Game logs and shot data for old games

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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#21 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jul 8, 2020 10:53 pm

70sFan wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:That's assuming the FT tally on the official boxscore is accurate---which I've said repeatedly that should be the one thing they get right on the box at the time........however, it's clear that even that gets botched sometimes:
You'll note Dick Garmaker is listed as going 3/3 from the FT line in the boxscore; however, he's clearly seen missing the front-end of a pair of FT's late in the 3rd Q (line 327 in the log, and there's a video time-stamp near that play if you wish to view for yourself). The commentator even comments about how it's relatively rare for Garmaker to miss a FT. So.....:dontknow:

It's strange to be honest, I wonder if that's a one game fluke or we should start to doubt in pre-broadcast stats at this point.


I think I've seen enough to doubt pretty much anything mid-60's or earlier.
Although [as I stated earlier], whatever errors there are hopefully effect everyone more or less equally in the long-run (such that general comparative relationships [statistically] more or less hold true).


70sFan wrote:
Jack Twyman - Limited highlight footage I'd seen of him previously left me with the impression he was mostly a set-shooter......not at all the case. Very much a jump-shooter, and he actually has a pretty lightning-quick release. He's also got a very quick first step, and pretty good open-court speed.
His range extends out to pretty close to 3pt range, although he only sporadically actually does shoot from near there (I didn't record any of his 34 attempts as actually being from 24+ [or 23.75+] feet); he almost exclusively stays within about 21', with the majority of his attempts the 14-21' range.
The guy could shoot, no question. Could see him having a Klay Thompson-like career in the modern league (same size, tendency toward outside shooting, quick release, etc).

Yeah, I was highly impressed with Twyman's shooting ability in this game. He missed quite a few shots, but a lot of his attempts weren't easy wide open shots, he had the ability to knock down contested jumpshots. He seemed to be fine athlete as well, despite what I've heard about him. Just really good offensive player and it's not a surpirse that he thrived next to Oscar.

Have you looked at his defense? I think he wasn't anything special in this game, but he didn't make a lot of mistakes either. Just average type of defender.


Yeah, he appeared more or less average to me too. Nothing glaringly wrong with his defense, but he certainly wasn't a stand-out either.
There were a couple of instances where he moved his feet really well (he drew one charge, iirc, by moving his feet). He's somewhat absent on the defensive glass in this game, but his career numbers indicate he probably must have been "OK" on the defensive glass generally.


70sFan wrote:
Elgin Baylor - Terrific athlete. Really nice touch from outside, and a super-strong finisher if he can get in close. Where he's REALLY struggled in the two games I've logged is the in-between, specifically the 10-16' range. At the rim, he's fantastic. From the outside he's been really good. Even from 3-10' he's been excellent [on very limited sample], as many of these are sort of runners, fluid running jump hooks or push-shots, etc.
From 10-16', though, it's usually a pull-up, and he's shown a habit of not going up fluidly off the dribble, but too often after picking up his dribble and pausing--->allowing the defender to really chest up on him. He'll try to shake him a little with maybe a head/shoulder fake, or nudge a little to get an inch or two of space, and then try to pull-up from a dead-stop. Kobe Bryant-like shots (just really really hard, and probably not the best shot selection).

And so far it's showing in the numbers: he's 0/10 in the 10-16' range.
He's hitting frankly AMAZING [even by modern standards] everywhere else on the court. And the other thing of note in his shot chart data is that this is almost all in isolation: so far only 20% of his FG's were assisted.

And I'll once more give a shout out to his passing. Really an underrated playmaker, imo. Leads his team in assists [by more than double anyone else] in this Royals game, fwiw; and a couple of pretty nice dimes included in that, too.

His lack of efficiency from close midrange can be explained in a way you did - he had bad habits of doing short stops before shooting which gave defenders more time to recover. On top of that, he had tendency of shooting turnaround one handed shots which he could make, but they definitely lower his efficiency.

I'm quite high on Baylor's offense the more I watch it. He was excellent all-around scorer but it's his passing and handles that are underrated historically. He was really a well rounded offensive player, even though many people view him in a way of typical high scoring SF. I really view him as Kobe-esque figure, only with less experienced coaches that allowed him for even more ridiculous shots.

Baylor also looks quite good defensively here, probably the best I've seen from him. He blocked and contested some shots and his athleticism helped Lakers inside. Very good rebounder as well, but we already knew it from other games.


