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Everyone looks at 2003 at being his peak. But I always felt like it could be 1999. Because it is likely his best combination of both offensive and defensive production. Posted 2nd highest AST production, highest ORtg of his prime years. Shot 30 points higher than he did in 2003. Take a look. 99 Suns have 4th best offense efficiency in league while 03 Nets are 18th.

Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.

More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98, and Kidd was not known for leading elite offenses after that.

I think you might say that ‘98-99 was Kidd’s best offensive season because the rest of the league wasn’t playing it’s beat.


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There's one thing about BBRef.
ORtg and DRtg numbers on player profile pages are estimations of how many points they would produce or allow if they had those numbers across 100 possessions.

You need to check on/off section on team pages to see +/- driven numbers.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1999/on-off/
The Suns had 105.4 ORtg and 101.5 DRtg with Kidd in 1998-99 season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/2003/on-off/
The Nets had 106.4 ORtg and 97.9 DRtg with Kidd in 2002-03 season.

According to NBA.com;
In 1998-99, the Suns had 103.9 ORtg, with Kidd 105.3 and without Kidd 95.6 (+9.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 100.4.
In 2002-03, the Nets had 102.1 ORtg, with Kidd 104.7 and without Kidd 94.0 (+10.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 102.2.

Doctor MJ wrote:Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.
More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98, and Kidd was not known for leading elite offenses after that.
I think you might say that ‘98-99 was Kidd’s best offensive season because the rest of the league wasn’t playing it’s beat.

I think we should also care for how his teams fell of a cliff on offense without him on the court.
In 2001-02 season, the Nets had a drop off by 8.6 ORtg when Kidd sat out. In the next season, it was 11.9.

Not sure how much he evolved from PHX to NJ but the Nets surrounded him with athletes while his frontcourt and wings with the Suns consisted of mostly stiffs (compared to Kittles, Martin and Jefferson).

Yes it is either that or 2001.

Odinn21 wrote:There's one thing about BBRef.
ORtg and DRtg numbers on player profile pages are estimations of how many points they would produce or allow if they had those numbers across 100 possessions.

You need to check on/off section on team pages to see +/- driven numbers.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1999/on-off/
The Suns had 105.4 ORtg and 101.5 DRtg with Kidd in 1998-99 season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/2003/on-off/
The Nets had 106.4 ORtg and 97.9 DRtg with Kidd in 2002-03 season.

According to NBA.com;
In 1998-99, the Suns had 103.9 ORtg, with Kidd 105.3 and without Kidd 95.6 (+9.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 100.4.
In 2002-03, the Nets had 102.1 ORtg, with Kidd 104.7 and without Kidd 94.0 (+10.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 102.2.

Doctor MJ wrote:Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.
More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98, and Kidd was not known for leading elite offenses after that.
I think you might say that ‘98-99 was Kidd’s best offensive season because the rest of the league wasn’t playing it’s beat.

I think we should also care for how his teams fell of a cliff on offense without him on the court.
In 2001-02 season, the Nets had a drop off by 8.6 ORtg when Kidd sat out. In the next season, it was 11.9.

Okay. Let me first note that you're not rebutting my statement, you're just pointing something that's an indicator of Kidd being an excellent player. Quite true.

You might want to look at want to look at '97-98 though.

Those Suns teams were incredibly talented offensively in a SUPER defensive league but I think Kidd was just as good offensively on the Nets and his defensive impact was ENORMOUS

Doctor MJ wrote:

Odinn21 wrote:There's one thing about BBRef.
ORtg and DRtg numbers on player profile pages are estimations of how many points they would produce or allow if they had those numbers across 100 possessions.

You need to check on/off section on team pages to see +/- driven numbers.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1999/on-off/
The Suns had 105.4 ORtg and 101.5 DRtg with Kidd in 1998-99 season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/2003/on-off/
The Nets had 106.4 ORtg and 97.9 DRtg with Kidd in 2002-03 season.

According to NBA.com;
In 1998-99, the Suns had 103.9 ORtg, with Kidd 105.3 and without Kidd 95.6 (+9.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 100.4.
In 2002-03, the Nets had 102.1 ORtg, with Kidd 104.7 and without Kidd 94.0 (+10.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 102.2.

Doctor MJ wrote:Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.
More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98, and Kidd was not known for leading elite offenses after that.
I think you might say that ‘98-99 was Kidd’s best offensive season because the rest of the league wasn’t playing it’s beat.

I think we should also care for how his teams fell of a cliff on offense without him on the court.
In 2001-02 season, the Nets had a drop off by 8.6 ORtg when Kidd sat out. In the next season, it was 11.9.

