REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 2015 or earlier)

[penbeast0]

BAA/NBA/ABA playing careers only; we are not including college, Olympic, foreign, etc. You can select up to 10 players (you do not HAVE to fill out your list). They do not have to be in order. The 10 players with the most votes make the HOF. Voting will stay open as long as there is active interest. We take the top 10 votegetters, in case of a tie, I will go back and ask everyone to vote on just the tied players, ranking them in order with just 1st place votes counting, then 2nd if 1st ties again, etc.

Shaq (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, worldjbfree, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ, trex_8063)
Jason Kidd (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, worldjbfree, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ, trex_8063)
Steve Nash (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, worldjbfree, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ, trex_8063)
Chauncey Billups (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, worldjbfree, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ, trex_8063)
Ben Wallace (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, worldjbfree, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ)

Ray Allen (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ, trex_8063)
Rasheed Wallace (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Narigo, BenoUdrihFTL, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ)
Grant Hill (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Narigo, Dutchball97, Doctor MJ, trex_8063)
hawn Marion (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Narigo, BenoUdrihFTL, trex_8063)
Tracy McGrady (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Narigo, Dutchball97, trex_8063)

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

Retired 1960 or before

Retired 1965 or before

Retired 1970 or before

Retired 1975 or before

Retired 1980 or before

Retired 1985 or before

Retired 1990 or before

Retired 1995 or before

Retired 2000 or before

Retired 2005 or before

Retired 2010 or before

[penbeast0]

The top guys who didn't get voted in last time:
Penny Hardaway
Vlade Divac
Terry Porter

Some notable players who retired in this time span:
Shaq
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen

Jermaine O'Neal
Ben Wallace
Steve Nash
Yao Ming
Peja Stojakovic

Michael Redd
Sam Cassell
Baron Davis
Gilbert Arenas
Chauncey Billups

Shawn Marion
Carlos Boozer
Brandon Roy
Kirilenko

[penbeast0]

Without looking at the numbers, I looked at guys I consider pretty much locks and came up with 10 already. These are my official votes unless someone makes the case for someone I didn't put in:

Shaq
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen

Ben Wallace
Steve Nash
Rasheed Wallace
Chauncey Billups
Shawn Marion

[eminence]

AK47 needs some love here. Not sure if he'll get my vote or not.

Have to think last ballot was the best opportunity for a lot of older guys to get in, not sure there will be another opening like that.

[trex_8063]

Without looking at the numbers, I looked at guys I consider pretty much locks and came up with 10 already. These are my official votes unless someone makes the case for someone I didn't put in:

Shaq
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen

Ben Wallace
Steve Nash
Gilbert Arenas
Chauncey Billups
Shawn Marion

One guy really stands out to me among players you're labeling "locks".

Arenas entered the league pretty good, hit a tremendous 3-year stretch fairly early on, but then got injured and his career was basically OVER at 26 years old.
All he's got to show for his career is three All-NBA honors (one 2nd, two 3rd team), one top-10 finish in the MVP vote (8th), five playoff appearances (only two as a consistent starter, though one other team he helped lead to playoffs: bounced in the first round four of those, 2nd round for the other), best team(s) he led were 45 wins (though negative SRS) or a +1.56 SRS. Team seemed to more or less tread water at same level the year after he went down, fwiw.

His career minutes are damn near doubled by a player like Terry Porter (who has a superior career WS/48 and BPM......for both rs and playoffs).
Gilbert's best 5-years RAPM added up are +9.2.......Porter's is +12.37 (bearing in mind we're missing some of Porter's prime, whereas we have ALL of Gilbert's career covered).
This while playing at the same position, and having a career played prior to hand-check restriction, fwiw, whereas ALL of Gilbert's best years happened after the rule change.

I don't think I'd be out of bounds in suggesting Porter was a little better defender, too.


To each is own. I just find it a curious "lock" given the other players on the table.
That's without even getting into guys like Tim Hardaway, Vlade Divac, Penny Hardaway, or Mitch Richmond.