Yes! He actually looks very good defensively in this game. At one point while on the FT line, the commentator is going on about his defensive presence (and improvements from his rookie year--->though I once noted the big improvement the Lakers made defensively when he arrived as a rookie).
I'd previously mentioned Twyman's surprisingly quick first step.....well, there's one instance where he uses it in attempt to beat Baylor off the dribble; but Baylor moves so well laterally he stays right in front and takes Twyman's shoulder squarely in the center of his chest, gets the offensive foul call.

He also blocks two shots in this game (I recall one of them being pretty impressive, too), contests 1 or 2 others pretty well. And of course the defensive rebounding presence as well.
Probably another underrated aspect of his game, as people tend to fixate on his offense.


70sFan wrote:Larry Foust - ......
For me he looks like someone who wouldn't be out of place even 30 years later and that's past prime Foust.


Totally agree. And you may be right; I too wouldn't be surprised if I learned he actually weighed closer to 240 in that video.


70sFan wrote:
Anyway, I'll leave it there (no need for me to comment on EVERY player). Thanks again for providing the footage.


Can I ask for one more - rookie Embry? He had quite good rebounding game and he showed flashes of decent offensive potential here. He was also MASSIVE as a rookie, at very least 240 lbs of muscles.
[/quote]

Oh yeah, good call; he's definitely worth a little discussion.
What can I say about him?......
Well, for starters I agree: he's a big strong dude. Vertical game a bit limited, but he uses that big body pretty well (he had the game-high 15 rebounds, for example, despite sitting out a long stretch because he picked up 3 fouls early). And nobody's really moving him if he didn't want to be moved (even Foust, who [as you mentioned] wasn't a small guy either).
When they show the close-up as he set for a FTA, his form looks strange to me; and incidentally that season was his career-worst at the line (weirdly, by a LONG shot at only 51.4%; was a career 64.0%). He otherwise showed a pinch more range than I was expecting, even going 1/2 from 16-23' (actual jump-shots, too). Looked like a "not bad" passer out of the post, too; could do those little misdirection one-handed passes/hand-offs because he could easily palm the ball (Foust did too, fwiw; interestingly the commentator stated at one point while Embry was on the line that Embry had a 12" hand-span!).


EDIT: I need a second opinion on a play in the Rockets/Knicks video......at 1:35....what was the call there? Do you think that was a shooting foul on Hank Finkel [and they're just not showing any of the FT's]?
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#22 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 9, 2020 6:56 am

trex_8063 wrote:Oh yeah, good call; he's definitely worth a little discussion.
What can I say about him?......
Well, for starters I agree: he's a big strong dude. Vertical game a bit limited, but he uses that big body pretty well (he had the game-high 15 rebounds, for example, despite sitting out a long stretch because he picked up 3 fouls early). And nobody's really moving him if he didn't want to be moved (even Foust, who [as you mentioned] wasn't a small guy either).
When they show the close-up as he set for a FTA, his form looks strange to me; and incidentally that season was his career-worst at the line (weirdly, by a LONG shot at only 51.4%; was a career 64.0%). He otherwise showed a pinch more range than I was expecting, even going 1/2 from 16-23' (actual jump-shots, too). Looked like a "not bad" passer out of the post, too; could do those little misdirection one-handed passes/hand-offs because he could easily palm the ball (Foust did too, fwiw; interestingly the commentator stated at one point while Embry was on the line that Embry had a 12" hand-span!).

He looks like a smart but limited player to me, someone that would be valuable piece but never reach star status. I like how he crashed offensive glass here.

I read somewhere that Embry had the largest hands in NBA history. I don't know if it's still his record, but he had bigger hands than Wilt or Shaq from what I've heard.


EDIT: I need a second opinion on a play in the Rockets/Knicks video......at 1:35....what was the call there? Do you think that was a shooting foul on Hank Finkel [and they're just not showing any of the FT's]?

I'd go with shooting foul here. Referee seemed to start showing 2 FTs before the film splits and I don't think it was an off-ball call. I'm as convinced with shooting foul here as it is possible with such a film.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#23 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 9, 2020 9:50 am

I also have one observation - counting assists is a bit subjective - I credited Embry with 4 assists for example compared to your 2. So any noise in assists numbers can be explained by subjective aspect.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#24 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 9, 2020 9:50 am

I also have one observation - counting assists is a bit subjective - I credited Embry with 4 assists for example compared to your 2. So any noise in assists numbers can be explained by subjective aspect.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#25 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jul 9, 2020 3:45 pm

70sFan wrote:I also have one observation - counting assists is a bit subjective - I credited Embry with 4 assists for example compared to your 2. So any noise in assists numbers can be explained by subjective aspect.


