RealGM

NBA playing careers only; we are not including college, Olympic, foreign, etc. You can select up to 10 players (you do not HAVE to fill out your list). They do not have to be in order. The 10 players with the most votes make the HOF. For the first year of the HOF, a player could not have played after the 1959-60 season. Voting will stay open as long as there is active interest. If the thread drops off page 1, I will either bump it or call the vote. We take the top 10 votegetters, in case of a tie, I will go back and ask everyone to vote on just the tied players, ranking them in order with just 1st place votes counting, then 2nd if 1st ties again, etc.

We will start with the BAA back to the '46-'47 season as the official NBA pre-cursor, NBL merged with them in '49 but was the superior league (level of play) in the seasons prior. So also using the NBL from the same season. Very basic NBL stats can be found here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/seasons/. ABA players are also eligible.

Pettit (All)
Arizin (all)
Schayes (all)
Sharman (all)

8 Heinsohn (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, eminence, kipper34)
7 Foust (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, penbeast0, kipper34)
6 Lovellette (70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, penbeast0, kipper34)
5 Braun (70sFan, trex_8063, penbeast0, Doctor MJ, eminence)
5 Risen (Dr Positivity; Doctor MJ, 70sFan, trex_8063, eminence)
5 Ramsey (Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, eminence, kipper34)

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

Retired in 1960 or before

For me, this one starts with Bob Pettit pretty easily. Like Mikan, he's a clear #1. Hagan is not eligible because he made a short comeback in the ABA. Cousy also made a short lived comeback and will have to go into the next group. Sharman is a given. Maybe Frank Ramsey? Arizin is a given, Gola played into 66. Dolph Schayes goes in despite his shooting percentages. Carl Braun? Larry Foust? Jack Twyman played into 66. Second chance for Maurice Stokes? Looking for guys to put ahead of Fulks or Stokes.

1. Pettit
2. Sharman
3. Arizin
4. Schayes
5. Lovellette
--------------------
6. Stokes
7. Foust
8. Fulks
9. Carl Braun
10. Kenny Sears

Also considering Tommy Heinsohn, Frank Ramsey, Arnie Risen

That is my first cut, who am I missing here, list.

Here are the guys I have as my almost-certainly-locks:

Bill Sharman
Dolph Schayes
Paul Arizin
Bob Pettit
Tommy Heinsohn

While I don't want to put the Top 5 guys in one tier per se, I think clearly Heinsohn is way below the rest, and yet I'll be very surprised if I don't end up voting for him.

I'll refrain from bringing up other guys at this time. Looking forward to see who others add to the conversation.

EDIT: Oh that's right, Cousy made one of those stupid comebacks. Removing him from the list.

Can I put in a special request for us to be able to vote for Cousy here? The 34 minutes in '70 just feel ridiculous.

Looking at Pens list I'd say I feel quite a bit more positive about Dolph Schayes, dude was the 2nd best player of the early league quite clearly to me (Mikan #1 of course).

I've honestly never spent much time examining Sharman's career, that's one I'm interested in hearing about for sure. Heinsohn too really.

Lovellette would seem to be the guy not on Pen's initial list that deserves some level of consideration. Can't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

Yeah, Ack-Ack was eligible. No defense gunner who didn't rebound well and wasn't efficient. Played 9 years, scored a bunch, never played 35 mpg. I have him below Stokes, Foust, Fulks (pretty much the same type of resume as Heinsohn but Fulks was more important). Not sure I even put him over Ramsey though by all measures except playoff heroics, Heinsohn was more important player. Ramsey was one of those guys who seemed to pick it up in the postseason. He's definitely someone to think of but he sure as heck isn't a lock for me.

I did forget Lovelette, he's a lock for me, the #5 guy. If for no other reason than that he was one of my dad's frat brothers at Kansas. Center size but could take guys outside, real rep for playing dirty in a league where there was a lot more of that stuff, think Zelmo Beatty with more scoring.

Also just remembered Kenny Sears, surprising efficiency for a jump shooting combo forward. Another guy I have ahead of Heinsohn.

penbeast0 wrote:For me, this one starts with Bob Pettit pretty easily. Like Mikan, he's a clear #1. Hagan is not eligible because he made a short comeback in the ABA. Cousy also made a short lived comeback and will have to go into the next group. Sharman is a given. Maybe Frank Ramsey? Arizin is a given, Gola played into 66. Dolph Schayes goes in despite his shooting percentages. Carl Braun? Larry Foust? Jack Twyman played into 66. Second chance for Maurice Stokes? Looking for guys to put ahead of Fulks or Stokes.

