Game logs and shot data for old games

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Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jul 4, 2020 7:57 pm

So as not to derail that thread entirely, I've quoted the below from the recent thread about Dolph Schayes. The post below contains the links [EDIT: which I've enlarged to make more visible] to my shot location data sheet, as well as my game log spreadsheet (different tabs at the bottom for different games)-when a full game-log is completed I've compiled the players' full stat-line in the far right column (as complete as possible: there are frequently possessions missing from the videos [noted in red print]; I assume the FT-shooting logs from the "official" boxscores are correct [because how can you screw that up?], especially if it accounts for points missing; I'll do the same for FG's if it account for points toward the final score that are missing from the video).
The links for the YouTube video of the game is in the column on the right at the very top of each game log.

Games I've logged at this point (*indicates On/Off finished):
10/25/59 (rs game): Lakers @ Royals
10/19/61 (rs game): Packers @ Knicks
12/1/61 (rs game): Nationals @ Knicks
4/18/62 (game 7 NBA Finals, ~25% of game): Lakers @ Celtics [in process]
4/24/63 (game 6 NBA Finals): Celtics @ Lakers
4/9/67 (game 4 EDF, 2nd half): 76'ers @ Celtics
2/14/68 (rs game): Rockets @ Knicks
4/6/69 (game 1 EDF): Celtics @ Knicks
10/28/69 (rs game): Hawks @ Knicks
3/7/70 (rs game, ~75% of game): Royals @ Warriors
5/8/70 (game 7 NBA Finals): Lakers @ Knicks
4/30/71 (game 4 NBA Finals, 2nd half): Bucks @ Bullets

Additional games for which I've logged Shot Location Data only:


You'll note discrepancies [at times large ones] between the stat counts I get and the ones on the boxscores at the time. I don't know what to say other than I have the actual footage which I've gone over painstakingly, replaying some possessions over and over and over to make sure I've got it right.
In multiple spots the boxscores are just flat wrong; there's no other way to interpret it. I suspect it's primarily a function of limited number of stat-keepers who have to keep a tally of things as the action is happening (no access to instant replay), and in this era they likely didn't pay any staff to review the game footage after the fact and ensure more accurate accounting of box-stats.......so whatever these individuals recorded at the time is "official".
And I'm not sure if [potentially, anyway] there might not have be some "home-town stat-keepers" trying to fudge the numbers slightly [as long as it doesn't mess with the final score] to make opponents look worse and home-town players look better???

In that Lakers/Celtics G6, for example, I noted Jerry West did not have a good shooting night: I count him as going 13/29 from the field; the "official" box-score has him 13/24. And these weren't tricky ones open to interpretation (e.g. a partially controlled tip attempt---->do you count that as an offensive rebound and missed FGA? or is it still a loose ball and it's counted as nothing?).....these were mostly pull-up jumpers from 15-20 feet [i.e. VERY obvious FGA's] that apparently were not recorded; additionally it appears some of the defensive rebounds on these were likewise not recorded, as I found they shorted Bill Russell by three rebounds, for example.

If I've learned one thing from this exercise so far, it's to take the "official" stats from pre-merger era (and particularly 60s and earlier) with a grain of salt. HOPEFULLY at least whatever errors in recording there were, it effected all players in relatively equal fashion in the long-run.


trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Thank you very much for this post. I'm waiting for even more details, you did excellent job as always :)

I agree with your overall impression of Richie Guerin, he looks like very good player, not only for that era.

By the way, when you finish analyzing this game I can post here 2 other full games that I have from that era (1959/60 Lakers vs Royals and 1961/62 Packers vs Knicks). Just let me know if you want to see them ;)


I finished doing the play-by-play log (linked below). THERE ARE A FEW MISSED POSSESSIONS IN THE VIDEO (they are noted in the log [red print], usually with a video time-stamp).

As a result, my full accounting of box stats leave 2 pts by the Knicks unaccounted for; presumably a made FG by Cleveland Buckner (6 made FG's listed in the official boxscore, but only 5 accounted for in the video), and 4 pts by the Nats unaccounted for (presumably 2 for 2 made FT's by D.Schayes and 2 for 3 FT's by Swede Halbrook)......FT's from the official boxscore are likely accurate [one would think], as it's the easiest thing to log correctly (the action slows down, and there's basically no room for misinterpretation).

I'd mentioned I didn't see five made FG's for Hal Greer (that's what's listed in the boxscore), only four. I do, however, count FOUR made FG's for Joe Roberts (whereas the boxscore only lists THREE for him). These FG's by Roberts can be seen at the following time-stamps:
19:38
21:25
39:34
and the final goal at 43:34.

The only one I'm not sure about is the final one [did it beat the clock?]. You cannot see a ref in the shot [who may have waved it off as after the buzzer], but I tend to think this FG counted based on three observations:
1) Everyone still appears to be playing, jostling for rebounding position (indicating the clock hadn't sounded).
2) Dave Budd for the Knicks actually even takes the ball out after the make, as though to make one final inbound for NY (hardly expected behavior if the buzzer had sounded).
3) As indicated on line 492 of the log ("possessions missing"), we've already got 2 pts for Syracuse unaccounted for within these final several minutes (even with this final bucket by Roberts). If we take it away, that leaves 4 pts unaccounted for. It's highly unlikely that included in these missing late possessions is a FG by Hal Greer, given he left the game early somewhat early in the 4th quarter (see line 393 in the log) and does not appear to have been re-inserted into the line-up again.
It's also unlikely that his "missing FG" is the 2 pts unaccounted for from the first three quarters of play......because as you'll note in the log, those seem to have come by way of 1 missing point in the first half, and 1 missing point in the 3rd quarter.

So if Greer's missing FG didn't come in the first three quarters (because there's no place for a 2-pt chunk in the missing scores), and didn't come late in the game (because he was out of the line-up).......I'm led to believe the "official boxscore" has mistakenly credited one of Joe Roberts' FG's to Hal Greer.

NBA basketball was a much smaller operation at this stage in history, with fewer stat-keepers, no video replay, and fewer checks and balances. It's not hard to imagine the [likely white] local stat-keeper crediting the wrong black man in a Nationals jersey [similar numbers on jerseys, too: #12 for Roberts, #15 for Greer] with the bucket.

Anyway, that's what I believe happened. I'm copying these arguments right into the game log, so I won't forget.
I'll include the shot location data too.....