By any chance did you note the video time-stamp of the assists you credited? I'd sort of like to be able to review and compare with my own log if possible.

Yeah, assists are hard [by that I mean VERY subjective]. I've tried to mostly credit them with a mentality that hedges at least slightly toward a more modern [generous] interpretation, but perhaps not TOTALLY hedging in that direction, because I do think it's *TOO generous at times these days.

*I remember a few years ago watching the NBA highlight reel of some 20-assist (or 24?? something like that) game for Deron Williams; and one of the assists was just him making the most basic of passes to the wing, who momentarily ducked into a triple-threat position (long enough for the defender to more or less get set), pump-faked, then drove [taking two dribbles] into the lane and scored. Apparently that was an assist for Williams. I am NOT being that generous.


The other ones I find super-subjective are:
1) Which tips to call an offensive rebound and FGA.
2) Who to give credit for the steal when one guy pokes the ball loose and a teammate recovers it.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 9, 2020 4:05 pm

Part 3:
0:54 assist
3:32 assist
Part 4:
3:14 assist
7:08 assist

I didn't re-checked it though, so I could be wrong.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#27 » by 70sFan » Thu Jul 9, 2020 4:33 pm

Another game will be from 1969 ;)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#28 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jul 9, 2020 6:49 pm

70sFan wrote:Part 3:
0:54 assist
3:32 assist
Part 4:
3:14 assist
7:08 assist

I didn't re-checked it though, so I could be wrong.



The first assist above is one I too credited him with.

The second on that list I did not credit him for. The hand-off is sort sloppy (ball either dropped or poked by the defender), with Wilfong sort of chasing it down, recovering it after one bounce on the baseline; he then makes one shot fake with his right shoulder angled toward the defender, then swings ball down low across his body [until his left shoulder is angled to the defender] continuing the motion upward to pull up for a difficult jumper off the stand-still.
It's debatable, and I certainly don't strenuous object to that being called an assist. But between the partially botched hand-off, Wilfong getting in two "moves" or feints before going up for the shot (and nearly 2.5 seconds transpiring between the [attempted] hand-off and the ball actually leaving Wilfong's hand), I opted not to count it.

Third one I also credited.

Fourth one I did not credit as I don't think Embry had full control of the ball, and I don't think that was an intended "pass".
You can see the entry pass to Embry basically just bounce off his hand (not an actual catch followed by a controlled pass); he makes actual physical contact with the ball for literally just a fraction of a second. And what's more: as soon as the ball bounced off his hand you can see Embry lunge after it [as though to recover a loose ball]; he almost bumps Wilfong out of bounds, in fact.

So whereas I don't have a strong opinion about the 2nd one, I actually do disagree with this one. I don't think Embry ever even had control of the ball on this play.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#29 » by 70sFan » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:46 am

Alright, it seems that trex is close to finish this game, so I share another one:

https://youtu.be/FTyplnVh_e0

This one is special, because it's from playoffs :)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#30 » by frica » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:06 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:That's assuming the FT tally on the official boxscore is accurate---which I've said repeatedly that should be the one thing they get right on the box at the time........however, it's clear that even that gets botched sometimes:
You'll note Dick Garmaker is listed as going 3/3 from the FT line in the boxscore; however, he's clearly seen missing the front-end of a pair of FT's late in the 3rd Q (line 327 in the log, and there's a video time-stamp near that play if you wish to view for yourself). The commentator even comments about how it's relatively rare for Garmaker to miss a FT. So.....:dontknow:

It's strange to be honest, I wonder if that's a one game fluke or we should start to doubt in pre-broadcast stats at this point.


I think I've seen enough to doubt pretty much anything mid-60's or earlier.
Although [as I stated earlier], whatever errors there are hopefully effect everyone more or less equally in the long-run (such that general comparative relationships [statistically] more or less hold true).



Reminds me of a boxing match I can no longer find, but there happened a brawl and the commentator went along with "There are more than a dozen men inside the ring right now." I counted them by hand, there weren't even 8 in there.