1. Pettit
2. Sharman
3. Arizin
4. Schayes
--------------------
5. Stokes
6. Foust
7. Fulks
8. Braun
9. Ramsey
10. Risen

That is my first cut, who am I missing here, list.

Clyde Lovellette, Tom Heinsohn. Also, I’m assuming Cousy is not yet eligible due to the 7 games (or whatever it was) he played in ‘70, right?

Btw, just to be clear (for future rounds, because OP says NBA careers only), we’re allowed to consider ABA aren’t we?

Made this Spreadsheet. Might be a good thing to include with each new thread:

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

If there's more info wanted on it, lemme know.

trex_8063 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:For me, this one starts with Bob Pettit pretty easily. Like Mikan, he's a clear #1. Hagan is not eligible because he made a short comeback in the ABA. Cousy also made a short lived comeback and will have to go into the next group. Sharman is a given. Maybe Frank Ramsey? Arizin is a given, Gola played into 66. Dolph Schayes goes in despite his shooting percentages. Carl Braun? Larry Foust? Jack Twyman played into 66. Second chance for Maurice Stokes? Looking for guys to put ahead of Fulks or Stokes.

1. Pettit
2. Sharman
3. Arizin
4. Schayes
--------------------
5. Stokes
6. Foust
7. Fulks
8. Braun
9. Ramsey
10. Risen

That is my first cut, who am I missing here, list.

Clyde Lovellette, Tom Heinsohn. Also, I’m assuming Cousy is not yet eligible due to the 7 games (or whatever it was) he played in ‘70, right?

Btw, just to be clear (for future rounds, because OP says NBA careers only), we’re allowed to consider ABA aren’t we?

Yes.

Last thread post 5

penbeast0 wrote:NBA (BAA/NBL/ABA) only, Globetrotters, playground legends, Bob Kurland types not eligible except for their NBA careers.

Doctor MJ wrote:Made this Spreadsheet. Might be a good thing to include with each new thread:

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

If there's more info wanted on it, lemme know.

I'm not sure if you made it public, or at least I don't have access

penbeast0 wrote:Yeah, Ack-Ack was eligible. No defense gunner who didn't rebound well and wasn't efficient. Played 9 years, scored a bunch, never played 35 mpg. I have him below Stokes, Foust, Fulks (pretty much the same type of resume as Heinsohn but Fulks was more important). Not sure I even put him over Ramsey though by all measures except playoff heroics, Heinsohn was more important player. Ramsey was one of those guys who seemed to pick it up in the postseason. He's definitely someone to think of but he sure as heck isn't a lock for me.

I did forget Lovelette, he's a lock for me, the #5 guy. If for no other reason than that he was one of my dad's frat brothers at Kansas. Center size but could take guys outside, real rep for playing dirty in a league where there was a lot more of that stuff, think Zelmo Beatty with more scoring.

Also just remembered Kenny Sears, surprising efficiency for a jump shooting combo forward. Another guy I have ahead of Heinsohn.

lol, well we'll see how things go with Tommy Gun. I share your skepticism of him, but just didn't think there were 10 guys likely to be put ahead of him.

But what I really want to hear about is your dad & Lovellette in the frat. Pray tell.

eminence wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Made this Spreadsheet. Might be a good thing to include with each new thread:

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

If there's more info wanted on it, lemme know.

I'm not sure if you made it public, or at least I don't have access

Try now.

Doctor MJ wrote:
lol, well we'll see how things go with Tommy Gun. I share your skepticism of him, but just didn't think there were 10 guys likely to be put ahead of him.

But what I really want to hear about is your dad & Lovellette in the frat. Pray tell.

That's all I know. My dad was a tennis jock rather than a basketball jock and told me once that they were frat brothers in Sigma Chi at UK but never elaborated. He did used to sing the frat songs in the car when we were little.

penbeast0 wrote:.

If I could make a request [that's going to be VERY handy a few more rounds along]: can you list in the OP [in spoiler, perhaps] the players who have already been inducted?