EDIT: btw, couple additional things [that don't effect that score] that are unaccounted for in the video:
0/1 FT's by Dave Budd, 0/2 FT's by Johnny Green.
Oh, and yes I'd love to see the other full games you have. I'll attempt to create game and shot-data logs for them as well.

Play-by-play log
Shot location data



I will be moving on to log this Knicks/Packers rs game from '62:


Thanks again, 70sFan, for providing some of these videos.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Sat Jul 4, 2020 8:04 pm

Can't wait to see your notes on this game. Are you interested in late 1960s or early 1970s games as well?
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#3 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Jul 4, 2020 8:22 pm

This is awesome trex! Great work.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#4 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jul 4, 2020 9:55 pm

70sFan wrote:Can't wait to see your notes on this game. Are you interested in late 1960s or early 1970s games as well?


Absolutely. I'm interested in all games for which they did not record the "full" box statline (i.e. pts, fg's, ft's, orebs, drebs, ast, stl, blk, tov)......so basically anything pre-'78; though perhaps especially from pre-'74, where the boxscore was especially incomplete (and where potentially the "official" boxscores are a bit sketchy, as alluded to above).

Though I also want to go over some games from '78-'96, not to do the full game-log and stat-keeping, but just to log some shot-location data.

I'll take any games you're interested in; just give me time to get them done. Doing the FULL play-by-play log, FULL boxscore, and shot-location data for a single game takes......basically all day; it's about 6 hours of work. I must try not to tick off my wife too much by spending all my spare time at this. :wink:
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#5 » by 70sFan » Sat Jul 4, 2020 10:00 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Can't wait to see your notes on this game. Are you interested in late 1960s or early 1970s games as well?


Absolutely. I'm interested in all games for which they did not record the "full" box statline (i.e. pts, fg's, ft's, orebs, drebs, ast, stl, blk, tov)......so basically anything pre-'78; though perhaps especially from pre-'74, where the boxscore was especially incomplete (and where potentially the "official" boxscores are a bit sketchy, as alluded to above).

Though I also want to go over some games from '78-'96, not to do the full game-log and stat-keeping, but just to log some shot-location data.

I'll take any games you're interested in; just give me time to get them done. Doing the FULL play-by-play log, FULL boxscore, and shot-location data for a single game takes......basically all day; it's about 6 hours of work. I must try not to tick off my wife too much by spending all my spare time at this. :wink:

Of course, I will post next one in this thread after you finish the game. I know how time consuming watching and analyzing old games are ;)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#6 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jul 6, 2020 6:34 pm

70sFan wrote:.


I've completed the play-by-play log for the game below, tabulated the "complete" boxscore and the shot-location data (on same spreadsheets linked in OP).

Few notes about how I record the game logs, stats, and "complete" boxscores......

On difficulties with logging some plays and making the boxscore "complete"
Completeness - The videos of these games you've provided are not 100% complete. There are a handful of possessions missing from each. This is not a criticism toward you, btw; there's nothing you can do about that, and I'm very appreciative to have the opportunity to look at these games. Just stating a plain fact: a few possessions are not accounted for. I usually note such things in red print within the log, and have notes at the end.

FT's - On 2-shot [shooting] fouls, the first FTA is usually not shown on these clips; so I'm left to guess at whether or not the first FT was made or missed based on the boxscore [as I mentioned previously, if there's one thing they can't possible ***k up too badly on the "official boxscore", it's the FT's] and also by what the score is when they actually DO next show the scoreboard (which they only do ~5 times TOTAL in the video [usually at the end of each quarter, and maybe ONE other time in the course of the game]).

Other things that are difficult to interpret - Certain calls by the refs, of the sort that result in a dead-ball change of possession can be difficult. There is no audio, and often times the call is made by the ref who is not visible on the screen, and/or the video cuts to the next possession before the ref visibly signals the call. So I sometimes have to sleuth out what the call was based on looking at the entire play [what EVERYONE is doing] multiple times, and well, just do my best to interpret what was called.


Additional consideration [FYI] about how I'm logging plays
Assists - I'm crediting assists with probably a somewhat modern(ish) interpretation. Some of the old guys say it was so hard to get credit for an assist in that era. So far [comparing what I log with what I see in "official" boxscores], that assertion seems hit or miss. Sometimes I find I'm crediting guys with more assists; other times I find I'm crediting less or same. I'm going with MY interpretation of what an assist is.
btw, you'll also note I'll credit FT assists [pass leads directly to FT attempts instead of made FG], as well as "secondary assists". This latter one I'm pretty stingy about. It has to be something like a good outlet pass, igniting a fast-break, and the receiver of the ball fairly immediately makes the assist pass to another teammate.....in that instance I might credit the outlet pass as a secondary assist. Or if it appears the first passer recognizes the play, but also immediately realizes he doesn't have the passing angle to make the play, so he gets it to the guy that DOES [who then immediately makes the assist]. Something like that.

Offensive rebounds - I'm probably fairly generous in crediting an offensive rebound (and FGA) on tips. If it looks like an even somewhat directionally-controlled tip, or even if it just seems like a haphazard poke BUT the ball actually does get up on to the rim, I will record that as an offensive rebound and [usually missed] FGA. I mean, if one of those haphazard pokes happened to knock the ball into the basket, we'd credit that guy with an offensive rebound and made FG......so [to me, at least] it stands to reason I should count it as an offensive rebound and FGA if it DOESN'T go in the basket [as long as it got up on the rim], even if it didn't look fully controlled.

Rebounds off of blocks - I honestly wasn't sure if a blocked shot can still be rebounded (recorded as a rebound, I mean). But I looked at some play-by-play logs from modern games [and coordinated the tallies with the boxscore], and that is indeed how they record things: a blocked shot is followed by either an offensive or defensive rebound. When I list a block as "recovered" in my boxscore [right column near the top of log], I mean recovered by the defense, btw.

Shot distance for location data - This is a little hard to interpret at times because sometimes they're zoomed in so far I can't see exactly where a player's feet are on some outside shots, and/or because there's no 3pt-line to use as a landmark. I do my best to gauge the distance (even refreshed my memory on how to calculate the distance of the hypotenuse of a right triangle, something I'm using frequently to estimate the distance on shots from the elbow/sides of court).
Where they're shooting on the move, I guess I'm sort of picking a [roughly] halfway point between where his feet leave the ground and where they are when the ball leaves his hand.


I'll post later with some general impressions of the game if I have time....
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#7 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 6, 2020 6:43 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:.