[Doctor MJ]

So I've thought about it some, and I have 9 guys who are clearly in the lead now from the new class, and I expect possibly several of them to be minority opinion.

I have 4 guys that seem clearly better than anyone from the last class:

Shaquille O'Neal - King of the Class
Steve Nash - y'know how high I am on him. 'nuff said
Jason Kidd - earned a spot and then some
Ray Allen - unimpeachable resume

Then I have, would you believe it, 4 Pistons:

Ben Wallace - the symbol of the 2004 championship, the man they built around, MVP of the year, source of team identity
Rasheed Wallace - maybe more a Blazer than a Piston, but his body of work is big
Chauncey Billups - often seen as the best all-around player of the 3 teammates
Grant Hill - superstar who recovered from injury to be an outstanding role player

The last of the 9?

Baron Davis - this wasn't simply a showdown between 1999 Draft guys, but there are a lot of guys there that are pretty debatable relative to each other, and I'm sure it's far from obvious that I picked Baron from that bunch. Why?

Well first to be clear, Manu Ginobili isn't eligible for 2015. If he were he'd have been the #1 guy from 1999.

Okay, so next, I'm expecting folks know that Baron's had some success as a star. Understandable if he's filed away as a C-lister with low efficiency and that makes him seem like he just isn't at this level, but as is often the case, +/- analysis is at the roots for why I'm championing him.

Basically, I did a bunch of analysis along these lines, and looked to see what popped out.

First thing, if you go by ElGee's +/- GOAT list, there is no one on that list ahead of Davis who I'm putting Davis ahead of here.

If we take guys eligible here, here's the leaderboard:

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Jason Kidd
3. Steve Nash
4. Rasheed Wallace
5. Ray Allen
6. Baron Davis
7. Vlade Divac
8. Shawn Marion
9. Grant Hill
10. Eddie Jones

I'm not saying you should just go by this, I'm certainly not, but based on stuff like this, Baron's in the conversation (as are Divac, Marion, and Hill).

Now, I've mentioned before that as we neared the modern era of players I started doing some team based +/-, most of it just raw +/- leaderboards. (Spreadsheet)

I was hoping this would prove insightful because I think in general you have to understand +/- stats in a team context to understand what's going on. While it's very valuable to be the 2nd or 3rd best guy on a team, it's worth understanding who is consistently making their team win more when they are on the court compared to teammates. Doing it once or twice could be a fluke, but doing it more means something I think.

The spreadsheet sheet linked directly to above has a leaderboard which I wouldn't use to start your analysis (look at the other tabs), but it summarizes things well.

Of the guys I expect to be candidates here, here's what the leaderboard looks like:

8 - Jason Kidd, Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash
7 - Baron Davis
5 - Ray Allen
4 - Eddie Jones, Mookie Blaylock, Rasheed Wallace
3 - Ben Wallace, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Rashard Lewis, Tim Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, Vlade Divac, Yao Ming
2- Shawn Marion
1 - Andrei Kirilenko, Brandon Roy, Chauncey Billups, Gilbert Arenas, Jermaine O'Neal, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Sam Cassell

So obviously, Davis is a stand out by this approach. Before I get into this group, let me mention some examples that also place highly:

Kyle Korver - 7 - I actually think this is something of a big deal and if he were eligible may well vote for him, but he's not

Lou Williams - 6 - This says good things, but small good things. This happened as 6th Man on bad teams, and should not make you fundamentally rethink Lou. It's a great example of how this can be meaningful, but not in a player-ranking way.

Bo Outlaw - 5 - Actually is eligible, but my impression is that this is more about being the most effective player on meh teams. I'll listen if someone else wants to make a case for him, but I wasn't prepared to do it.

Also worth noting:

The top 4 players on this list were "dominant" over extended runs, and also led more than one team. Interestingly, the most dominant run of all of the is arguably Baron Davis who led his team in +/- totals 7 times in 8 years (4 years on CHA/NOH, and 3 out of 4 on GS).