That's when I started taking commentators at face value.
So when I see an old newspaper saying "Player x blocked more than a dozen shots", I have a hard time believing without footage.

Counting errors happen, even today. People like to make big numbers bigger either way.
I imagine this happened a lot more in the past. These days everything is recorded so errors are quickly pointed.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#31 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:25 pm

frica wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:It's strange to be honest, I wonder if that's a one game fluke or we should start to doubt in pre-broadcast stats at this point.


I think I've seen enough to doubt pretty much anything mid-60's or earlier.
Although [as I stated earlier], whatever errors there are hopefully effect everyone more or less equally in the long-run (such that general comparative relationships [statistically] more or less hold true).



Reminds me of a boxing match I can no longer find, but there happened a brawl and the commentator went along with "There are more than a dozen men inside the ring right now." I counted them by hand, there weren't even 8 in there.

That's when I started taking commentators at face value.
So when I see an old newspaper saying "Player x blocked more than a dozen shots", I have a hard time believing without footage.

Counting errors happen, even today. People like to make big numbers bigger either way.
I imagine this happened a lot more in the past. These days everything is recorded so errors are quickly pointed.


Yeah, I'm finding a lot of small [usually] errors in the boxscores of the time.

Although, fwiw, in that one Celtics game I've logged thus far (G6 of the '63 Finals), Russell did have 7 blocked shots, plus one other play that I credited among my "great contests" tallies (occurs late in the 2nd quarter, line #219 in the log, 44:05 time-stamp on the video......West is originally going up for a shot, and I'm not sure but I think Russell may have made contact with the ball; only reason I didn't call it a block is it looks like West changes his mind mid-air [realizing it's going to be swatted back in his face] and tries to redirect as a pass back out to the perimeter). I credited K.C.Jones with the steal, but really I think that play was forced by Russell, so he needed credit in some way.

And he managed these numbers without him biting on every fake, or trying to make plays on everything (only has three PF's in the game, despite playing all 48 minutes). He really picks his spots, and if he goes for it is generally successful.

I only bring that up because it's not hard for me to imagine him having a dozen(ish) blocks on a fairly regular basis. But yeah, I get what you're saying. There is a trend of sensationalizing events.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#32 » by LKN » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:14 pm

This is a great thread. I will say it makes me wonder how much we can really trust old box scores. I can't remember what book I read it in, but the author commented that it was somewhat common to give star players like Russell and Wilt extra rebounds at home.

Awesome work you are doing here!
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#33 » by trex_8063 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:12 pm

70sFan wrote:Alright, it seems that trex is close to finish this game, so I share another one:

https://youtu.be/FTyplnVh_e0

This one is special, because it's from playoffs :)


OK, this one is fully logged (well, not on/off yet; intend to get to that at some point). It's fairly complete; there are 2 pts for the Celtics unaccounted for, presumably 2/2 FT's by Em Bryant, as he's listed as having 5 made FT's in the boxscore, but I can only account for the 3 in the video. Interestingly, the box also has him as missing only 1 FTA, but he's clearly shown missing TWO in a row at the end of the 1st quarter. The second missed one appears to be tipped in on the buzzer by Don Nelson, but when I'd completed the game I noted I had Nelson credited for one more FG than the box does, so I went back and looked and indeed the ref is seen waiving off the basket [which begs the question: why have them line up to rebound at all?.....because a tip cannot be any quicker].

4 pts for the Knicks are unaccounted for (I note in red in the log where I fall short of the scoreboard score and/or where a possession was obviously absent from the video); these appear to be by way of 1/1 FT's EACH for Frazier and Reed, and 2/2 FT's by Barnett. Incidentally, I found Barnett to have likely had 1 additional missed FTA than the box credits him for).
Also, I believe the "official" boxscore mis-credited one FG by Dave DeBusschere to Walt Frazier (I had one MORE made FG for DeBusschere and one LESS for Frazier than is in the boxscore). But I can pretty well prove I'm not mistaken about Dave's 4 made FG's: they are at 0:55, 5:09, 18:55, and 41:28 in the video.