I've completed the play-by-play log for the game below, tabulated the "complete" boxscore and the shot-location data (on same spreadsheets linked in OP).

Few notes about how I record the game logs, stats, and "complete" boxscores......

On difficulties with logging some plays and making the boxscore "complete"
Completeness - The videos of these games you've provided are not 100% complete. There are a handful of possessions missing from each. This is not a criticism toward you, btw; there's nothing you can do about that, and I'm very appreciative to have the opportunity to look at these games. Just stating a plain fact: a few possessions are not accounted for. I usually note such things in red print within the log, and have notes at the end.

FT's - On 2-shot [shooting] fouls, the first FTA is usually not shown on these clips; so I'm left to guess at whether or not the first FT was made or missed based on the boxscore [as I mentioned previously, if there's one thing they can't possible ***k up too badly on the "official boxscore", it's the FT's] and also by what the score is when they actually DO next show the scoreboard (which they only do ~5 times TOTAL in the video [usually at the end of each quarter, and maybe ONE other time in the course of the game]).

Other things that are difficult to interpret - Certain calls by the refs, of the sort that result in a dead-ball change of possession can be difficult. There is no audio, and often times the call is made by the ref who is not visible on the screen, and/or the video cuts to the next possession before the ref visibly signals the call. So I sometimes have to sleuth out what the call was based on looking at the entire play [what EVERYONE is doing] multiple times, and well, just do my best to interpret what was called.


Additional consideration [FYI] about how I'm logging plays
Assists - I'm crediting assists with probably a somewhat modern(ish) interpretation. Some of the old guys say it was so hard to get credit for an assist in that era. So far [comparing what I log with what I see in "official" boxscores], that assertion seems hit or miss. Sometimes I find I'm crediting guys with more assists; other times I find I'm crediting less or same. I'm going with MY interpretation of what an assist is.
btw, you'll also note I'll credit FT assists [pass leads directly to FT attempts instead of made FG], as well as "secondary assists". This latter one I'm pretty stingy about. It has to be something like a good outlet pass, igniting a fast-break, and the receiver of the ball fairly immediately makes the assist pass to another teammate.....in that instance I might credit the outlet pass as a secondary assist. Or if it appears the first passer recognizes the play, but also immediately realizes he doesn't have the passing angle to make the play, so he gets it to the guy that DOES [who then immediately makes the assist]. Something like that.

Offensive rebounds - I'm probably fairly generous in crediting an offensive rebound (and FGA) on tips. If it looks like an even somewhat directionally-controlled tip, or even if it just seems like a haphazard poke BUT the ball actually does get up on to the rim, I will record that as an offensive rebound and [usually missed] FGA. I mean, if one of those haphazard pokes happened to knock the ball into the basket, we'd credit that guy with an offensive rebound and made FG......so [to me, at least] it stands to reason I should count it as an offensive rebound and FGA if it DOESN'T go in the basket [as long as it got up on the rim], even if it didn't look fully controlled.

Rebounds off of blocks - I honestly wasn't sure if a blocked shot can still be rebounded (recorded as a rebound, I mean). But I looked at some play-by-play logs from modern games [and coordinated the tallies with the boxscore], and that is indeed how they record things: a blocked shot is followed by either an offensive or defensive rebound. When I list a block as "recovered" in my boxscore [right column near the top of log], I mean recovered by the defense, btw.

Shot distance for location data - This is a little hard to interpret at times because sometimes they're zoomed in so far I can't see exactly where a player's feet are on some outside shots, and/or because there's no 3pt-line to use as a landmark. I do my best to gauge the distance (even refreshed my memory on how to calculate the distance of the hypotenuse of a right triangle, something I'm using frequently to estimate the distance on shots from the elbow/sides of court).
Where they're shooting on the move, I guess I'm sort of picking a [roughly] halfway point between where his feet leave the ground and where they are when the ball leaves his hand.


I'll post later with some general impressions of the game if I have time....


I know, these tapes aren't perfect and I am aware that some possessions are not captured, but they are by far the best collection of early 1960s NBA we have. I am afraid that none of my videos are 100% complete, we have to live with what we have.

Sometimes I'm also strugging to realize what call refs called, but with watching reactions like you did and some experience of 1960s officiating (MUCH different than now) you can quite well estimate what was done on the court.

Would you like me to share next game now?
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jul 6, 2020 7:00 pm

Thanks for doing this. I was interested in seeing Bellamy when he was putting up those big numbers. When I watched the game as a fan, I was unimpressed, he seemed to be just another guy out there though a decent rebounder. Your numbers showed me a bit more, more offensive rebounds than I had noticed, certainly more scoring, tremendous from foul line, ridiculously bad assists/turnovers.

Walt Bellamy 18 rebounds (roughly half on the offensive boards), 1 assist, 8 turnovers, 8/16 from the field, 12/15 from the line for 28 points.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 6, 2020 8:02 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Thanks for doing this. I was interested in seeing Bellamy when he was putting up those big numbers. When I watched the game as a fan, I was unimpressed, he seemed to be just another guy out there though a decent rebounder. Your numbers showed me a bit more, more offensive rebounds than I had noticed, certainly more scoring, tremendous from foul line, ridiculously bad assists/turnovers.

Walt Bellamy 18 rebounds (roughly half on the offensive boards), 1 assist, 8 turnovers, 8/16 from the field, 12/15 from the line for 28 points.


It's important to note that it was his debut, so very high number of turnovers is expected.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jul 6, 2020 8:55 pm

70sFan wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Thanks for doing this. I was interested in seeing Bellamy when he was putting up those big numbers. When I watched the game as a fan, I was unimpressed, he seemed to be just another guy out there though a decent rebounder. Your numbers showed me a bit more, more offensive rebounds than I had noticed, certainly more scoring, tremendous from foul line, ridiculously bad assists/turnovers.

Walt Bellamy 18 rebounds (roughly half on the offensive boards), 1 assist, 8 turnovers, 8/16 from the field, 12/15 from the line for 28 points.


It's important to note that it was his debut, so very high number of turnovers is expected.


31 pts (15/18 FT's), actually.
Though he also had 10 turnovers. The weird thing was is that at least half of them (I didn't count exactly) were 3-second violations. He just kept camping out, kept getting called; I could go back and count, but seriously it was like 5 such calls. Then there were 2-3 travelling violations, at least one by way of bad pass.....

