REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1970 or earlier)

[penbeast0]

BAA/NBA/ABA playing careers only; we are not including college, Olympic, foreign, etc. You can select up to 10 players (you do not HAVE to fill out your list). They do not have to be in order. The 10 players with the most votes make the HOF. Voting will stay open as long as there is active interest. We take the top 10 votegetters, in case of a tie, I will go back and ask everyone to vote on just the tied players, ranking them in order with just 1st place votes counting, then 2nd if 1st ties again, etc.

Bill Russell (Dutchball97, Narigo, 70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, eminence, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, worldjbfree)
Bob Cousy (Dutchball97, Narigo, 70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, eminence, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, worldjbfree)
Cliff Hagan (Dutchball97, Narigo, 70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, eminence, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, worldjbfree)
Sam Jones (Dutchball97, Narigo, 70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, eminence, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, worldjbfree)

Jack Twyman (Dutchball97, Narigo, 70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ)
Richie Guerin (Dutchball97, 70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ)

Rudy LaRusso (70sFan, penbeast0, Kipper34, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, Doctor MJ)
Larry Costello (70sFan, Kipper34, Dr. Positivity, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ)

Tom Gola (penbeast0, trex_8063, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ)
Red Kerr (Kipper34, trex_8063, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ)

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

Retired 1960 or before

Retired 1965 or before

[penbeast0]

Some new guys to consider -- All-Stars who retired between 1956 and 1970:

Bob Cousy
Red Kerr
Larry Costello
Richie Guerin
Willie Naulls
Bill Russell
Woody Saulsberry
Tom Gola
Sam Jones
Don Ohl
Guy Rodgers
Wayne Embry

Add Cliff Hagan, Jack Twyman, Rudy LaRusso

Bill Russell is in a class by himself, Sam Jones was probably the 2nd most valuable Celtic during the dynasty years (Havlicek came in later and his greater defense and playmaking were counterbalanced by his lesser shooting efficiency; Havlicek is a rare player who improved into his 30s).

I like Gola a lot, he wasn't a scorer but he was a Magic/Oscar sized guard who had PG playmaking and PF rebounding as well as strong defense. I don't like Cousy or Rodgers but they both probably go in for their numbers. That's still only 5.

Other than that, I'm looking at guys like Costello or Guerin who I know of but don't really know well and might consider KC Jones despite his almost complete lack of any offensive skill for his defense. Embry and Kerr have decent defensive reps as well.

This won't get easy until expansion gives us 10-20 guys who score 20 ppg against the thinned out talent and weaker defenses; that's coming up.

[Dutchball97]

Apparently not entirely official List

Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Richie Guerin
Cliff Hagan
Jack Twyman
Sam Jones

I kept my options open for a bit but I'm not really convinced anyone else from this batch should be in the HoF and in the end I added 4 more guys anyway.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, an initial list of guys newly eligible:

Bob Cousy
Richie Guerin
Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Rudy LaRusso
Larry Costello
KC Jones
Cliff Hagen
Jack Twyman
Red Kerr
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Don Ohl
Willie Naulls

The guys who seem like locks at first blush:
Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Sam Jones
Cliff Hagen

[Dutchball97]

Zelmo Beaty played till 1975 so he won't be up till the next batch otherwise he's definitely a guy I'd consider.

[Doctor MJ]

Zelmo Beaty played till 1975 so he won't be up till the next batch otherwise he's definitely a guy I'd consider.

Ah thanks. He's struck from the list.

(I think of him as primarily an ABA guy so I should have thought harder instead of just typing everyone in the bkref query.)

[Narigo]

Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Jack Twyman
Cliff Hagan
Bob Cousy

[Owly]

Okay, an initial list of guys newly eligible:

Bob Cousy
Richie Guerin
Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Rudy LaRusso
Larry Costello
KC Jones
Cliff Hagan
Jack Twyman
Red Kerr
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Don Ohl
Willie Naulls

The guys who seem like locks at first blush:
Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Sam Jones
Cliff Hagan

Hagan with an a.

And agree on the locks.


Would pitch Cervi slightly again as pioneer worth an additional look. Impressive WS total in 50 for a guard. V. impressive WS/48 later in limited minutes. All NBL first team thrice in our first three years (plus 2nd team just outside our time frame on the '46 champs). All NBA 2nd team in '50 after merger. Important part of very good Royals team. Possible 47 scoring champ (total points leader Davies pips him at 2 decimal places but plays only 32 to the full 44 for Cervi, Mikan would lead but plays just 25 due to contract holdout).

[penbeast0]

Tentative list

Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Richie Guerin
Cliff Hagan
Jack Twyman
Sam Jones

Thanks, missed Hagan and Twyman somehow and Doc, thanks for adding Rudy LaRusso who I always liked. Any idea why LaRusso retired after his best two seasons?