So what else ya got?
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#34 » by 70sFan » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:38 am

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Alright, it seems that trex is close to finish this game, so I share another one:

https://youtu.be/FTyplnVh_e0

This one is special, because it's from playoffs :)


OK, this one is fully logged (well, not on/off yet; intend to get to that at some point). It's fairly complete; there are 2 pts for the Celtics unaccounted for, presumably 2/2 FT's by Em Bryant, as he's listed as having 5 made FT's in the boxscore, but I can only account for the 3 in the video. Interestingly, the box also has him as missing only 1 FTA, but he's clearly shown missing TWO in a row at the end of the 1st quarter. The second missed one appears to be tipped in on the buzzer by Don Nelson, but when I'd completed the game I noted I had Nelson credited for one more FG than the box does, so I went back and looked and indeed the ref is seen waiving off the basket [which begs the question: why have them line up to rebound at all?.....because a tip cannot be any quicker].

4 pts for the Knicks are unaccounted for (I note in red in the log where I fall short of the scoreboard score and/or where a possession was obviously absent from the video); these appear to be by way of 1/1 FT's EACH for Frazier and Reed, and 2/2 FT's by Barnett. Incidentally, I found Barnett to have likely had 1 additional missed FTA than the box credits him for).
Also, I believe the "official" boxscore mis-credited one FG by Dave DeBusschere to Walt Frazier (I had one MORE made FG for DeBusschere and one LESS for Frazier than is in the boxscore). But I can pretty well prove I'm not mistaken about Dave's 4 made FG's: they are at 0:55, 5:09, 18:55, and 41:28 in the video.


So what else ya got?




Here is another game ;)

Do you have any notes about Knicks vs Celtics game?
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#35 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:48 pm

70sFan wrote:


Here is another game ;)

Do you have any notes about Knicks vs Celtics game?


Do you have any idea when that Knick/Hawks game was played? The final score shown is 126-106 (Knicks)......but for the life of me I cannot find a game with that result from ANY of '68-'70 on bbref. The closest I found was a 126-93 victory for the Knicks.


As to the Knicks/Celtics game......

Well firstly, from the standpoint of logging the game, I must say I had a helluva time distinguishing Don May from Mike Riordan.
I mean, watching a low resolution black-and-white film [that has NO zoom-in shots of players], do you have any idea how hard it is to distinguish one 6'4" white guy with brown hair who shoots left-handed in a white jersey with the number [block-form] "5" stitched [in orange?] on it........from another 6'4" white guy with brown hair who shoots left-handed in a white jersey and the number "6" stitched on it?
Let me tell you, it's hard. :lol:

Anyway....

Bill Russell
Having just logged that game from '63, it's evident he's lost something physically by this point. He just doesn't have the same quickness, or bounce on the jump. Couple spots late in the game where he looks gassed, too (he plays all 48 minutes). Still likely the best defensive player in the game, though I suspect it's perhaps not by quite the same margin as it had been in the mid-60s; he's likely not FAR ahead of guys like Wilt Chamberlain [or Nate Thurmond] by this point.

Walt Frazier
This guy is so money in certain ranges, and he's excellent at getting to those ranges too; likely why he's so far ahead of the general curve (especially for perimeter players) in shooting efficiency, but I'll post more about this at a later date (after I log this new Knicks game, so I'll have more data to go by).

Dave DeBusschere
He was SUPER active in this game (both sides of the ball). Never realized what a motor he had. And he's a much more capable creator than I'd previously given him credit for. He's willing to handle the ball (and not terrible at it), and is actually a somewhat adept passer (I credit him with 5 assists in this game, which is second only to Frazier on the Knicks). He really fills up the box-score, though not always in a good way (lot of missed shots).
Physical defensively. And I was expecting to see him perform more as a "containment" man defender; instead it seems he really shines as a help and chaos creator: getting deflections, closing hard on shooters (sometimes getting a block), sniping on the help-D, etc.

Don Nelson
Very happy to shoot the ball most times he gets it if given the slightest window. Clearly is comfortable out to at least 18' or so, which does draw the opposing PF out a bit, and he seems to have nice shooting touch and form (despite his utterly silly-looking FT form).

John Havlicek
I want to get a few more games data collected before I start drawing any conclusions regarding his sweet-spots, but so far he's not as adept at shooting outside of 10' as I had impressions of for him. There are some games from the 70's on YouTube I'll log, though, to get a bigger sample (I remember him shooting well in one or two of them, whereas he wasn't particularly hot [marginally cold, actually] in either of the Celtic games I've logged so far).
Couple spots where I was a little disappointed in his coverage of Bill Bradley, though only a couple. Was late in the game; maybe even Hondo gets gassed sometimes???? [he played all 48 minutes too]

Larry Siegfried
This is the most eye-balling I've had on Siegfried to date (he plays about half the game); he's a bit more athletic and capable of getting his own shot than I was expecting.