Slick Leonard is also forcing way more action than he's capable of.....he had 10 turnovers as well. Those two guys alone committed as many turnovers as the entire Knick team.

This appears to be one of the main problems for this terrible Packer team [at least in this game]: terrible turnover economy, and also couldn't keep the Knicks off the offensive glass (note the Knicks had as many offensive rebounds as defensive [although as I noted previously I'm slightly generous in awarding offensive boards]).
They also don't look like they have much by way of good shooters from the outside.

I must admit that prior to logging this game, I hadn't even heard of most of the Packer roster: Bellamy, obviously, and Slick Leonard I'd heard of. Charlie Tyra was also vaguely familiar, though I cannot think of from where. I had literally NEVER heard of anyone else on this roster.......probably because most of them were at best career [small-minute] role players; and at worst scrubs who washed out of the league in a hurry. In addition to Bellamy and Leonard, they had.....

Vern Hatton - he actually started in this game. Played just 3,666 TOTAL career minutes in four seasons (8.2 PER, .003 WS/48), before washing out of the league after this '62 season (at age 26).

Barney Cable - he too starts, and actually plays the vast majority of this game [almost as much as Bellamy]. 6,817 total career minutes in six seasons ('59-'64), before retiring at age 28. Career 10.6 PER, .046 WS/48.

Horace Walker - the 5th starter. '62 is actually his one and ONLY NBA season; he played 65 games (20.5 mpg) for them; 10.2 PER, .010 WS/48.

Ralph Davis - is sort of the 6th man for the Packers in this game, and averages 25.9 mpg for them this season. This was his 2nd and final season, however; played 3,202 total career minutes (9.3 PER, .006 WS/48).

Andy Johnson - is sort of the 7th man (actually I think both he and Davis may have played more minutes than Vern Hatton [who started]). '62 was his 4th and final season, he retired after at age 29. 6,772 total career minutes, 11.0 PER, .056 WS/48.

York Larese - kinda the 8th man in the rotation. '62 was his one and only NBA season, too; he played 59 games (11.9 mpg) in his one season, apparently washing out at age 23. Was a 9.2 PER, .020 WS/48 in his 11.9 mpg.

Then it's just a few more scrubs and pseudo-scrubs: Jack Turner, Charlie Tyra, Archie Dees, and Howard Carl filling in mostly just the garbage time.......'62 was the final NBA season for ALL of them (all of them age 26 or younger); H.Carl after playing just 382 minutes in 31 games. Tyra is the only one of them who actually survived for a few seasons in the NBA.

Just a terrible team.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 6, 2020 9:01 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Thanks for doing this. I was interested in seeing Bellamy when he was putting up those big numbers. When I watched the game as a fan, I was unimpressed, he seemed to be just another guy out there though a decent rebounder. Your numbers showed me a bit more, more offensive rebounds than I had noticed, certainly more scoring, tremendous from foul line, ridiculously bad assists/turnovers.

Walt Bellamy 18 rebounds (roughly half on the offensive boards), 1 assist, 8 turnovers, 8/16 from the field, 12/15 from the line for 28 points.


It's important to note that it was his debut, so very high number of turnovers is expected.


31 pts (15/18 FT's), actually.
Though he also had 10 turnovers. The weird thing was is that at least half of them (I didn't count exactly) were 3-second violations. He just kept camping out, kept getting called; I could go back and count, but seriously it was like 5 such calls. Then there were 2-3 travelling violations, at least one by way of bad pass.....

Slick Leonard is also forcing way more action than he's capable of.....he had 10 turnovers as well. Those two guys alone committed as many turnovers as the entire Knick team.

This appears to be one of the main problems for this terrible Packer team [at least in this game]: terrible turnover economy, and also couldn't keep the Knicks off the offensive glass (note the Knicks had as many offensive rebounds as defensive [although as I noted previously I'm slightly generous in awarding offensive boards]).
They also don't look like they have much by way of good shooters from the outside.

I must admit that prior to logging this game, I hadn't even heard of most of the Packer roster: Bellamy, obviously, and Slick Leonard I'd heard of. Charlie Tyra was also vaguely familiar, though I cannot think of from where. I had literally NEVER heard of anyone else on this roster.......probably because most of them were at best career [small-minute] role players; and at worst scrubs who washed out of the league in a hurry. In addition to Bellamy and Leonard, they had.....

Vern Hatton - he actually started in this game. Played just 3,666 TOTAL career minutes in four seasons (8.2 PER, .003 WS/48), before washing out of the league after this '62 season (at age 26).

Barney Cable - he too starts, and actually plays the vast majority of this game [almost as much as Bellamy]. 6,817 total career minutes in six seasons ('59-'64), before retiring at age 28. Career 10.6 PER, .046 WS/48.

Horace Walker - the 5th starter. '62 is actually his one and ONLY NBA season; he played 65 games (20.5 mpg) for them; 10.2 PER, .010 WS/48.

Ralph Davis - is sort of the 6th man for the Packers in this game, and averages 25.9 mpg for them this season. This was his 2nd and final season, however; played 3,202 total career minutes (9.3 PER, .006 WS/48).

Andy Johnson - is sort of the 7th man (actually I think both he and Davis may have played more minutes than Vern Hatton [who started]. '62 was his 4th and final season, he retired after at age 29. 6,772 total career minutes, 11.0 PER, .056 WS/48.

York Larese - kinda the 8th man in the rotation. '62 was his one and only NBA season, too; he played 59 games (11.9 mpg) in his one season, apparently washing out at age 23. Was a 9.2 PER, .020 WS/48 in his 11.9 mpg.

Then it's just a few more scrubs and pseudo-scrubs: Jack Turner, Charlie Tyra, Archie Dees, and Howard Carl filling in mostly just the garbage time.......'62 was the final NBA season for ALL of them (all of them age 26 or younger); H.Carl after playing just 382 minutes in 31 games. Tyra is the only one of them who actually survived for a few seasons in the NBA.

Just a terrible team.


Yeah, this Knicks team wasn't that great but when you look at this game it's clear how much more talented they were. I also have 1960 Royals game (which I'll upload next) and they also look much more talented than Packers. This team had no talent outside of Bellamy (who was a rookie) and Leonard (who wasn't anything special either).
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jul 6, 2020 10:09 pm

General impressions on the Packer/Knick game (and extrapolations on the Nationals/Knicks game previously logged)....