[Dr Positivity]

Russell - duh
Cousy - duh
Sam Jones - duh
Hagan - duh when you consider big playoff performances on great core. I think I might push for him next top 100.
Twyman - Pretty killer peak

After that I’m struggling. I guess Costello and I’ll probably vote for Fulks again. If either Gola and Rodgers are HOF level shouldn’t them, Arizin and Wilt have been more dominant core? Or it just looks bad on Wilt...

[kipper34]

Tentative list

Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Richie Guerin
Cliff Hagan
Jack Twyman
Sam Jones

Thanks, missed Hagan and Twyman somehow and Doc, thanks for adding Rudy LaRusso who I always liked. Any idea why LaRusso retired after his best two seasons?

I found this in an article about his college career

He joined the San Francisco Warriors, but maintained his home in the Los Angeles area, not far from the airport. He'd leave home at 9 am, fly to San Francisco at 9:15, get to the gym in San Bruno before the 11 am practice and be home by three.

That schedule worked for him, because he averaged better than 20 points a game in both 1968 and 1969, leading the Warriors to the playoffs the first year and playing in the All-Star game in his second. But at the height of his career, LaRusso, citing a bad back and business opportunities, retired for the second time. This time it was final.

http://www.ivy50.com/story.aspx?sid=12/12/2006

[Owly]

Russell - duh
Cousy - duh
Sam Jones - duh
Hagan - duh when you consider big playoff performances on great core. I think I might push for him next top 100.
Twyman - Pretty killer peak

After that I’m struggling. I guess Costello and I’ll probably vote for Fulks again. If either Gola and Rodgers are HOF level shouldn’t them, Arizin and Wilt have been more dominant core? Or it just looks bad on Wilt...

Rodgers yes, he isn't that level, bad defender, bad shooter, even by the standards of the time seems 1 handed (v. limited sample of footage available here but recall seeing a layup where it seemed like it would be much simpler with the other hand - could be conventions of the time but it looked odd).

Gola, not really an advocate but maybe you could make a case for him as a good 50s player, with some utility as role player with Wilt at the start of the 60s, fading (yes, all-star later, no, I don't think that means anything with the [iirc] 3-a-team cap and thus effectively 2 a team requirement, between that, fitting positions, lesser information/footage available and people not necessarily trying to pick the best players, it's bad even by the standards of a proxy). He's more renowned for his pre-pro days though.

[Dutchball97]

After my initial 6 I was also looking at Gola and Rodgers but I don't think either are good enough for the HoF. I might just keep my list at 6 for this round tbh.

[70sFan]

Locks:

Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Sam Jones
Cliff Hagan
Jack Twyman
Richie Guerin

Then it starts to be tougher. I think I'd go with:

Larry Costello - efficient scorer, good playmaker, good defender by all accounts and played on successful teams throughout his career.
Rudy LaRusso - excellent contributor to very strong 1960s Lakers team, then he became a star in San Francisco. A shame that he retired so early.
Willie Naulls - he was an all-star with weak Knicks team and in games I've seen he looks very good offensively (really good shooter and crafty inside). He also was quite important piece for Celtics titles, people rarely mention him but he wasn't just a bench player.

Other players worth consideration:

Red Kerr - solid defender and rebounder, very good passer but weak scorer and from what I've seen he wasn't the most athletic player. I can see him over Naulls, but I prefer what I've seen from Willie.
KC Jones - excellent defender (not only by reputation, he was a monster) but very limited offensively.
Tom Gola - excellent all-around player in the 1950s and very good roleplayer in the 1960s. I think that his lack of scoring hurts his case a bit, but I also can see him over Naulls.
George Yardley - short career but good scoring prime and he had some playoff success in mid-50s (I know that he's not considered anymore, but I forgot about him last time).

Big no:

Guy Rodgers - excellent passer that didn't do anything else. Not a good defender, terrible scorer and very limited offensive player overall. Can't see him there, despite good assists stats.
Wayne Embry - solid career but I don't see why he should be in HoF. He was solid finisher and rebounder, but playing with Oscar certainly helped him and he wasn't great defender. It's quite strong class compared to other we've done so far and I don't see him making it now.

[penbeast0]

KC is the Ben Wallace of PGs only in the least important defensive/most important offensive position.

[penbeast0]

Larry Costello v. Tom Gola

Typical Costello prime season -- (1958) 38.1mpg 14.9ppg 5.3rpg 4.4apg on .510ts% (league .449)
Typical Gola prime season -- (1959) 36.5mpg 14.1ppg 11.1rpg 4.2spg on .484ts$ (league .457)

Costello is a better shooter, has a FT% of .841 career v. Gola's ,760 and more range. Neither were considered primary scorers. Gola had 7 seasons playing big minutes, Costello only 3. Gola gets you appreciably more rebounds, similar points/assists. Gola a bit more of a rep for defense, both considered good. Gola's ability to play PG while defending up to forwards makes him more unique. Costello never had the talent around him that Gola had (Arizin, Wilt) until late career on the Sixers.

