Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not?

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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#21 » by No-more-rings » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:10 am

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
BenoUdrihFTL wrote:When you look at raw pts/reb/ast, pts/100, OBPM and even efficiency they're both elite offensive machines in the PS. But Harden's onball-dominant "system" is simply easier to gameplan for (if the intent is to suffocate him and make someone else beat you) in a halfcourt playoff setting

I also think Harden probably goes harder and longer in the RS, making it somewhat inevitable that his PS production will take a larger hit

Regardless though, both guys are historically elite in the PS even if they're a definitive tier below GOAT candidates like MJ/LBJ/KAJ

Calling Harden and Steph just a tier below MJ/LBJ/Kareem as playoff performers is mighty generous. I’d have them below Wade-Kobe-Dirk who obviously don’t belong in tier 1 either.

Yeah I was being pretty broad with it, kinda like "MJ/LBJ/KAJ and then everyone else"

I do agree that after those big 3 there's more precise tiers, and I do have Dirk/Wade above Curry/Harden but I think the gap between those two tiers is smaller than the one between MJ/LBJ/KAJ and everyone else

Are you so sure that Kareem belongs above Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan/Magic etc for strictly playoff performance?
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#22 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 am

No-more-rings wrote:
BenoUdrihFTL wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Calling Harden and Steph just a tier below MJ/LBJ/Kareem as playoff performers is mighty generous. I’d have them below Wade-Kobe-Dirk who obviously don’t belong in tier 1 either.

Yeah I was being pretty broad with it, kinda like "MJ/LBJ/KAJ and then everyone else"

I do agree that after those big 3 there's more precise tiers, and I do have Dirk/Wade above Curry/Harden but I think the gap between those two tiers is smaller than the one between MJ/LBJ/KAJ and everyone else

Are you so sure that Kareem belongs above Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan/Magic etc for strictly playoff performance?

Why questioning Kareem but not James or Jordan?
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#23 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:09 am

Kareem from 1969-70 to 1979-80;
28.3 pts 14.4 reb 4.5 ast per game on .587 ts // 26.8 per, 0.172 ows/48, 5.5 obpm* in r. seasons
30.4 pts 15.7 reb 3.9 ast per game on .570 ts // 26.6 per, 0.158 ows/48, 7.5 obpm in playoffs, 94 games
(*: obpm numbers are available from '74 and onwards)

Kareem was exclusively slowed down by the goat low post defender, Nate Thurmond. If we look at how well he did against the others;
31.7 pts 15.4 reb 4.1 ast per game on .591 ts in playoffs, 78 games

Kareem was definitely in the goat scorer / the goat offensive weapon tier, along with Jordan and James. There's no debate around it.
Heck, I'd like to see any player, including Jordan and James, putting up 28/10/6 on .637 ts against a great positional competition at their 38. That's what Kareem did at his 38 in the last 5 games of '85 Finals.
Or scoring 41 ppg on .688 ts against a great defensive player like Hakeem at their 39. Because that's what Kareem did in the next r. season to Hakeem when the youngster wanted to prove himself.

Shaq is the only player who could be in tier 1 in terms of impact on offense. But his longevity isn't there to put him in there.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#24 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:16 am

Because curry is way better in the playoffs. It doesn't matter how much you fall off, it matters where you land. The real question is why KD gets a pass for his playoff inconsistency when his playoff stats were identical to harden's before joining curry.

Seriously tho, all evidence points to curry being the best or a very close second to everyone in the 15 and 17 playoffs and he was clearly the best in 19 during the stretch where kd was out. When has harden ever been top 3 in the playoffs outside of 2015?
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#25 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:25 am

Dupp wrote:Because he’s had a more stacked team around him and winning forgives everything.


Explain to me how the 19 warriors without kd were a "more stacked team" because he STILL got closer to a title than harden ever managed.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#26 » by bledredwine » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:27 am

Playoff Curry >> Playoff Harden

Harden has struggled in a series basically in every single playoffs so far. That’s, once again, due to an over-reliance on drawing fouls and trouble against better perimeter defenses guarding the three. His efficiency turns to crap and he keeps jacking shots. Curry is not that.

Just checked stats.

He shoots between 8-12+ 3’s per game (playoffs) and hits around .315 of them. Am I wrong in calling that terrible? Who in the history of the league has taken remotely close to as many threes at such a poor rate? It’s no wonder his playoff PER numbers are mediocre for a modern star.

And in recent memory? He’s shot .300 from three or lower in three of his last four seasons. That’s why he’s not Steph Curry.

It’s also why many of us don’t like watching him. I know that I don’t enjoy it and am obviously not alone. Heck, I showed my girlfriend a Clippers Rockets game (she’s athletic) and she was laughing at the shots he was taking. Reggie Miller and Ray Allen have both criticized it, classifying it as “jacking up threes” and Miller said something similar.