Additionally, Mookie 4-peated, Sheed led 4 out of 5 years in Portland, and Hill 3-peated in Detroit, and Penny & McGrady both 3-peated in Orlando. (Also Bo Outlaw 3-peated for the Clippers.)

Those are your top tier "primes" for +/- dominance of this bunch (and Outlaw).

I would not advocate for ranking by this dominance, so much as I'm using it to paint a picture, and make clear why it is when I did all of this analysis, Baron Davis was the non-obvious guy who popped.

Now further on Davis:

He's notoriously an inefficient shooter. So even if he's the MVP of meh teams, does that perhaps indicate a hard ceiling? To be frank, I've looked at this being ready to write him off...but Baron kicks ass in the playoffs. Seriously, he's the driving force on to of the most resounding upsets in recent playoff history (Charlotte over Miami, Golden State over Dallas.) and when he was doing that, his efficiency got a lot better. I don't want to just ignore the efficiency issue, but I can't claim it's any kind of a true ceiling given what I saw him do in the post-season.

Davis' career falls off a cliff when he goes to the Clippers and it's appropriate to knock him for not having further longevity, but I'll just say: What happened on the Clippers was awful. You have Davis coming to play with Elton Brand, and Brand deciding to leave. WTF? How can that even happen? It's so strange I'm not sure how to categorize it, but I can say that I can imagine anyone being happy to play for Donald Sterling, and if the reason you were going there just left, I think you'd struggle to fight the good fight too.

F Donald Sterling.

Okay, a bit on the obvious "How could you leave him off?!" guy:

I'm not all that impressed by McGrady's career. You might note that Shawn Marion is a legit candidate here, and you might remember that I have major negative penalties I attach to Marion for pushing his way out of the only situation that would make him Hall-worthy because of his ego. That's probably going to keep him from getting my vote here...but it's frankly mild compared to what I see from TMac.

Marion leaves Phoenix at 29 and falls into obscurity.

McGrady? He leaves Orlando at age 24 after he'd already left another team. This is a guy who chose to leave one team because he was overshadowed, then chose to leave the next because he didn't have enough help, and then lifted his new team like not at all. McGrady tends to get cut slack because the team was still good, but this was a guy with crap efficiency basically his whole career - yah think maybe the Rockets don't underachieve so reliably if McGrady's actually using Yao & co to make sure he himself puts up only good shots?

I see McGrady as he was as a floor raiser who wasn't happy being a floor raiser, and volume scorer who didn't adapt despite the fact it made sense for him to adapt at a super-young age.

By contrast, Grant Hill is 28 when injury cripples his career, it takes him years to recover, and he still finds a way to be very valuable in his 30s. Drastically more impressive.

I also favor Penny over McGrady if forced to choose. Yes he fell off harder than TMac after his peak, but we know that injuries were a big part of it, and we know that Penny could efficiently synergize with Shaq. I can't emphasize enough that there's a real argument to be made that Penny was more valuable than Shaq for the Magic in a way Kobe was not with Shaq. In another universe, with minor changes, we may well be talking about Penny's Finals MVPs. McGrady? He was only ever "TMac" on bad teams. When he was with good talent, he was always inefficient, and never a +/- king.

[penbeast0]

You are right about Arenas. Was thinking his prime was appreciably longer. And forgot Rasheed Wallace. So, I will switch those two out.

[Doctor MJ]

AK47 needs some love here. Not sure if he'll get my vote or not.

Have to think last ballot was the best opportunity for a lot of older guys to get in, not sure there will be another opening like that.

Wanted to say:

Big fan of Kirilenko. Hope he does gets some arguments for him here. I'd enjoy being convinced to side with him, but I have to admit I was hoping for more out of his career than we got.