I don't see a good case for Costello over Gola here. I have Gola pretty easily. He wasn't a big scorer so he may not make the HOF, but he did everything else and in a way that was unique until Oscar entered the league.

[penbeast0]

My list:

Russell (duh)
Cliff Hagan -- maybe the best 2nd guy in the league, upped his game in the playoffs
Sam Jones -- 2nd most valuable Celtic to the course of the dynasty
Arizin -- great 50s player who maintained his game into the 60s (though the league got stronger)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cousy -- flashiest player of the 50s who scored and got assists in bunches. Consistent playoff shooting failures in the Russell years and those assist didn't lead the Russell Celtics to decent offenses, but instead to generally bottom of the league performances but gets in for his 50s performances.
Tom Gola -- I like him more than most but then I like players who contribute in ways other than just scoring. Great rebounding wing guard who could cover 1-4 and be the primary playmaker when Al Attles came in for defense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twyman -- scorer, the human side of his dealings with Maurice Stokes is one of the greatest stories in NBA history
Guerin -- scorer with some playmaking
Naulls -- scorer with some rebounding chops
LaRusso -- defensive stretch 4 next to Baylor, 2 good scoring years in San Francisco, good teammate from what I read

HM: KC Jones. Top defensive point of era (over Attles), may be worst offensive PG to ever play. Couldn't even get points and assists in that hyper uptempo Boston system.

Guy Rodgers was not a good player, one dimensional passer who could bring the ball up against pressure and throw it in to Wilt. No defense, poor shooter. Not getting a vote from me.
Larry Costello doesn't jump off the board in any way, solid all around player but not star in any way.
Embry/Kerr are meh offensive centers. Embry has solid defensive rep as a man defender, strong pick setter, not a rim protector.

[kipper34]

These guys definitely have to be in

Bill Russell
Bob Cousy
Sam Jones
Jack Twyman
Cliff Hagan

For the next 5 I'd go

Richie Guerin
Probably the best of the non-locks. When he was with the Knicks he was one of the best scoring guards in the league. Got to the line a lot and maintained pretty high efficiency for most of his career, even as he increased his load. Strong passer as a 2 guard as well.

Red Kerr
I think he gets underrated historically. His ability to fit in with other stars bumps him up. Really good passer and a pretty solid shooter. By all accounts a decent defender as well. Played a major role in a lot of great offences.

Larry Costello
One of the best defensive guards of that era, up there with KC Jones, Al Attles and Slater Martin. Not an elite offensive player but he was really efficient and fine passer.

Rudy Larusso
Underrated part of those 60s Laker teams. A lot of Celtics have talked about how much they hated playing him. Really strong defender and rebounder. Upped his volume but his efficiency took a big hit. But a perfect third star for West and Baylor.

KC Jones
I keep going back and forth between KC, Willie Naulls and Tom Gola. KC was obviously a fantastic defender who was pretty **** offensively (although an underrated passer but still couldn't score). If Slater Martin is in I think KC Should be as well.

[70sFan]

I find it interesting that people are so clearly on Twyman > Guerin.

Twyman was phenomenal shooter with decent rebounding but he wasn't much of a factor other than that. He was excellent off-ball player who could score a lot through his shooting ability. I don't view him as a strong defender.

Guerin was an on-ball creator who was excellent passer and his handles and driving ability made him very solid playmaker. He was also a nice shooter but he used oldschool setshot instead of quick jumpshot like Twyman. In games I've seen he looked very solid defensively too.


I view Guerin as a better playmaker and comparable scorer, with additional edge on defense. Why do you think that Twyman was better? I'm quite high on both of them, but I don't see reasonable case for Jack here.

[Owly]

Larry Costello v. Tom Gola

Typical Costello prime season -- (1958) 14.9ppg 5.3rpg 4.4apg on .510ts% (league .449)
Typical Gola prime season -- (1959) 36.5 mpg 14.1ppg 11.1rpg 4.2spg on .484ts$ (league .457)

Costello is a better shooter, has a FT% of .841 career v. Gola's ,760 and more range. Neither were considered primary scorers. Gola had 7 seasons playing big minutes, Costello only 3. Gola gets you appreciably more rebounds, similar points/assists. Gola a bit more of a rep for defense, both considered good. Gola's ability to play PG while defending up to forwards makes him more unique. Costello never had the talent around him that Gola had (Arizin, Wilt) until late career on the Sixers.

I don't see a good case for Costello over Gola here. I have Gola pretty easily. He wasn't a big scorer so he may not make the HOF, but he did everything else and in a way that was unique until Oscar entered the league.

The case ...

Better box composites (v small difference in PER, larger in WS/48).
Did better staying relevant as the league got better (versus Gola shrinking in the 60s - though one could just as well re-frame as Costello failed to dominate in a weaker era in his first couple of years - so wouldn't advocate for this).
Purer shooter, valuable to a team playing with a big doing significant scoring/ball-having, as seemed common at the time.