Bottom line- Harden is not consistent enough of a force to be compared with Lebron, Durant, Kawhi or evening Curry and (likely Giannis). If he finally steps it up... just for one full playoffs, then we can start talking about him as a dominant player.
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dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
JH 20.6 PPG

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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#27 » by Dupp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:31 am

freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:Because he’s had a more stacked team around him and winning forgives everything.


Explain to me how the 19 warriors without kd were a "more stacked team" because he STILL got closer to a title than harden ever managed.



Durant played most of the rockets series. KD and Harden were both clearly better than curry in that series too. Not like they didn’t have Kd the whole time.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#28 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:39 am

Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:Because he’s had a more stacked team around him and winning forgives everything.


Explain to me how the 19 warriors without kd were a "more stacked team" because he STILL got closer to a title than harden ever managed.



Durant played most of the rockets series. KD and Harden were both clearly better than curry in that series too. Not like they didn’t have Kd the whole time.

Clearly better at scoring you mean. KD's effiency spiked by 7 points with curry on the floor which means curry was clearly the best creator on either team. More importantly, by the time KD left the series, the series was basically tied. Yet the rockets managed to lose both game 5 and game 6. It's almost like kd's high ppg wasn't the primary driver of the dubs.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#29 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:42 am

70sFan wrote:To be honest, I don't know. People just don't like the way Harden plays.


I mean it also might just be that curry is consistently better in the playoffs :/
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#30 » by Dupp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:25 am

freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Explain to me how the 19 warriors without kd were a "more stacked team" because he STILL got closer to a title than harden ever managed.



Durant played most of the rockets series. KD and Harden were both clearly better than curry in that series too. Not like they didn’t have Kd the whole time.

Clearly better at scoring you mean. KD's effiency spiked by 7 points with curry on the floor which means curry was clearly the best creator on either team. More importantly, by the time KD left the series, the series was basically tied. Yet the rockets managed to lose both game 5 and game 6. It's almost like kd's high ppg wasn't the primary driver of the dubs.



If you think durants only impact is PPG that’s on you. Besides, scoring is the point of the game. He was clearly the best warrior that series. Yes curry is a better play maker.

And no curry wasn’t clearly a better creator than harden.

A one game series where it is an elimination game for the other team is much different to a 7 game series if you can’t see the difference that’s on you also.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#31 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:45 am

freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:To be honest, I don't know. People just don't like the way Harden plays.


I mean it also might just be that curry is consistently better in the playoffs :/

Maybe, but you overstate the difference. I already said that I believe Curry is better player, but don't act like Curry's postseason career isn't underwhelming. He consistently missed games or played below his level in 2015-19. Imagine Harden not playing full series like Curry did in 2016 or 2018, Rockets would have lost in the first round.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#32 » by Baski » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:36 am

Winning bias plus Harden has lower lows
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#33 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:09 pm

Mainly because of 2015 and 2017. Curry led a team to a title in 2015 and had a great playoffs in 2017 while getting another ring. Harden has never come close to doing that and tends to be more inconsistent than Curry while having 3-4 games where he was absolutely atrocious in big games. Harden deserves more criticism out of the two by a decent amount.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#34 » by No-more-rings » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:00 pm

freethedevil wrote:Because curry is way better in the playoffs.


Sounds like hyperbole to me.

Curry 2015-19: 27.2/5.7/5.9 23.7 PER 61.6 ts%, 7.5 BPM
Harden 2015-19: 28.6/5.7/7.3 24.3 PER 57.6 ts%, 7.8

Harden scored more, assisted more, has a higher PER and BPM and you consider Curry significantly better?

freethedevil wrote: It doesn't matter how much you fall off, it matters where you land.


Don't really know what this is supposed to mean. The only thing i can get out of it is that Curry landed with more rings/success due to better casts.

freethedevil wrote: The real question is why KD gets a pass for his playoff inconsistency when his playoff stats were identical to harden's before joining curry.


He shouldn't get a pass either.

freethedevil wrote:Seriously tho, all evidence points to curry being the best or a very close second to everyone in the 15 and 17 playoffs and he was clearly the best in 19 during the stretch where kd was out. When has harden ever been top 3 in the playoffs outside of 2015?

I just think it's way easier to look that way when you always have great and in this case an all time level supporting cast next to you. Why anyone puts a lot of weight into 2017 is beyond me, and i don't think i need to explain why.

FWIW i do think Harden has a good case for being a top 3 in the 2018 and 2019 playoffs, in 18 only Lebron was clearly better and in 19 only Kawhi was clearly better.