Walt Bellamy - Granted, this game is his NBA debut, but man was he turnover-prone in this one. As noted previously, though, MOST of his turnover were 3-second violations; one would think he'd quickly figure that out and not commit so many in that fashion.
Defensively, he was mostly how I remember from later games I'd seen (in either Detroit or NY, I forget): inconsistent. He'll make one really nice play, and follow it up with a "where the hell was the effort there?" play.
He's big, he's athletic, has nice touch around the basket, and shoots his FT's somewhat respectably for big (REALLY good in this game, though was just 64.4% for the season). That's what he appears to have going for him at this stage.

Slick Leonard - Not the greatest handle (turns it over by losing the dribble to an on-ball steal multiple times), not that good a finisher around the rim; forces too much action (at least in this game). Like Bellamy, he commits a pretty unforgivable number of turnovers in this one.

There's not much to say about most of the rest of the roster......they're just not that good.
Vern Hatton looks OK defensively, but has no handle, not a play-maker, and clearly is uncomfortable shooting outside of maybe 15-16 feet (which, for a guard, is sort of a problem, even pre-shotclock).
Barney Cable, although not terrible, looks simply entirely unremarkable; not a guy you relish starting (and apparently playing 35-40 minutes).
Andy Johnson looks like a little bit of a scrappy athlete, though only 6'3" he's a much undersized SF, and really limited in terms of skill-set.
The rest are just pretty meh; Jack Turner looked terrible.

The hot(ish) shooting of Willie Naulls, Dave Budd, and Richie Guerin from the KNicks/Nationals game I'd logged is sort of leveled out in this one (all of them have a kinda cool night). On the flip-side, Johnny Green (who was sort of cold in the Nationals game), has a hot shooting night here.

Johnny Green - I’d mentioned earlier that he looks like a superb athlete, though a pinch raw in terms of his skill-set (which is understandable given how late in life he started playing basketball). Although he did step up and make a couple of outside shots in the Packers game (and looked sort of comfortable doing so), his shooting data from these two games sort of supports that in that it strongly suggests [at least at this stage of his career] he was much more of a finisher: 62.9% of his attempts have come from <3’, while less than 26% (9 of 35) came from outside of 10’. He made just 3 of 9 on those shots outside of 10’ (just 3 of 13 from outside 3’); but he’s finished a fantastic 68.2% on his shots near the rim.

And while I know it’s just a 2-game sample, I’m pretty comfortable identifying some player tendencies.
For example, Phil Jordon is clearly NOT a back-to-the basket pound it down low type of big (one can probably assume that based on his size alone: a lanky 205 lbs on a 6’10” frame). He’s clearly a step out mid-range catch-and-shoot big: in these two games 16 of 22 total attempts came from OUTSIDE 10’ (3 from outside 16’); and 80% of his made FG’s were assisted. Catch-and-shoot in the mid-range is clearly his bread and butter.
And while I know he won’t always shoot as hot as he did in these two games, it’s clear [imo] that Red Kerr was not justified (or smart) to sag way off him and basically just give him open looks from 11-17 feet, when that’s apparently the only place the guy is a threat.
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SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 6, 2020 10:18 pm

Alright, it seems that data is finished for this game. Now I am sharing Lakers vs Royals game from the beginnig of 1959/60 season:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195910250CIN.html

https://youtu.be/JQJZLYXkEpo
https://youtu.be/mq9pdGbiZCI
https://youtu.be/HXaM2T01AZ4
https://youtu.be/kuLxU4a_FxY

I won't give any details, but Slick Leonard played also in this game (which gives us 2 "full" games of him). If I remember correctly, the last few possessions are not on this tape unfortunately.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jul 6, 2020 11:16 pm

70sFan wrote:Alright, it seems that data is finished for this game. Now I am sharing Lakers vs Royals game from the beginnig of 1959/60 season:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195910250CIN.html

https://youtu.be/JQJZLYXkEpo
https://youtu.be/mq9pdGbiZCI
https://youtu.be/HXaM2T01AZ4
https://youtu.be/kuLxU4a_FxY

I won't give any details, but Slick Leonard played also in this game (which gives us 2 "full" games of him). If I remember correctly, the last few possessions are not on this tape unfortunately.


I'll keep this one on stand-by and try to work with it. On initial glance I may have difficulty with this one: the video quality is just so poor (can't make out jersey numbers half the time), and the cinematography is SO zoomed in, it's difficult to perceive the action. It does have the benefit of audio (although that too is sort of garbled and distorted). I will work with it as best I can, though.

In the meantime, do you have anything else from similar era (early-mid 60's) that's of better video quality?
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#15 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 6, 2020 11:26 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Alright, it seems that data is finished for this game. Now I am sharing Lakers vs Royals game from the beginnig of 1959/60 season:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195910250CIN.html

https://youtu.be/JQJZLYXkEpo
https://youtu.be/mq9pdGbiZCI
https://youtu.be/HXaM2T01AZ4
https://youtu.be/kuLxU4a_FxY

I won't give any details, but Slick Leonard played also in this game (which gives us 2 "full" games of him). If I remember correctly, the last few possessions are not on this tape unfortunately.


I'll keep this one on stand-by and try to work with it. On initial glance I may have difficulty with this one: the video quality is just so poor (can't make out jersey numbers half the time), and the cinematography is SO zoomed in, it's difficult to perceive the action. It does have the benefit of audio (although that too is sort of garbled and distorted). I will work with it as best I can, though.

In the meantime, do you have anything else from similar era (early-mid 60's) that's of better video quality?


I'm afraid that the next oldest "full" game I have is from 1967/68 season.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#16 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 7, 2020 2:27 am

General thoughts on game 6 of the 1963 NBA finals.....

That was the other game I'd recently completed the PbP log, boxscore, and shot location data for.

Note this was Bob Cousy's final game as a Celtic......and what a way to go out!