Okay. Let me first note that you're not rebutting my statement, you're just pointing something that's an indicator of Kidd being an excellent player. Quite true.

You might want to look at want to look at '97-98 though.

Oh, my intention wasn't a rebuttal. Sometimes I can be supportive of you from a different angle, you know. I think posting league averages next to Kidd's numbers clearly showed he wasn't Nash or CP3 elevating a team's offense from a league average. Just pointed out he still had a big impact on offense even though not to that extent.

Odinn21 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Odinn21 wrote:There's one thing about BBRef.
ORtg and DRtg numbers on player profile pages are estimations of how many points they would produce or allow if they had those numbers across 100 possessions.

You need to check on/off section on team pages to see +/- driven numbers.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1999/on-off/
The Suns had 105.4 ORtg and 101.5 DRtg with Kidd in 1998-99 season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/2003/on-off/
The Nets had 106.4 ORtg and 97.9 DRtg with Kidd in 2002-03 season.

According to NBA.com;
In 1998-99, the Suns had 103.9 ORtg, with Kidd 105.3 and without Kidd 95.6 (+9.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 100.4.
In 2002-03, the Nets had 102.1 ORtg, with Kidd 104.7 and without Kidd 94.0 (+10.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 102.2.


I think we should also care for how his teams fell of a cliff on offense without him on the court.
In 2001-02 season, the Nets had a drop off by 8.6 ORtg when Kidd sat out. In the next season, it was 11.9.

Okay. Let me first note that you're not rebutting my statement, you're just pointing something that's an indicator of Kidd being an excellent player. Quite true.

You might want to look at want to look at '97-98 though.

Oh, my intention wasn't a rebuttal. Sometimes I can be supportive of you from a different angle, you know. I think posting league averages next to Kidd's numbers clearly showed he wasn't Nash or CP3 elevating a team's offense from a league average. Just pointed out he still had a big impact on offense even though not to that extent.

RAPM tells us this too. Kidd was routinely a top 5 player by RAPM and long term studies put him as a top 10 player by ORAPM from 02-11.

Doctor MJ wrote:Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.

More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98...

Important pieces from 98 were not there in 99, McDyess, KJ, Ceballos, Nash (granted Ceballos only played 35 games in 1998)

Odinn21 wrote:There's one thing about BBRef.
ORtg and DRtg numbers on player profile pages are estimations of how many points they would produce or allow if they had those numbers across 100 possessions.

You need to check on/off section on team pages to see +/- driven numbers.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1999/on-off/
The Suns had 105.4 ORtg and 101.5 DRtg with Kidd in 1998-99 season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/2003/on-off/
The Nets had 106.4 ORtg and 97.9 DRtg with Kidd in 2002-03 season.

According to NBA.com;
In 1998-99, the Suns had 103.9 ORtg, with Kidd 105.3 and without Kidd 95.6 (+9.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 100.4.
In 2002-03, the Nets had 102.1 ORtg, with Kidd 104.7 and without Kidd 94.0 (+10.7 on/off difference) while the league average was 102.2.

Doctor MJ wrote:Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.
More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98, and Kidd was not known for leading elite offenses after that.
I think you might say that ‘98-99 was Kidd’s best offensive season because the rest of the league wasn’t playing it’s beat.

I think we should also care for how his teams fell of a cliff on offense without him on the court.
In 2001-02 season, the Nets had a drop off by 8.6 ORtg when Kidd sat out. In the next season, it was 11.9.

Do these take into account how good backups, the bench is?

SHAQ32 wrote:Do these take into account how good backups, the bench is?

No. What you're asking is what RAPM tries to accomplish. Eliminating situational lineups.

I always view Nets Kidd as the best version

SHAQ32 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Note that while the relative ORtg is elite, the Suns were a more effective offense the previous year.

More over, the Suns would never run a better offense than they do in ‘97-98...

Important pieces from 98 were not there in 99, McDyess, KJ, Ceballos, Nash (granted Ceballos only played 35 games in 1998)

Indeed.

There were people in the Suns organization who responded to the trade of Nash saying "Why are you trading our best point guard?" That sounds like revisionist history, but Nash was scoring more per minute, on much better efficiency, and the team doing so well when he was on the floor had everything to do with why the Kidd had a negative on/off that year.

And thus the reason why the Suns "couldn't win a game without Kidd" the following year had a lot to do with them trading away a talent many in the organization did NOT want traded away, and swore to get back...which is how Nash ends up back in Phoenix a few years later winning MVPs.

Y'all I know that this comes across as Kidd-bashing, but I swear, I see Kidd as a clear cut HOFer and all-time great. It's just that we're specifically talking about '99 here and Kidd's on/off which is HUGE in '99. Things adjacent to that, seem relevant.