Harden is simply way more durable than Curry in the playoffs, and we can't let that be understated. With all that said, i do give Curry a comfortable edge when he's healthy in the playoffs, but the injuries/lack of availability at times makes it close overall.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Mainly because of 2015 and 2017. Curry led a team to a title in 2015

Harden was nearly as good as Curry was that year. And sure Curry's team beat his, but Harden had a hell of a series, and was up against a better defense with less help than Curry. If you switch them in that series, the Warriors still probably win.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#35 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:53 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:Mainly because of 2015 and 2017. Curry led a team to a title in 2015

Harden was nearly as good as Curry was that year. And sure Curry's team beat his, but Harden had a hell of a series, and was up against a better defense with less help than Curry. If you switch them in that series, the Warriors still probably win.


He was nearly as good statistically but at the end of the day Curry's team won that series 4-1 and won the title. My thing with Harden is the number of games where he was like 8-28 with 9 turnovers in a big games for a few years. He had too many of those types of games while obviously not winning nearly as much.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#36 » by freethedevil » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:12 am

Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:

Durant played most of the rockets series. KD and Harden were both clearly better than curry in that series too. Not like they didn’t have Kd the whole time.

Clearly better at scoring you mean. KD's effiency spiked by 7 points with curry on the floor which means curry was clearly the best creator on either team. More importantly, by the time KD left the series, the series was basically tied. Yet the rockets managed to lose both game 5 and game 6. It's almost like kd's high ppg wasn't the primary driver of the dubs.



If you think durants only impact is PPG that’s on you. Besides, scoring is the point of the game. .

Since when? I thought the point was winning. :/
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#37 » by Dupp » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:37 am

freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Clearly better at scoring you mean. KD's effiency spiked by 7 points with curry on the floor which means curry was clearly the best creator on either team. More importantly, by the time KD left the series, the series was basically tied. Yet the rockets managed to lose both game 5 and game 6. It's almost like kd's high ppg wasn't the primary driver of the dubs.



If you think durants only impact is PPG that’s on you. Besides, scoring is the point of the game. .

Since when? I thought the point was winning. :/


This is a dumb rebuttal even for you.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#38 » by freethedevil » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:42 am

Sounds like hyperbole to me.

Curry 2015-19: 27.2/5.7/5.9 23.7 PER 61.6 ts%, 7.5 BPM
Harden 2015-19: 28.6/5.7/7.3 24.3 PER 57.6 ts%, 7.8

scored more

so he's scored one more ppg on 4 points worse effiency? Seems like a worse scorer to me :/'

[quoqte]assisted more[/quote]
So? The point of creation is to spike effiency, not rack up assists. Curry has led the league in effiency spiking while averaging 6 assists. And its pretty obvious curry creates way more via off ball movement and screen setting. Pretty meaningless tbh. Harden's a better passer, but passing is only really a part of creation. Curry creates more, which is all that really matters here.
per and bpm

Explain to me why I should care about stats that have little correlation with winning:
https://fansided.com/2019/01/08/nylon-calculus-best-advanced-stat/

Stats that predict winning say curry was better in 15, 17, and 19. And in 16 Harden was knocked out by a cury-less warriors in one round so that really only gives us 2018 as a season he was better which I've never really disputed. Otherwise he's broken impact records in the playoffs and has led the league in the most predictive stats available twice.

I just think it's way easier to look that way when you always have great and in this case an all time level supporting cast next to you.

Wasn't true in 15 and it wasn't true in 19. And why shouldn't we put weight on 2017? We put weight on jordan winning things with a superstar making vet min money, we put weight on magic winning with kareem. This is a wierd double standard where curry's best postseason doesn't matter even tho all induvidual data says he was one of the most valuable players in history during it, during the regular seasons surrounding it, and during postseason runs when the deck wasn't as stacked. The vast majority of data points to one thing, but you insist on using a minority of data to say something else is happening here.

fwiw i think he had a good case in 18 and 19

18, sure. I think ad, lebron and kd have good arguments against him, but sure, i can buy him being better than kd at least.

19, no way. Giannis was clearly better to the point that even just on offense you could argue giannis had a better postseason. Curry beat him with a weaker team once kd went out, and even if you want to say harden was better because of the first 4 games of that series, jokic and kawhi were also clearly better. It's funny how with all the complanining about how everyone hates harden, Harden's gotten away scott free for **** the bed vs the jazz who was the only good defense he played that postseason. I don't even see a clear case for him against joel embid.
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#39 » by freethedevil » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:26 am

Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:

If you think durants only impact is PPG that’s on you. Besides, scoring is the point of the game. .

Since when? I thought the point was winning. :/


This is a dumb rebuttal even for you.

Dumber than "scoring is the point of the game"?


Why can't you just admit it was a stupid thing to say?
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Re: Why does Curry get a pass for his Playoff inconsistencies when Harden does not? 

Post#40 » by Dupp » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:36 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Dupp wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Since when? I thought the point was winning. :/


This is a dumb rebuttal even for you.

Dumber than "scoring is the point of the game"?


Why can't you just admit it was a stupid thing to say?


Scoring is the point of the game.
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