[Dutchball97]

I have 6 guys I'm definitely voting for but after that it gets difficult once again. First my locks:

Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace
Chauncey Billups

After that I'm pretty sure I'm going to give my vote to Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady. The last two spots are competitive as hell though. Yao Ming, Jermaine O'Neal, Rasheed Wallace and Peja Stojakovic are all worthy guys from this class and there are a bunch of guys from previous classes I'd still like to consider as well.

[Dr Positivity]

No need to discuss:

Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen

Pretty much sure things:

Chauncey Billups - His prime was short-ish, otherwise I see him as an easy HOF level player as his offensive game was ahead of its time, played D, and was finals MVP and best player on champion/finals team

Ben Wallace - I’m not going to leave someone off with that many DPOYs who was a leader of a champion

After that I’m leaning pretty strongly towards Tmac, Hill, Marion and Sheed. Tmac and Hill have superstar peaks for enough of a time, and Hill came back as solid role player. Marion’s Dallas title might get him over the edge. Sheed was a key part of champion and high impact player.

Yao got injured a bit too much in my opinion. AK falls off too fast, during the prime Deron/Boozer/Okur years AK is not even close to HOF level to me. Baron is too much of a low IQ shot selection type of player to me. Jermaine O’Neal, Arenas prime a bit too short. Boozer, no. I like Porter, Peja and Divac a lot but hard competition. A player who could deserve some fringe consideration is Rip Hamilton, while I understand he’s fallen out of fashion, he still had a good 10 year prime and contributed to a champion core. Also HM to Battier though it would just feel wrong to vote him over some of these stars like Tmac.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The top guys who didn't get voted in last time:
Penny Hardaway
Vlade Divac
Terry Porter

Some notable players who retired in this time span:
Shaq
Grant Hill
Jason Kidd
Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen

Jermaine O'Neal
Ben Wallace
Steve Nash
Yao Ming
Peja Stojakovic

Michael Redd
Sam Cassell
Baron Davis
Gilbert Arenas
Chauncey Billups

Shawn Marion
Carlos Boozer
Brandon Roy
Kirilenko

Very strong class, even deeper than the 2005 one

Easy locks for me:
Shaq, obvious King
Nash, no comment
Wallace R., he really changed the Pistons. I think an underachiever but still a super portable difference maker
Wallace B., short peak but really, really high and in a winning team
Billups, one of my favorites. Once his career took off his game was incredibly linked to winning, see also his Denver stint. Could have had enormous longevity, his game translated perfectly fr 35+ yo production, too bad for the career ending injuries
Kidd, no comment
Allen, the weakest for the big three, but impacted winning throughout his career and super portable

Now it becomes fuzzy
* I haven't given up on Kukoc, he has a great case and historical value, ahead of his time
* I really dislike Tmac total, complete lack of PO success
* same for Grant Hill in his prime, not sure what to take for his Suns years. And here we're not looking at college
* Yao's prime to short and just not good enough
* Davis is the one that peaked higher, in my view, as he actually made the difference in the post season, both with the Hornets and the Warriors
* Cassel I think is another good option, another guy who's game strongly correlated with winning, in all teams he played for
* Peja short peak and not high enough, especially in the post season
* Jermaine is again an ok pick, decent success, offensively grossly overrated
* Marion would have been a lock had he stayed with the Suns, as he was super modern 4 who contributed changing the game
* in this group Webber was not going to make it

At the moment I close with
* Kukoc
* Davis
* Cassell

Somehow I thought it was already time for Kobe, Timmeh and Garnett...

[Doctor MJ]

* I haven't given up on Kukoc, he has a great case and historical value, ahead of his time

Did you make a longer case for him? Apologies if I missed it. I'll say that I'm expecting to have room for one guy who was previously passed over. Currently that would be between the guys who almost made it last time Porter, Divac, or Hardaway, but I'll certainly listen to arguments for others. (Voted for Divac & Hardaway last time so those guys are in the lead, but Porter's got a good case too.)