Cousy twists his ankle or something very very early in the 4th quarter, and is almost carried off the court and into the locker-room. It's known he plans to retire, so it was a pretty special moment: the Los Angeles crowd actually gives him a standing ovation as he's carried off.
He wasn't done, though; he actually returns with a taped ankle later in the 4th quarter. You can see he's not quite right (doesn't have the same bounce in his step); he missed every shot he took after his return (2-3 attempts), but still finished with a fantastic final game:
18 pts (8/16 FG's, 2/2 FT's), 3 reb (1 off, 2 def), 7 ast [+1 secondary ast], 2 stl, 1 tov, 4 pf (and of course: one final ring)

Happy moment for me, as Cousy's one of my favorite players from that era.
Perhaps needed, too, as Sam Jones has a just godawful game:
5 pts (2/9 FG's, 1/3 FT's), 4 reb (3 off, 1 def), 3 tov, 3 pf

Bill Russell, while not a good scoring game (or offensive game in general), still has a monster presence here:
12 pts (5/11 FG's, 2/5 FT's), 27 reb (5 off, 22 def), 7 ast (NOTE: here's another instance where the "it was tough to get an assist" narrative falls flat, as iirc the official box credits him with 9 ast), 7 blk (5 recovered by Celtics, +1 "great contest" [another side-stat I track, though don't hand out all that often]), 4 tov, 3 pf

Heinsohn, Sanders, Havlicek, and K.C.Jones all have decent games, too.


For the Lakers, Jerry West has a tiny bit of a stinker (or at least I'm sure he was disappointed in himself, particularly in a 3-pt loss).....
Game-high 32 pts, but just 13/29 FG's and 6/10 FT's, 7 reb (4 off, 3 def), 6 ast, 1 blk, 4 tov

Baylor is cold for much of the game, but really comes on late and sort of fuels the Lakers' late-game surge:
28 pts (11/22 FG's, 6/6 FT's), 9 reb (1 off, 8 def), 5 ast [+1 FT ast], 1 stl, 1 blk, 0 tov, 3 pf
Really a terrific game for Elgin.

Rudy LaRusso has a nice game too. Only 4 rebounds, but an efficient 19 pts and some good defense. This game sort of highlighted something that is [maybe??] a consistent trend for LaRusso: he's a smart defensive player. He's not much of a rim protector, and really a kinda mediocre rebounding PF......yet he got All-Defensive 2nd team the first year it was offered. One has to ask how.

One of the "extra" stats I'm recording in my logs is Offensive Fouls Drawn. Rudy drew FIVE offensive fouls in this game!
I know it's just one game, but I suspect you can't get that many if you're not doing something right by way of positioning and footwork (*and maybe selling it a little).

*When the topic of "flop-artists" comes up, it's mostly modern players mentioned. Some of the older heads may then bring up someone like Jerry Sloan, who certainly did his share. But he definitely wasn't the first. It's been impressed upon me in watching these three games closely that it was nothing new even in Sloan's day; I've observed several "flops" in these games.

Anyway, the rest of the Laker cast played sort of mediocre to poor.

EDIT: the other interesting thing about the Laker statline is the relatively low assist total (just 14 [+1 FT ast]). That's the lowest total for any team in the three games I've logged (even the Packers had 16 ast [+7 FT ast]; and the Knicks have had 30 ast [+4-5 FT ast] each game). It's perhaps indicative of the iso-heavy style of both Jerry West and especially Elgin Baylor (who obviously comprise a HUGE chunk of the Laker offense).
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 7, 2020 2:34 am

70sFan wrote:I'm afraid that the next oldest "full" game I have is from 1967/68 season.


Go ahead and post the link(s), if you don't mind. I'll still try to work with the older one, I just suspect it's going to be more arduous and fatiguing. Whereas these other games were already taking me probably 6+ hours to create a full PbP, boxscore, and shot location data, I suspect that one might take more like 10 hours (just because of the difficulty the video quality will present).

As such, I anticipate I'll get fatigued or discouraged trying to work it straight thru; it might be nice to take a break and work on a game with more accessible footage.

EDIT: on second glance, the footage isn't as bad as I'd previously thought, and the commentary helps A LOT (with head-phones on the audio is actually decent, and he follows the action well [it's I think perhaps a made-for-radio broadcast]). Few of the jersey numbers need sorting (e.g. Embry is wearing #34 [though bbref lists his number that year as #32], and there's someone for the Lakers wearing #12 [even though bbref doesn't list ANYONE on their roster as having that number]; I'll figure that one out--->EDIT2: it's Boo Ellis [bbref has him listed as #30]).
Still, you can go ahead and post link to the game from '68; that way I don't have to wait for the next if I get thru this one.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Tue Jul 7, 2020 7:45 am

Here it is:

https://youtu.be/pCguAc0N2HE

It's a game between New York Knicks and new franchise San Diego Rockets.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#19 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jul 8, 2020 6:00 pm

70sFan wrote:Alright, it seems that data is finished for this game. Now I am sharing Lakers vs Royals game from the beginnig of 1959/60 season:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195910250CIN.html

https://youtu.be/JQJZLYXkEpo
https://youtu.be/mq9pdGbiZCI
https://youtu.be/HXaM2T01AZ4
https://youtu.be/kuLxU4a_FxY

I won't give any details, but Slick Leonard played also in this game (which gives us 2 "full" games of him). If I remember correctly, the last few possessions are not on this tape unfortunately.


This game is now fully logged, boxscore completed in right column.

There is 1 pt by the Lakers unaccounted for in the video (it appears to take place somewhere late in the 3rd Q), is noted in red in the log. Also 0/1 FT's [according to the official boxscore] by S.Leonard unaccounted for (well.....technically 0/2 FT's unaccounted for, as the last video segment ends right after he makes the first of two FTA, bringing the score to 102-103......since that was the final score, it's easy to assume he missed that 2nd FT; but there's one other miss unaccounted for).

That's assuming the FT tally on the official boxscore is accurate---which I've said repeatedly that should be the one thing they get right on the box at the time........however, it's clear that even that gets botched sometimes:
You'll note Dick Garmaker is listed as going 3/3 from the FT line in the boxscore; however, he's clearly seen missing the front-end of a pair of FT's late in the 3rd Q (line 327 in the log, and there's a video time-stamp near that play if you wish to view for yourself). The commentator even comments about how it's relatively rare for Garmaker to miss a FT. So.....:dontknow:

Anyway, there are some other discrepancies pertaining to personal foul totals (I comment about it at the end of the log), but nothing that effects the score. This actually appears to be the most complete [fewest missing possessions and/or missing action] video coverage of any of the games I've logged so far.


Some thoughts on the game......

Jack Twyman - Limited highlight footage I'd seen of him previously left me with the impression he was mostly a set-shooter......not at all the case. Very much a jump-shooter, and he actually has a pretty lightning-quick release. He's also got a very quick first step, and pretty good open-court speed.
His range extends out to pretty close to 3pt range, although he only sporadically actually does shoot from near there (I didn't record any of his 34 attempts as actually being from 24+ [or 23.75+] feet); he almost exclusively stays within about 21', with the majority of his attempts the 14-21' range.
The guy could shoot, no question. Could see him having a Klay Thompson-like career in the modern league (same size, tendency toward outside shooting, quick release, etc).