Dick Barnett
This is now the third game I have logged for Barnett (he was a member of the '63 Lakers, so I have that one game plus now two Knick games). He's a REALLY capable outside shooter (at least that's the way the data is shaping up). He doesn't show much inclination toward actual 3pt range [though why would he?], but he'll routinely shoot in the 17-20' [or so] range and is making them at a REALLY nice clip [so far]. I'm also noting he's a pretty scrappy defender, at least when he sets his mind to applying some ball pressure. Between he and Frazier, they can really get opposing backcourts out of rhythm, as well as generate a few turnovers.

Em Bryant
Now the 2nd game I have logged for him (he was with the Knicks the previous year, so have that Knicks/Rockets game, though he barely played). Energetic guy (on both ends), though small/limited defensively. Not a bad playmaker, and is comfortable/willing to shoot out to about 22' (though not much of a threat from that far out). Looking at Bryant's career overall it's clear he was never better than an "OK" role player; curious as to why Russell gave him the start over Siegfried in this one (and played him 40 minutes, 3rd only to Russell himself and Havlicek, while Siegfried played just 23 minutes according to the boxscore).

Tom Sanders
It just occurred to me after the fact that Sanders was absent this game. Looking at bbref I note that after not missing a single game in the rs, he missed 3 playoff games [this among them].
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#36 » by 70sFan » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:38 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Do you have any idea when that Knick/Hawks game was played? The final score shown is 126-106 (Knicks)......but for the life of me I cannot find a game with that result from ANY of '68-'70 on bbref. The closest I found was a 126-93 victory for the Knicks.

It is this game:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196910280NYK.html

Are you sure that Hawks finished with 106 points in this video?

As to the Knicks/Celtics game......

Well firstly, from the standpoint of logging the game, I must say I had a helluva time distinguishing Don May from Mike Riordan.
I mean, watching a low resolution black-and-white film [that has NO zoom-in shots of players], do you have any idea how hard it is to distinguish one 6'4" white guy with brown hair who shoots left-handed in a white jersey with the number [block-form] "5" stitched [in orange?] on it........from another 6'4" white guy with brown hair who shoots left-handed in a white jersey and the number "6" stitched on it?
Let me tell you, it's hard. :lol:

I know, it could be really hard. I remember tracking 1976 game between Spurs and Colonels and the quality was so terrible that I had problems with realizing when Gervin shot the ball.

Walt Frazier
This guy is so money in certain ranges, and he's excellent at getting to those ranges too; likely why he's so far ahead of the general curve (especially for perimeter players) in shooting efficiency, but I'll post more about this at a later date (after I log this new Knicks game, so I'll have more data to go by).

I never tracked his shooting, but he looks so good in midrange area. Completely unguardable despite not so quick release.
I have more Knicks games to upload, so if you want to make longer post about him wait for more ;)

Dave DeBusschere
He was SUPER active in this game (both sides of the ball). Never realized what a motor he had. And he's a much more capable creator than I'd previously given him credit for. He's willing to handle the ball (and not terrible at it), and is actually a somewhat adept passer (I credit him with 5 assists in this game, which is second only to Frazier on the Knicks). He really fills up the box-score, though not always in a good way (lot of missed shots).
Physical defensively. And I was expecting to see him perform more as a "containment" man defender; instead it seems he really shines as a help and chaos creator: getting deflections, closing hard on shooters (sometimes getting a block), sniping on the help-D, etc.

I agree, at first I wasn't that high on Dave overall, but the more I watch him, the more I am impressed. Very smart offensive player and monster defensively.

Don Nelson
Very happy to shoot the ball most times he gets it if given the slightest window. Clearly is comfortable out to at least 18' or so, which does draw the opposing PF out a bit, and he seems to have nice shooting touch and form (despite his utterly silly-looking FT form).

I tracked Nelson plays from various games and I was surprised how nice his shooting touch was. He could also score around the basket with excellent ability to draw fouls.

