan, whomever). That seems to go a long way for talented players like Lebron (like Kobe and even Melo).

I think the bolded is really too subjective. People forget about that game in 1988 when MJ only took 8 shots one day after the coach told him he shot the ball too much. That is probably the most obvious sign of giving up that I've ever seen and I don't think LeBron's ever done something quite that dramatic. He might have mentally frozen up, but that's it. And then the idea that he's stat-padding—I don't know how you could have been a fan of LeBron for any length of time and come up with that. The 2009 cavs won 66 games with not one single player being as good as Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and arguably Toni Kukoc (who had a .182 ws/48 for the 1998 playoff run). Sure he put up ridiculous stats and was ball dominant, but that can't be held against him if it clearly resulted in incredible success. Also, before last year's injury season, when's the last time LeBron didn't win 50 games? Before last year, when was the last time he didn't get to the finals? I just don't see any argument for him not being competitive and not being one of the most successful players ever and poss. the most impactful player ever in a vacuum (ability to make any team great).


LeBron famously reached out to Hakeem after the 2011 finals and he's used his post game in moments he's needed to most ever since. That's become one of his secret weapons he keeps tucked away. Sometimes there's a limit to what one person can get as far as skills go. LeBron is probably the 1st or second greatest ballhandler ever for someone over 6'8," and his very low turnover rate speaks to that. Consider that Westbrook and James Harden are both about 5 or 6 inches shorter than LeBron and have the ball much lower to the ground and yet they turn the ball over far more. That speaks to how careful LeBron is with the ball and probably a drastic difference in IQ. Not only is LeBron a great ballhandler, but he is also an ambidexterous finisher and shoots about 35% from three for his career on a decently high volume. All of that goes without mentioning that he's almost inarguably a top 3 passer ever and he's a decent midrange shooter. LeBron is very skilled and I'd say that you could argue that no one's ever understood the intricacies of the game like LeBron. See that press conference where he broke down the play-by-play of the last two minutes of game action for evidence. Listen to coaches explain how LeBron knows their offensive plays and formations instantly and ruins their game plan at times.

This just doesn't make sense to me. Anything that suggests LeBron isn't competitive or isn't that skilled is just hollow sports narrative talk, no offense.

[Pelly24]

Behind MJ and toss up with Kareem IMO but I haven't analyzed my top 10 with any serious thought in a while. Maybe I will do it during this quarantine.

What gives MJ the tentative edge in your mind?

Don't have time for a lengthy response but it basically comes down to MJ's playoff scoring being that tiny bit more resilient than LeBron's. Playoff resiliency is a huge thing for me that's where a lot of the guys like Harden and Russ etc. fall short sometimes. LeBron despite his struggles is also a beast in the PS for the most part against even strong defenses, but I feel MJ was say 0.1% (using this number out of my butt) better and that's all it takes for him to be ahead of LeBron if we are talking about #1 vs. #2 or #3.

I kind of agree with this, but I'd say it's somewhat balanced out, or maybe tips it in LeBron's favor that he's possibly the GOAT floor-raiser. I think LeBron's size helps him with that.

MJ being such a dealy midrange shooter and having the quickest first step made him a deadlier scorer, but LeBron to me is decisively the second best scorer and is just a quarter-notch or so below MJ in that regard, especially over the last four years (oddly).

[bledredwine]

People get mad, but it's not an insult at all to put someone in top 15 players of all time. There have been many great players in the history of this game.

It's not an insult but anyone can see it's weak. You can't even make the longevity argument to keep him down like people still do with Curry for example since LeBron has already been playing for longer than some All-Time greats.

Thing is, there are not 14 other players who have been as good as LeBron for as long as him.

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

You’re not allowed to have a post that doesn’t constantly praise lebron around here.

[bledredwine]

I don't know if there is 14, I don't have a list, but I would put 10 guys ahead of him, and then LeBron somewhere between 11-15. Longevity is not that important to me. It's a nice feat, but it doesn't show who is the better player, and it was never really the criteria until LeBron started to age. If longevity was that important, then KAJ is the undisputed goat.

For some Kareem is GOAT.

He is for some, but they are in the minority. I'm just saying if longevity counts so much, then there is no debate. Kareem has the lognevity, with 6 titles and 6 MVP's.

I recently watched a video comparing player opinions (legends actually) and it was

jordan - 14 votes
Kareem - 4 votes
Wilt and Lebron - 2 votes each

Then oscar with 1 and then Wilt picked a weird one- a harlem globetrotter who’s name I’ve forgotten.

But those that favored Jordan spanned many eras, which was interesting- West, even Bill Russell, through Magic Bird contemporaries like Barkley, Hakeem, shaq. Not enough new players were included but they’re swayed heavily to jordan- nash, Dirk, kg, Pierce, t Mac, durant etc all having said so.

But Kareem is the clear cut number two and would be the one to have an argument. I personally believe that Wilt was likely the best competition for that one spot (dominance) and Bird is the 2nd greatest player I’ve seen, period, but we’ll never really know who deserves that two spot. For that two spot, Kareem has the best combination of resume and dominance. I mean, technically we don’t know who deserves the one spot, though it’s pretty clear one guy checks all categories.... and passes the eye test better than anyone we’ve seen as well, influenced/pioneered the game way more, and so on.

I still contend that the most dominant players influenced or even changed the rules of the game- that’s Jordan, Wilt and Kareem.