Slick Leonard - I may have been a little too quick to disparage Leonard based on that Packer game. His handle looked weak in that game, and he made so many bad passes (again: TEN turnovers in the Packer/Knick game). It's a complete 180 in this game: ZERO turnovers (despite taking a team-high 26 FGA).
Based on these two games he seems more of a score-first PG/combo guard, as opposed to a playmaker (though his career numbers don't necessarily reflect that completely).
He's a bit off from the outside in this game (on the shot-location charts, it's brought his % from the outside down considerably); although based on his career shooting percentages, it's perhaps not off for him (he's a career 34.9% FG%).
He's finishing stronger at the rim than I'd expected based on how he looks.

His range goes out to legit 3pt territory: between these two games I've got him taking 8 attempts from 3pt range (and making 3 of them), and one I labelled as 25' (he was at least a foot behind where the 3pt line would have been). fwiw, one of those makes was a 50-foot heave at the end of a quarter in the Packers game; so he's 2/7 from "trey" otherwise. Numerous other shots in the 22-23' range, though (and so far is 6/18 from 16-23', between both games......so 9/26 total from >16').

While his set-shot is that almost two-handed push from the chest that is typical in this era, and his jump-shot looks essentially "modern", his FT is a total one-hander: he takes the guide-hand off entirely. Probably hurts his accuracy there; is a career 74.5% FT shooter, though just 10/18 in the videos provided.

Elgin Baylor - Terrific athlete. Really nice touch from outside, and a super-strong finisher if he can get in close. Where he's REALLY struggled in the two games I've logged is the in-between, specifically the 10-16' range. At the rim, he's fantastic. From the outside he's been really good. Even from 3-10' he's been excellent [on very limited sample], as many of these are sort of runners, fluid running jump hooks or push-shots, etc.
From 10-16', though, it's usually a pull-up, and he's shown a habit of not going up fluidly off the dribble, but too often after picking up his dribble and pausing--->allowing the defender to really chest up on him. He'll try to shake him a little with maybe a head/shoulder fake, or nudge a little to get an inch or two of space, and then try to pull-up from a dead-stop. Kobe Bryant-like shots (just really really hard, and probably not the best shot selection).

And so far it's showing in the numbers: he's 0/10 in the 10-16' range.
He's hitting frankly AMAZING [even by modern standards] everywhere else on the court. And the other thing of note in his shot chart data is that this is almost all in isolation: so far only 20% of his FG's were assisted.

And I'll once more give a shout out to his passing. Really an underrated playmaker, imo. Leads his team in assists [by more than double anyone else] in this Royals game, fwiw; and a couple of pretty nice dimes included in that, too.

Win Wilfong - I don't think I'd even heard of this guy prior to this game. He looks like a pretty solid passer/playmaker based on this one-game sample, though interestingly his career numbers don't reflect that AT ALL.......and on the flip-side a terrible shooter. Sort of scrappy defender [at times, at least] and on the boards for his size.
Looks like he had four mostly semi-respectable role player seasons in the NBA, washing out after '61 at age 27. I'm guessing he's one of the many that just couldn't keep up with how quickly the game was evolving and becoming more competitive.

Larry Foust - This is actually the first I've got to see of Foust. At this point he's 31 years old, and the commentator mentioned that he's struggled with back problems going back into his late 20's (something I wasn't aware of). He would still remain an good/effective role player in the league thru '62 (age 33). To me, this is suggestive of an adaptable (era-portable) game.

Although he never had high assist totals, he shows moments/flares in this game of being a good passing big.
He seems to screen out his man well when posting up--->there are TWO instances where he draws a foul when his man tries to get around to snipe the entry pass, but just cannot do so without committing the foul.
Looks like he's got decent touch out to 12-14' at least. And he made his FT's well for a big.
bbref lists him as 6'9" and 215 lbs (though he looks heavier in this video; suspect he may have been closer to 225-230 by this stage of his career). So he's legit PF sized (or even a slightly undersized C--->bigger than Al Horford or Montrezl Harrell, for example).

Dick Garmaker - Seems to shoot pretty accurately for the time-period, though without much range (looks to get inside more: accuracy by way of closer shot-selection), and definitely has a bit of a "knack" for rebounding out of the back-court.
He makes a few nice passes in this one......and also a lot of bad ones. He's responsible for 7 turnovers in this ball-game, and although he started it's interesting to note the Laker coach opted to bench him in 4th Q crunch-time in favour of Hot Rod Hundley.

Spoiler for anyone who hasn't watched the game (it's a pretty good one, and goes down to the wire):
Spoiler:
Hundley commits a crucial turnover on an inbound play.


Dave Piontek - Had never heard of him previously. REALLY nice defensive forward who gave Elgin Baylor all kinds of trouble (commentator mentioned he'd done a really great job on rookie Baylor the year before too). Baylor scored either 16 or 17 of his 30 pts in the 4th quarter, when the Cincinnati coach [for some reason] opted to go with Jim Palmer, and kept Piontek on the bench.
And Baylor just went off on Palmer; it pretty much made their late-game comeback possible.


Anyway, I'll leave it there (no need for me to comment on EVERY player). Thanks again for providing the footage.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Wed Jul 8, 2020 9:15 pm

trex_8063 wrote:This game is now fully logged, boxscore completed in right column.

Great job again!

That's assuming the FT tally on the official boxscore is accurate---which I've said repeatedly that should be the one thing they get right on the box at the time........however, it's clear that even that gets botched sometimes:
You'll note Dick Garmaker is listed as going 3/3 from the FT line in the boxscore; however, he's clearly seen missing the front-end of a pair of FT's late in the 3rd Q (line 327 in the log, and there's a video time-stamp near that play if you wish to view for yourself). The commentator even comments about how it's relatively rare for Garmaker to miss a FT. So.....:dontknow:

It's strange to be honest, I wonder if that's a one game fluke or we should start to doubt in pre-broadcast stats at this point.

