The links for the YouTube video of the game is in the column on the right at the very top of each game log.
Games I've logged at this point (*indicates On/Off finished):
10/25/59 (rs game): Lakers @ Royals
10/19/61 (rs game): Packers @ Knicks
12/1/61 (rs game): Nationals @ Knicks
4/18/62 (game 7 NBA Finals, ~25% of game): Lakers @ Celtics [in process]
4/24/63 (game 6 NBA Finals): Celtics @ Lakers
4/9/67 (game 4 EDF, 2nd half): 76'ers @ Celtics
2/14/68 (rs game): Rockets @ Knicks
4/6/69 (game 1 EDF): Celtics @ Knicks
10/28/69 (rs game): Hawks @ Knicks
3/7/70 (rs game, ~75% of game): Royals @ Warriors
5/8/70 (game 7 NBA Finals): Lakers @ Knicks
4/30/71 (game 4 NBA Finals, 2nd half): Bucks @ Bullets
Additional games for which I've logged Shot Location Data only:
You'll note discrepancies [at times large ones] between the stat counts I get and the ones on the boxscores at the time. I don't know what to say other than I have the actual footage which I've gone over painstakingly, replaying some possessions over and over and over to make sure I've got it right.
In multiple spots the boxscores are just flat wrong; there's no other way to interpret it. I suspect it's primarily a function of limited number of stat-keepers who have to keep a tally of things as the action is happening (no access to instant replay), and in this era they likely didn't pay any staff to review the game footage after the fact and ensure more accurate accounting of box-stats.......so whatever these individuals recorded at the time is "official".
And I'm not sure if [potentially, anyway] there might not have be some "home-town stat-keepers" trying to fudge the numbers slightly [as long as it doesn't mess with the final score] to make opponents look worse and home-town players look better???
In that Lakers/Celtics G6, for example, I noted Jerry West did not have a good shooting night: I count him as going 13/29 from the field; the "official" box-score has him 13/24. And these weren't tricky ones open to interpretation (e.g. a partially controlled tip attempt---->do you count that as an offensive rebound and missed FGA? or is it still a loose ball and it's counted as nothing?).....these were mostly pull-up jumpers from 15-20 feet [i.e. VERY obvious FGA's] that apparently were not recorded; additionally it appears some of the defensive rebounds on these were likewise not recorded, as I found they shorted Bill Russell by three rebounds, for example.
If I've learned one thing from this exercise so far, it's to take the "official" stats from pre-merger era (and particularly 60s and earlier) with a grain of salt. HOPEFULLY at least whatever errors in recording there were, it effected all players in relatively equal fashion in the long-run.
trex_8063 wrote:70sFan wrote:Thank you very much for this post. I'm waiting for even more details, you did excellent job as always
I agree with your overall impression of Richie Guerin, he looks like very good player, not only for that era.
By the way, when you finish analyzing this game I can post here 2 other full games that I have from that era (1959/60 Lakers vs Royals and 1961/62 Packers vs Knicks). Just let me know if you want to see them
I finished doing the play-by-play log (linked below). THERE ARE A FEW MISSED POSSESSIONS IN THE VIDEO (they are noted in the log [red print], usually with a video time-stamp).
As a result, my full accounting of box stats leave 2 pts by the Knicks unaccounted for; presumably a made FG by Cleveland Buckner (6 made FG's listed in the official boxscore, but only 5 accounted for in the video), and 4 pts by the Nats unaccounted for (presumably 2 for 2 made FT's by D.Schayes and 2 for 3 FT's by Swede Halbrook)......FT's from the official boxscore are likely accurate [one would think], as it's the easiest thing to log correctly (the action slows down, and there's basically no room for misinterpretation).
I'd mentioned I didn't see five made FG's for Hal Greer (that's what's listed in the boxscore), only four. I do, however, count FOUR made FG's for Joe Roberts (whereas the boxscore only lists THREE for him). These FG's by Roberts can be seen at the following time-stamps:
and the final goal at 43:34.
The only one I'm not sure about is the final one [did it beat the clock?]. You cannot see a ref in the shot [who may have waved it off as after the buzzer], but I tend to think this FG counted based on three observations:
1) Everyone still appears to be playing, jostling for rebounding position (indicating the clock hadn't sounded).
2) Dave Budd for the Knicks actually even takes the ball out after the make, as though to make one final inbound for NY (hardly expected behavior if the buzzer had sounded).
3) As indicated on line 492 of the log ("possessions missing"), we've already got 2 pts for Syracuse unaccounted for within these final several minutes (even with this final bucket by Roberts). If we take it away, that leaves 4 pts unaccounted for. It's highly unlikely that included in these missing late possessions is a FG by Hal Greer, given he left the game early somewhat early in the 4th quarter (see line 393 in the log) and does not appear to have been re-inserted into the line-up again.
It's also unlikely that his "missing FG" is the 2 pts unaccounted for from the first three quarters of play......because as you'll note in the log, those seem to have come by way of 1 missing point in the first half, and 1 missing point in the 3rd quarter.
So if Greer's missing FG didn't come in the first three quarters (because there's no place for a 2-pt chunk in the missing scores), and didn't come late in the game (because he was out of the line-up).......I'm led to believe the "official boxscore" has mistakenly credited one of Joe Roberts' FG's to Hal Greer.
NBA basketball was a much smaller operation at this stage in history, with fewer stat-keepers, no video replay, and fewer checks and balances. It's not hard to imagine the [likely white] local stat-keeper crediting the wrong black man in a Nationals jersey [similar numbers on jerseys, too: #12 for Roberts, #15 for Greer] with the bucket.
Anyway, that's what I believe happened. I'm copying these arguments right into the game log, so I won't forget.
I'll include the shot location data too.....
EDIT: btw, couple additional things [that don't effect that score] that are unaccounted for in the video:
0/1 FT's by Dave Budd, 0/2 FT's by Johnny Green.
Oh, and yes I'd love to see the other full games you have. I'll attempt to create game and shot-data logs for them as well.
Shot location data
I will be moving on to log this Knicks/Packers rs game from '62:
Thanks again, 70sFan, for providing some of these videos.