* same for Grant Hill in his prime, not sure what to take for his Suns years. And here we're not looking at college

At one point in my player ranking history a comeback like Hill's didn't matter much to me. Great that he made the come back, but if we're debating between All-NBA guys, how much should more seasons as a role player-level guy matter?

At this point I see it more in terms of the overall "shape" of the player. If two guys have about the same level of peak, but one guy can adapt to fit the needs of a team and the other simply can not, then the former is generally a smarter, more flexible, well-rounded guy with higher resiliency and a better locker room presence. That stuff may not have made an obvious difference when both players were good enough to have their franchise cater to their needs, but realistically it was giving the team more options for building a champion even then.

I also feel a need to emphasize what a big deal Grant Hill was. He was embraced as a mainstream star from Day 1 in the NBA and then pretty quickly lived up to it. Through his time in Detroit (6 years), there was zero question as to who the best player in the 2004 draft was (Hill >> Kidd to that point), and he was playing in a proto-LeBron style that worked very well and seemed to have the potential to scale.

It frankly would have made a lot of sense if he never figured out how to be a role player, given that he was playing as an alpha from Day 1 and wasn't asked to bend his game around others until his 30s, but he adapted superbly and was an excellent role player that was quite valuable through the age of 39.

By contrast with TMac, this was a guy who was asked to blend in a secondary guy in his first few years in Toronto and it didn't go great (low efficiency, negligible impact), who after a brief run as the official franchise player of a team (Orlando), chose to go somewhere specifically to play with another player who was already the MVP of a playoff team and they would spend the next half decade not getting any further until a season where the team played mostly without TMac (injury) where a core of with Shane Battier as the big minute player would get to the 2nd round and put up a good fight there against the champs.

It's worth noting that Rockets GM Morey was looked upon as a bit of a genius for rebuilding the Rockets without the team ever falling below .500, which was all the more remarkable given that it's not like they were starting from being a 65 win team. The fact that you can look at the Rockets' franchise index and would have no idea that that there was actually a massive core-transition after TMac/Yao is incredibly damning to both of those guys, but with Yao the reasons for his underwhelmingness are clear (injuries, obsolete player type) whereas with TMac superficially looks like precisely the type of player that would thrive as an MVP-type guy, and such was the expectation when he arrived in Houston as a 25 year old.

* Cassel I think is another good option, another guy who's game strongly correlated with winning, in all teams he played for

Eh, no thanks on Cassell for me, though I don't think you're crazy to appreciate the run of success he had from Milwaukee onward.

I'd object to the idea of associating him with winning teams all the way through his career. His 20s consistent of failing to stick on team after team before finally getting traction on his 5th team (Bucks), and from there he had a really nice 30s career. I think the fact he was a part of those Rockets teams makes us think of him as a top tier role player, but he was a back up on those teams who was way less important than, say, Robert Horry or Kenny Smith.

I'll add that it leaves a sour taste in my mouth the way things ended in Minnesota. This is a guy who as a 34 year old, who had just had surgery demanded a contract extension, deliberately missed the start of training camp, and then played with a crappy attitude all year as the Timberwolves failed to play anywhere near the level they'd achieved the next season. Now, he was not the worst part of that that team's attitude problem (Latrell Sprewell), but Cassell is the level of player that I'd be hoping would be an absolute rock always bringing it, and always having a great leader-like attitude. To me that's like a given for any player worth talking about who wasn't all that great in his 20s, and he whiffs on it big time.

I do realize he landed on his feet with the Clippers, and I don't think there's any doubt that he was underpaid through his early 30s prime (because of his reputation in his 20s) which would motivate a player to get as much money as he could by the end of his career, but still, he's not going to be someone I seriously consider.

[penbeast0]

I am taking this as 3 votes so far:

Shaq (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)
Jason Kidd (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)
Steve Nash (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)

Chauncey Billups (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)
Ray Allen (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)
Ben Wallace (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)
Rasheed Wallace (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki)

Grant Hill (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity)
Tracy McGrady (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity)
Shawn Marion (penbeast0, Dr. Positivity)

Tony Kukoc (Ryoga Hibiki)
Baron Davis (Ryoga Hibiki)
Sam Cassell (Ryoga Hibiki)

[Dr Positivity]

I like the Sam Cassell shoutout. I should’ve considered him more last round.