Jack Twyman - Limited highlight footage I'd seen of him previously left me with the impression he was mostly a set-shooter......not at all the case. Very much a jump-shooter, and he actually has a pretty lightning-quick release. He's also got a very quick first step, and pretty good open-court speed.
His range extends out to pretty close to 3pt range, although he only sporadically actually does shoot from near there (I didn't record any of his 34 attempts as actually being from 24+ [or 23.75+] feet); he almost exclusively stays within about 21', with the majority of his attempts the 14-21' range.
The guy could shoot, no question. Could see him having a Klay Thompson-like career in the modern league (same size, tendency toward outside shooting, quick release, etc).

Yeah, I was highly impressed with Twyman's shooting ability in this game. He missed quite a few shots, but a lot of his attempts weren't easy wide open shots, he had the ability to knock down contested jumpshots. He seemed to be fine athlete as well, despite what I've heard about him. Just really good offensive player and it's not a surpirse that he thrived next to Oscar.

Have you looked at his defense? I think he wasn't anything special in this game, but he didn't make a lot of mistakes either. Just average type of defender.

Slick Leonard - I may have been a little too quick to disparage Leonard based on that Packer game. His handle looked weak in that game, and he made so many bad passes (again: TEN turnovers in the Packer/Knick game). It's a complete 180 in this game: ZERO turnovers (despite taking a team-high 26 FGA).
Based on these two games he seems more of a score-first PG/combo guard, as opposed to a playmaker (though his career numbers don't necessarily reflect that completely).
He's a bit off from the outside in this game (on the shot-location charts, it's brought his % from the outside down considerably); although based on his career shooting percentages, it's perhaps not off for him (he's a career 34.9% FG%).
He's finishing stronger at the rim than I'd expected based on how he looks.

His range goes out to legit 3pt territory: between these two games I've got him taking 8 attempts from 3pt range (and making 3 of them), and one I labelled as 25' (he was at least a foot behind where the 3pt line would have been). fwiw, one of those makes was a 50-foot heave at the end of a quarter in the Packers game; so he's 2/7 from "trey" otherwise. Numerous other shots in the 22-23' range, though (and so far is 6/18 from 16-23', between both games......so 9/26 total from >16').

While his set-shot is that almost two-handed push from the chest that is typical in this era, and his jump-shot looks essentially "modern", his FT is a total one-hander: he takes the guide-hand off entirely. Probably hurts his accuracy there; is a career 74.5% FT shooter, though just 10/18 in the videos provided.

Slick was a prototypical 1950s guard based on what I've seen, but he was quite crafty inside and he could beat his man off the dribble. He was also willing to take shots from way outside, which could explain low FG% in his career. I'm not a fan of what I've seen from him, but he was certainly a decent player. This setshot looks very solid and he had a lot of faith in it. I do think that he forced way too much in both games we have, but then again - his teams were far from very talented overall (although having Baylor should help him getting more easy looks).

Elgin Baylor - Terrific athlete. Really nice touch from outside, and a super-strong finisher if he can get in close. Where he's REALLY struggled in the two games I've logged is the in-between, specifically the 10-16' range. At the rim, he's fantastic. From the outside he's been really good. Even from 3-10' he's been excellent [on very limited sample], as many of these are sort of runners, fluid running jump hooks or push-shots, etc.
From 10-16', though, it's usually a pull-up, and he's shown a habit of not going up fluidly off the dribble, but too often after picking up his dribble and pausing--->allowing the defender to really chest up on him. He'll try to shake him a little with maybe a head/shoulder fake, or nudge a little to get an inch or two of space, and then try to pull-up from a dead-stop. Kobe Bryant-like shots (just really really hard, and probably not the best shot selection).

And so far it's showing in the numbers: he's 0/10 in the 10-16' range.
He's hitting frankly AMAZING [even by modern standards] everywhere else on the court. And the other thing of note in his shot chart data is that this is almost all in isolation: so far only 20% of his FG's were assisted.

And I'll once more give a shout out to his passing. Really an underrated playmaker, imo. Leads his team in assists [by more than double anyone else] in this Royals game, fwiw; and a couple of pretty nice dimes included in that, too.

His lack of efficiency from close midrange can be explained in a way you did - he had bad habits of doing short stops before shooting which gave defenders more time to recover. On top of that, he had tendency of shooting turnaround one handed shots which he could make, but they definitely lower his efficiency.

I'm quite high on Baylor's offense the more I watch it. He was excellent all-around scorer but it's his passing and handles that are underrated historically. He was really a well rounded offensive player, even though many people view him in a way of typical high scoring SF. I really view him as Kobe-esque figure, only with less experienced coaches that allowed him for even more ridiculous shots.

Baylor also looks quite good defensively here, probably the best I've seen from him. He blocked and contested some shots and his athleticism helped Lakers inside. Very good rebounder as well, but we already knew it from other games.

[
b]Larry Foust[/b] - This is actually the first I've got to see of Foust. At this point he's 31 years old, and the commentator mentioned that he's struggled with back problems going back into his late 20's (something I wasn't aware of). He would still remain an good/effective role player in the league thru '62 (age 33). To me, this is suggestive of an adaptable (era-portable) game.

Although he never had high assist totals, he shows moments/flares in this game of being a good passing big.
He seems to screen out his man well when posting up--->there are TWO instances where he draws a foul when his man tries to get around to snipe the entry pass, but just cannot do so without committing the foul.
Looks like he's got decent touch out to 12-14' at least. And he made his FT's well for a big.
bbref lists him as 6'9" and 215 lbs (though he looks heavier in this video; suspect he may have been closer to 225-230 by this stage of his career). So he's legit PF sized (or even a slightly undersized C--->bigger than Al Horford or Montrezl Harrell, for example).

I didn't respect Foust game nearly enough until this game came to my hands. Foust had nice looking offensive game - he had decent jumpshot, he could pass the ball and he was sound in the post. He didn't have high rebounding numbers, but he tried hard on boxing out opponents.

I also think that he looks far bigger than 215 lbs and to me your estimation might be even a bit low - Foust had serious frame on him here and I wouldn't be surprised if he weighed around 235-240 lbs. For me he looks like someone who wouldn't be out of place even 30 years later and that's past prime Foust.

The only thing I don't love about him is his lack of vertical game, he just wasn't excellent athlete. It's visible when you watch his another available game (against Lakers from 1952, he was much younger then). He more than held his own against Mikan in this game (available on YT).

Anyway, I'll leave it there (no need for me to comment on EVERY player). Thanks again for providing the footage.


Can I ask for one more - rookie Embry? He had quite good rebounding game and he showed flashes of decent offensive potential here. He was also MASSIVE as a rookie, at very least 240 lbs of muscles.

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