I see the link to the last thread, but that just bucks us to page 1 of the thread (the inductees not listed there). One has to navigate to the final page, sift thru posts to where the most recent vote-count is stated, and even there it's displaying a tie for 10th; sift a little further to see implied winner of runoff [an official statement absent].......and if people continue posting in that thread for discussion's sake to where that's not even the last page anymore, well---you see what I'm saying.

And it will only get more difficult without a plainly stated list as we go on (when there are 30, 40, 50, etc, players inducted).

trex_8063 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:.

If I could make a request [that's going to be VERY handy a few more rounds along]: can you list in the OP [in spoiler, perhaps] the players who have already been inducted?

I see the link to the last thread, but that just bucks us to page 1 of the thread (the inductees not listed there). One has to navigate to the final page, sift thru posts to where the most recent vote-count is stated, and even there it's displaying a tie for 10th; sift a little further to see implied winner of runoff [an official statement absent].......and if people continue posting in that thread for discussion's sake to where that's not even the last page anymore, well---you see what I'm saying.

And it will only get more difficult without a plainly stated list as we go on (when there are 30, 40, 50, etc, players inducted).

Doc's got us covered. Could you perhaps link his spreadsheet in the OP's from here on?

Doctor MJ wrote:

eminence wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Made this Spreadsheet. Might be a good thing to include with each new thread:

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

If there's more info wanted on it, lemme know.

I'm not sure if you made it public, or at least I don't have access

Try now.

I'm in.

Fair enough, I will put the final inductee list for each thread in the linked post.

penbeast0 wrote:Yeah, Ack-Ack was eligible. No defense gunner

Are we sure Heinsohn was no D? Have heard that on internet, maybe here, not sure about contemporary rep or published book stuff (think I've heard some high motor stuff, which isn't necessarily defense oriented, but often correlates).

Not that not being no D would necessarily get Heinsohn in.

Doctor MJ wrote:

eminence wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Made this Spreadsheet. Might be a good thing to include with each new thread:

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

If there's more info wanted on it, lemme know.

I'm not sure if you made it public, or at least I don't have access

Try now.

Could we edit Vern please.

Mikkelsen

I think Heinsohn talks about having a no defense rep in "Tall Tales" (in the Pettit section?) and I know that in his later career, they were platooning him with Sanders who was a defensive specialist with no offense, so I have always had the picture of Heinsohn not being focused on that end. Not sure about high motor, what I have heard was motor mouth . . . hyper and never shut up and maybe that translates to high motor on the floor.

OK, what follows is just my initial brain-storming list; I'll post a clearly official vote later.

Among the new candidates......

The "so obvious there is literally no case whatsoever to not include them" choices:
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Paul Arizin
probably Bill Sharman, too

The "pretty obvious, don't think I need to elaborate upon them" choices:
Clyde Lovellette
probably Tom Heinsohn


I know Jack George retired in 1961, but I don't think he's really a serious candidate.
Frank Ramsey needs some consideration, though he's far from a lock imo. Will toss him in with the pool of prior candidates who didn't get in the last round. Oh!, and Carl Braun, too. Not a lock, but needs serious consideration, imo.
Is there any other new candidate I'm missing?

If not, then my top candidates for those final 4 spots are:

Frank Ramsey
Carl Braun
Arnie Risen
Dick McGuire
Joe Fulks
Max Zaslofsky
Andy Phillip
Maurice Stokes

Hmm.......among those^^^ I'm leaning toward Risen, Braun, probably Fulks, and.......??
Zaslofsky or Stokes feel like the most "relevant" from a historical narrative sense, though some of the other candidates arguably had more significant careers in a strictly basketball-related sense. Side-note: I feel like Andy Phillip is a player history sort of sleeps on; looks like an awfully good player for the time-period, though. 11-year career, PER over those final 7 seasons was 13.5 (which is higher than all but ONE season Slater Martin had, for example), led the league in apg three times (twice during seasons Bob Cousy was around for); looked to be on his way to a fourth consecutive season before being traded to Fort Wayne, too. Perhaps worth noting the Warriors offense in '52 (with Phillip, Arizin, and later career Joe Fulks) was a +2.6 rORTG, and then with losing Arizin and Phillip [well, Phillip played 13 games before being traded] they fell off a cliff to -4.1 rORTG, despite Neil Johnston coming into his prime that year.