Saying Baron peaked higher than Tmac and Hill is a bridge too far for me, I understand he has solid +/- but at some point you have to ask what he was doing on the court that would make him so special. Baron did a lot of the things that you would normally expect overrated players to do like take bad shots and have inconsistent effort, but for some reason has a good +/-. It’s also not like he’s a undeniable +/- juggernaut like Manu, it’s more like how Artest’s are very good, although maybe he should deserve consideration next round because wait, he played until 2017?

[Doctor MJ]

Also HM to Battier though it would just feel wrong to vote him over some of these stars like Tmac.

Felt the need to say:

I'm a huge Battier fan and most definitely considered him, but in the end I don't see him in this rare air.

What I'm seeing as we go through history is that there are guys who have mysteriously epic impact without lighting the world on fire with their PER, but Battier really does just seem like an excellent role player. Whatever your team is, Battier will find a way to jump in and make it a little better, but he's not going to turn around your franchise.

Since you mentioned TMac I'll say this:

I would struggle to put Battier over TMac too. I think the most you can say is that Battier may have been a more valuable player in Houston and a better fit on a serious title contender, but that's more damning of TMac than it is a reason to vote Battier. That Rockets core is not a group where we're asking how they won the championship, but a franchise where we're wondering how the hell they never managed to be a contender.

As I say all of that: If beast's criteria here told us to include college, Battier would be a lock for Hall status for me. Not because I'd value college drastically in general, but the fact that he did have about as good of a college career as anyone from the era and proved again and again that he could adapt and play well in a variety of NBA context paints a really impressive picture. I do find Battier really impressive, but pure NBA comparisons without a college boost leave him outside of the group of the most serious contenders for me.

[Doctor MJ]

I like the Sam Cassell shoutout. I should’ve considered him more last round.

Saying Baron peaked higher than Tmac and Hill is a bridge too far for me, I understand he has solid +/- but at some point you have to ask what he was doing on the court that would make him so special. Baron did a lot of the things that you would normally expect overrated players to do like take bad shots and have inconsistent effort, but for some reason has a good +/-. It’s also not like he’s a undeniable +/- juggernaut like Manu, it’s more like how Artest’s are very good, although maybe he should deserve consideration next round because wait, he played until 2017?

So, jumping in as a pro-Baron guy: I wouldn't really looking to be making a case based on Baron peaking higher than those two, though if you're impressed enough with what he did in the playoffs, it ain't crazy to say so.

Second, I'm not going to make a case for Baron over Grant Hill period. If it's between those two, I pick Hill no hesitation.

But Baron vs TMac career? Yeah, I'll take Baron, and I think it's telling to consider that both of these guys were born in the same year, and Baron joined the Warriors the same year as TMac joined the Rockets.

As I've said: The expectation of the Rockets was championships. This wasn't something thrust upon by the outside, this was how TMac saw it too when he was pushing his way out of Orlando. He saw Yao as his ticket to re-create Shaq-Kobe, and given that the team was already a playoff team, I mean, they ought to be able to get to the Conference Finals a bunch of time at least right? Instead, they never went further than the 1st round, and the team became maybe the best example of an inability of two players two synergize even after years together through their prime.

Baron on the other hand was joining a Golden State team that was considered a joke. They hadn't been to the playoffs (or had a winning record) in over a decade, and while they had a young core, they hadn't turned a corner. Golden State was hopeful Davis would make the difference, else they wouldn't have acquired him, but frankly the team was an afterthought. And yet Davis led them not just to the playoffs but to the 2nd round without a star teammate (granted Jason Richardson and Stephen Jackson were solid players, but neither would I rate as highly as Shane Battier let alone Yao Ming).