John Havlicek
I want to get a few more games data collected before I start drawing any conclusions regarding his sweet-spots, but so far he's not as adept at shooting outside of 10' as I had impressions of for him. There are some games from the 70's on YouTube I'll log, though, to get a bigger sample (I remember him shooting well in one or two of them, whereas he wasn't particularly hot [marginally cold, actually] in either of the Celtic games I've logged so far).
Couple spots where I was a little disappointed in his coverage of Bill Bradley, though only a couple. Was late in the game; maybe even Hondo gets gassed sometimes???? [he played all 48 minutes too]

Yeah, we have more footage from Hondo and bigger sample of size would be better to judge him. I'm always impressed when I watch him and I also probably overrate his shooting ability by eye-test alone.

Dick Barnett
This is now the third game I have logged for Barnett (he was a member of the '63 Lakers, so I have that one game plus now two Knick games). He's a REALLY capable outside shooter (at least that's the way the data is shaping up). He doesn't show much inclination toward actual 3pt range [though why would he?], but he'll routinely shoot in the 17-20' [or so] range and is making them at a REALLY nice clip [so far]. I'm also noting he's a pretty scrappy defender, at least when he sets his mind to applying some ball pressure. Between he and Frazier, they can really get opposing backcourts out of rhythm, as well as generate a few turnovers.

Dick was much better shooter than I thought at first when I saw his jumpshot. It's almost impossible to be efficient with that form, but somehow he made it work.
I always liked what he gave Lakers/Knicks - scrappy defense, low turnovers, good shooting and decent driving that could open the game. He's the kind of guy you want on elite team.

I like that you focus on some lesser known players, it's nice to see someone appreciate roleplayers and non-star starters.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#37 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:58 pm

70sFan wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Do you have any idea when that Knick/Hawks game was played? The final score shown is 126-106 (Knicks)......but for the life of me I cannot find a game with that result from ANY of '68-'70 on bbref. The closest I found was a 126-93 victory for the Knicks.

It is this game:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196910280NYK.html

Are you sure that Hawks finished with 106 points in this video?


I don't know that that is what they ACTUALLY finished with; but look at the end of the video for yourself, it clearly shows the scoreboard at the end of regulation saying 126-106. I haven't watched or logged anything yet; I'm guessing perhaps the Knicks scored a basket right at the end which was initially mis-credited to the Hawks??......

That would have left me REALLY confused at the end if I couldn't find a way to make the video [and implied action] match the score shown.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#38 » by 70sFan » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:02 am

trex_8063 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Do you have any idea when that Knick/Hawks game was played? The final score shown is 126-106 (Knicks)......but for the life of me I cannot find a game with that result from ANY of '68-'70 on bbref. The closest I found was a 126-93 victory for the Knicks.

It is this game:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196910280NYK.html

Are you sure that Hawks finished with 106 points in this video?


I don't know that that is what they ACTUALLY finished with; but look at the end of the video for yourself, it clearly shows the scoreboard at the end of regulation saying 126-106. I haven't watched or logged anything yet; I'm guessing perhaps the Knicks scored a basket right at the end which was initially mis-credited to the Hawks??......

That would have left me REALLY confused at the end if I couldn't find a way to make the video [and implied action] match the score shown.

It's possible that the scoreboard men miscredited the last basket and they changed it after the film stops. Can't know for sure though, I didn't realize that there is that difference. I hope that this film is complete enough that you'll be able to find the mistake.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#39 » by trex_8063 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:06 am

70sFan wrote:.


OK, I've finished logging the Knicks/Hawks game from '70 (game-log, shot data, and boxscore [as complete as possible from video: few possessions missing as per usual]). Still haven't got around to attempting to create on/off data from these logs, though I intend to at some point.
Few minor discrepancies of official box to what is in video (and the few missing possessions, as noted). Was a little difficult to interpret some plays....basically no FT's were shown AT ALL [with the exception of just a couple], so when there was a sudden stoppage of play and the ref is not visible, it's hard to determine exactly what occurred.........was it a personal foul followed by a made FT and then inbound by other team? or was it a turnover (travelling, 3 seconds, offensive foul, etc)? Did the best I could with some of those dead-balls.


I've just barely started logging the 2nd half of game 4 of the 1971 NBA finals (Bucks/Bullets) from this video, fwiw:



You have anything else I can put in the que?
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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And1: 8,703
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Game logs and shot data for old games 

Post#40 » by 70sFan » Sat Aug 1, 2020 8:28 am

Well, I still have quite some 1970s games before 1974. Would you like to get them in chronological order?

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