70sFan wrote:trex_8063 wrote:Thanks for posting this; and absolutely I'd be happy/appreciative if you posted the full game here (please quote/notify me if you do!).
Enjoy!
Thanks so much! Full game footage from this era is such a treasure.
I've watched this thru three times now, not only to do some scouting, but also because I'm thinking of compiling a database of more complete stat-keeping for these eras, including shot distance data and possibly even +/- (though exact +/- will be difficult because you don't always know how many FT's were made, as they sort of edit out most of the FT breaks).
I've got some initial stats and shot data, which I'd focused only on a handful of key players I was interested in (Guerin, Naulls, and Green for the Knicks; Schayes, Kerr, Greer, Costello, and Gambee for the Nats). I'm not sure if my stat-keeping is 100% accurate, so I think I may go thru VERY slowly a fourth time and actually write out a play-by-play log for EVERY possession and player.
I've referenced the incomplete box-score on bbref, and there are some GLARING errors there pertaining to Red Kerr. For example, they credit him with 18 rebounds this game. I counted FIVE for him (initially I only credited him for FOUR, but decided to be generous on one that I'd previously labelled a team rebound). I don't know if whichever archivist for bbref input the wrong game data into that box-score or what; but I challenge anyone to find even HALF that number (or even a third) of rebounds for Kerr.
They also credit him for 6 assists; I counted 3 for him, although there was one I wasn't sure about. It occurs at 3:16 in the video on a Dave Gambee FG. He hands off to Gambee on the left elbow while sort of setting a screen; Gambee takes the hand-off moving to his right, but makes a hard cut back left, one dribble, and pulls up and shoots.
You always hear the old guys talk about how it was much harder to get an assist in their day......how today players can catch a pass, shot fake, take a dribble or two and the guy will still get credit for the assist, but how in their day the shot basically had to go up immediately.
Well, I tried to hedge somewhat toward that sentiment in crediting assists. Obviously there are judgment calls to be made in stat-keeping, assists being one example. I'm certainly willing to change my call on that play if you guys think it should be an assist; though that still only brings Kerr up to 4 for the game.
So either that "6" credited on bbref is another mistake/typo/mis-log; or if it's legit that completely blows up this myth that assists were harder to come by then. I'm not sure I can even find two other "maybe, if I'm really generous" type of assist plays for Kerr, though.
There appears to be another error in the number of FG's credited to Hal Greer. The bbref page says he made 5 FG's......I only count 4 (and I've been thru the footage three times now). I see one at 2:23, 24:00, 24:50, and 25:40. I don't see any others.
The only other place where I could conceivable see it occurring is at 1:27---->Greer misses the shot but is fouled.......although I see no indication of this from the ref, I suppose it is possible they called defensive basket interference on Phil Jordan (it doesn't look like a goal-tend either, fwiw). And since it's edited such that they only show the LAST free-throw attempt, we don't know for sure how many Greer took on that play (although the box-score page credits him with 6/6 on FT's for the game, so it's unlikely he was given an odd number of attempts here).
In short, unless there is a play missing from the footage, he did not have 5 FG's.
I guess I'll see [after I do complete play-by-play] if the FG's I see and FT data from bbref come out to equal the final score.
Other judgment calls may include who to credit with a steal when one guy knocks the ball loose or tips a pass and another guy is the one who recovers the ball.
Or who to credit with an offensive rebound when one guy underneath taps it out to where a perimeter player just happens to be. fwiw, I generally judge those plays based on how controlled/directionally-intended the tap was, and if the other guy was simply "right place, right time" and/or had to make no effort.
Some other general observations.....
ContactYeah they allowed a little more than they do today. It's not a total dirty grudge-match, but there were certainly multiple instances of uncalled excessive contact that I think would have been called more often than not today.
TravellingAlthough ball-handling restrictions were much tighter in general in the 60s, and although they appear to not allow much of a "gather step" upon receiving the ball here.......they're actually
more lackadaisical in calling a travel when guys shuffle the feet at the start of a drive. Saw several instances (Schayes and especially Guerin, in particular) where guys shuffle their feet at the start of a dribble-drive from a stand-still, and it's NOT called.
GuerinHe could ball. The almost flat-footed set shots from 22+ feet look so weird (Guerin's not the only one; pretty much everyone was); how do they even heave it that far while using NO legs?
But he otherwise has a jump shot, looks pretty fast moving North-South, and looks like a decent finisher around the rim, even in traffic or moving at really high speed.
The other thing I was really impressed by [not expecting, either] was Guerin's passing. I credited him with 11 assists (plus one "secondary assist" [the pass leading to the pass] and two FT assists). And a few of them were high-level dimes, imo.....
25:20 ---->runs into the double-team, mid-air redirect to throw a behind-the-back pass to Green, which leads to FT's.
28:50 ---->gets the steal on one end, makes a really nice delivery to Green on the fast-break. It looks like one of those touchdown plays starting from deep in the red zone, where the receiver runs one of those out slants, and the QB just lobs it up there; needs to put it in just the right spot to give him a chance of catching it in the corner of the end-zone. That's kinda how he lobs this one where Green can do something with it; and does so off the fast-dribble, with Green moving fast, too.
38:55 ---->Beautiful no-look pass to Phil Jordon. Sort of reminiscent of Larry Bird, actually.
He also is the game high in scoring (27 pts, going 13/27 from the field, MOSTLY unassisted, too). Just a lot of creation coming from Guerin.
KerrI wasn't terribly impressed with him on defense. He's sort of lazy and/or reluctant to come out and contest shooters; there are a couple of times where he just vaguely flaps an arm at Phil Jordon (who clearly has OK touch out to 13-15 feet) from several feet away. He doesn't come out or otherwise hedge pnr's, either; he'll shade the play from behind, but that's it. He MOSTLY boxes out, though I saw an instance or two where he didn't.
His passing [which was heralded by teammates and contemporaries] looks a little hit or miss. He seems willing to go for the high risk/high reward passes (the kind that facilitate high-leverage scoring opportunities when completed, but run high risk of turnover, too).
SchayesYeah, he looks really comfortable with either hand. Lot of shots taken with his left. He's fond of little runners or push-shots off of one foot. They look sort of funny [from a modern point of view], but he's got really nice touch on them.
I'm going to make the play-by-play log to be sure I got things right, but my initial shot data has him as 4 of 5 (80%) in the 3-10' range, and 1 of 2 (50%) from 10-16' (these were mostly those kinds of runners). I know it's just one game, but still.
Johnny GreenYeah, this guy was clearly an "NBA-level athlete", even by today's standards. He's quick, fast in the open-court, can really jump, and has a good motor. All this at a true 6'5" with sort of long(ish) arms.
He looks a little raw, skill-wise (I think I read somewhere that he never played basketball until he was like 17 or 18); but his athleticism bridges that gap). He's really active in this game, kinda fills up the box-score.
NaullsThis guy could shoot. Not just open catch-and-shoot looks either. He has one or two fairly hard contested ones. He's actually decent defensively and on the glass in this game, too.
ShafferHe looks like he can shoot, too. I wasn't focused on him in my initial data collection, but he certainly seems to have had a hot scoring game.
I'll stop there. Will post again with more complete data after I've assured myself I've got it all right with the complete play-by-play log.
Thanks again.