Now as I say all of this: I realize that in general those Rockets were the better team, and I understand if that presents a barrier you can't get passed, but there is an analogy here of two guys going to another team after their original breakthrough, and one player disappointing where the other one I think should be seen as possibly surpassing expectations.

Re: what was Baron doing on the court. Well first, go back and watch the Golden State series. Davis was the best player on the court over Dirk by a wide margin. He was able to do what he wanted on the court there, and I'll tell you there was something similar back in Charlotte in the playoffs.

Why the success in a nutshell? I tend to see Davis as one of these guys who his thick and heavy but mysteriously explosive. You can see drives where he collides with big men and the big men bounce off. And at least from my bkref, he seems to be driving to take those shots more in the playoffs than he does in the regular season. I don't know if he was conserving energy in the regular season or what, but in general Davis seems to me like a guy whose efficiency gets a lot higher when he decides to drive, and his playoff successes seemed to show a good deal of this.

Davis strength and explosion also allowed him to be tough on defense, and while you can question whether Davis in general called his number too much (given his regular season efficiency, I'd say yes, at least if he was going to shoot the shots he did), I've seen him make many, many great passes.

Re: inconsistent effort. That's been my feeling too, but damned if he didn't lead his team in +/- like clockwork. Doesn't mean he wasn't inconsistent, but there are lots of guys where low effort sees their impact fall off and go negative. Davis' +/- impact was honestly pretty remarkably consistent compared to anyone I'd debate him against.

Re: Not Ginobili. Agreed. He had strengths Ginobili did not - literally stronger, with "basketball strength" due to that thicc body of his - but I put Ginobili ahead of Baron no doubt about it. Of course I'd also rate Ginobili here ahead of anyone other than the top 4 and would consider him a lock in any of the HOF classes we've considered.

Re: Artest. First thing I want to say here is that the main reason Artest wouldn't be a serious candidate for me is because of the destruction he caused. He was a guy who should have been getting the attention that Jermaine O'Neal got in Indiana, and was well on his way to HOF lock status for me if he'd kept up doing what he was doing on that contending Pacer core. Destruction aside, while his post-Indiana career wasn't what we'd originally hoped, he was still an excellent player. He had years leading his team in +/- on 3 of the 4 teams he played with in his extended prime (Indiana, Sacramento, Lakers) and who was one of the key players on that '09 Rockets team that actually got to the 2nd round. To be perfectly honest, on pure basketball, I could see ranking Artest ahead of someone like TMac here.

To be absolutely explicit: I factor in the negative effects your behavior causes to your teams, and Artest's negative effects are HHHHUUUUGGGGEEEE and I would not be considering him because of them. If he were in this class and it came down to guys I'm low on compared to most like TMac or Marion, I'd pick those guys over Artest without hesitation.

Back to Davis though: Take away all the big-time negatives that Artest has, and then upgrade his +/- impact significantly. Davis is high on ElGee's +/- leaderboard, and Artest just isn't. Add in that Davis did it while actually carrying teams and was known for getting a lot more dominant when it really counted.

Last note: Davis' lack of efficiency should bother all of us and we should all think through what it means. Again, I think it's important to look at what he did in the playoffs - look at that shift in intensity, aggression, and success - and ask yourself whether he's really outclassed here. And when you're down on his regular season, remember he was still leading teams in on-court impact with a reliability you see from few other players.

Alright, I feel like I need to stop. Too much of me talking, other people need to form their own conclusions. Cheers!

[trex_8063]

Well, I'll tell you who I WON'T be voting for: Walt Bellamy!
I'm tired of wasting my vote. Doctor MJ teased me into thinking I might actually have at least one other person supporting him last round, but then cast his vote for Bernard King (another guy who scored a lot of points for mostly bad teams on good shooting efficiency, and didn't do much else [mediocre-poor defender, mediocre passer].......except Bellamy did it for a lot longer, and *likely had a better turnover economy).
*I say "likely" because, while obviously we can't know for sure about Bellamy, King had a fairly terrible turnover economy for a wing player.

Oh well, sour grapes .

Spoiler:

I know tone is difficult to interpret in text, so to be clear: I'm not really mad. Just teasing.

Shaq is the clear king of class, if I'm not overlooking someone. Nash and Kidd are rock-solid locks, as is Ray Allen and Chauncey Billups for me. I think Hill and McGrady are pretty close to a lock for me; I'll try to post the counterpoint to Doctor MJ's view on TMac later on. I suppose there's a little room after that for debate. Sheed is a likely pick for me, as are Marion and Big Ben. I guess unless I'm shaken by an argument, those would end up being my 10 picks. EDIT: Bellamy actually wouldn't make the cut for me against this class anyway.

[trex_8063]

Well, I'll tell you who I WON'T be voting for: Walt Bellamy!
I'm tired of wasting my vote. Doctor MJ teased me into thinking I might actually have at least one other person supporting him last round, but then cast his vote for Bernard King (another guy who scored a lot of points for mostly bad teams on good shooting efficiency, and didn't do much else [mediocre-poor defender, mediocre passer].......except Bellamy did it for a lot longer, and *likely had a better turnover economy).
*I say "likely" because, while obviously we can't know for sure about Bellamy, King had a fairly terrible turnover economy for a wing player.

Oh well, sour grapes .

Spoiler:

I know tone is difficult to interpret in text, so to be clear: I'm not really mad. Just teasing.

Shaq is the clear king of class, if I'm not overlooking someone. Nash and Kidd are rock-solid locks, as is Ray Allen and Chauncey Billups for me. I think Hill and McGrady are pretty close to a lock for me; I'll try to post the counterpoint to Doctor MJ's view on TMac later on. I suppose there's a little room after that for debate. Sheed is a likely pick for me, as are Marion and Big Ben. I guess unless I'm shaken by an argument, those would end up being my 10 picks. EDIT: Bellamy actually wouldn't make the cut for me against this class anyway.

Except for Terry Porter; forgot about him. He's the one guy who could displace someone at the back of this group.

[Doctor MJ]

Well, I'll tell you who I WON'T be voting for: Walt Bellamy!
I'm tired of wasting my vote. Doctor MJ teased me into thinking I might actually have at least one other person supporting him last round, but then cast his vote for Bernard King (another guy who scored a lot of points for mostly bad teams on good shooting efficiency, and didn't do much else [mediocre-poor defender, mediocre passer].......except Bellamy did it for a lot longer, and *likely had a better turnover economy).
*I say "likely" because, while obviously we can't know for sure about Bellamy, King had a fairly terrible turnover economy for a wing player.

Oh well, sour grapes .

Spoiler:

I know tone is difficult to interpret in text, so to be clear: I'm not really mad. Just teasing.

Hey trex,

I wanted to say: I get why you feel that frustration. Just so it's clear what happened, I went into that round basically looking to jump on board with guys from the past round who were gaining traction. I mentioned Bellamy ahead of time to signal that I would jump on board with him if he got said traction, and then delayed my vote until penbeast gave a summary of where the votes were.

At that point there were 17 guys who had received votes, and I chose from those 17 guys. I was willing to vote for Bellamy, but not champion him in the face of other posters not supporting him. I like Divac (who was my final selection) over Bellamy straight up, so I was only going to vote Bellamy over Divac in support of a pro-Bells movement. When Divac instead started getting the traction, it just didn't make sense for me to switch.

But I was thinking about what I'd said before and didn't feel great not voting Bellamy, particularly when you then placed your vote.

I know you're saying this with tongue in cheek, but I'm sorry to have played a part in leading you to a dead end nonetheless.
Cheers,
MJ

[Narigo]

Shaquille O'Neal
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Chauncey Billups
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace
Rasheed Wallace
Grant Hill
Tracy McGrady
Shawn Marion