Is Nikola Jokic an underrated defender?

[Dutchball97]

Recently I saw that Jokic vs Embiid is still an active discussion with some preferring Embiid because of Jokic' lack of defense. Now I know just looking at a stat doesn't paint the full picture but what surprises me is that Jokic grades out as pretty elite in both DWS and DBPM. This season Jokic is 12th in DWS (5th among centers behind Gobert, Brook Lopez, Drummond and Sabonis) and 9th in DBPM (2nd amond centers behind Brook Lopez). DWS and DBPM are pretty different at what they try to measure but both have Jokic as one of the best defenders in the league. It doesn't seem to be a fluke either as last year Jokic graded out even better, being 8th in DWS and 2nd in DBPM.

Do you think it is true that Jokic is actually a good defender or are these stats misleading here?

[prophet_of_rage]

Recently I saw that Jokic vs Embiid is still an active discussion with some preferring Embiid because of Jokic' lack of defense. Now I know just looking at a stat doesn't paint the full picture but what surprises me is that Jokic grades out as pretty elite in both DWS and DBPM. This season Jokic is 12th in DWS (5th among centers behind Gobert, Brook Lopez, Drummond and Sabonis) and 9th in DBPM (2nd amond centers behind Brook Lopez). DWS and DBPM are pretty different at what they try to measure but both have Jokic as one of the best defenders in the league. It doesn't seem to be a fluke either as last year Jokic graded out even better, being 8th in DWS and 2nd in DBPM.

Do you think it is true that Jokic is actually a good defender or are these stats misleading here?

Jokic is fine in the half court. Not good in transition obviously.

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[Whopper_Sr]

He's a net positive on that end.

Teams can exploit his subpar lateral speed by putting him in PnR since he can't stop guards or wings from blowing by him with relative ease. He's also not a shot blocker since he prefers to swipe at the ball low instead of going up to meet at the rim.

As a horizontal defender, he's solid. Good hands, sound positioning, can use his size to wall people off... akin to a big man version of Curry (who is also a net positive defender).

Millsap, Craig, Harris, and Grant are good/great defenders that can shore up Jokic's shortcomings. That's why advanced stats may overrate him a tad but looking at his tracking data, he's been very good this season. Likely his best defensive year so far in his career.

On Jokic vs. Embiid: Of course, he's no Embiid on defense but I think the offensive gap is bigger than the defensive gap between the two. I trust Jokic's scoring to hold up more against elite defenses. He's also the better shooter from anywhere on the court aside from the 3 point line where they are both inconsistent. Add to that his GOAT level passing and the ability to control the pace/game in the half court as the offensive hub of the team, we're looking at an all time level offensive big. Embiid's much higher FTr (.515 vs. .291 for career averages) does give him a nice boost though.

If he can get his FTr up and become a more consistent (or confident?) shooter, he'll be in the conversation for best player in the league for years to come (along with Giannis and Luka). His game will age incredibly well and can certainly see him end up as a top 20 ATG as he's primed to add 10 more years of his current level of play.

[Rich Michmond]

He is way better than he's given credit for. He's above average. Good positioning and defensive awareness, smart team defender, quick hands, quite strong. Not great at defending pick and rolls and not much of a shotblocker.

[limbo]

He is. A lot of people just peg him as a bad defender based on how he looks and the fact that he's not the fastest, most athletic, highest jumping player out there... But neither was Marc Gasol, and he won DPOY in 2013. Jokic has a lot of the same defensive strengths that made Marc Gasol effective on that end. Great positioning, active hands, doesn't commit dumb fouls...

[bondom34]

Whopper_Sr's post hit everything pretty well. I'd say he's weaker in open space guarding smalls especially in pick and roll situations, but overall he's positionally a plus and in other situations solid. He's good enough in terms of positioning and effort where he's not an active detriment and generally a positive I'd say.

[70sFan]

He is. A lot of people just peg him as a bad defender based on how he looks and the fact that he's not the fastest, most athletic, highest jumping player out there... But neither was Marc Gasol, and he won DPOY in 2013. Jokic has a lot of the same defensive strengths that made Marc Gasol effective on that end. Great positioning, active hands, doesn't commit dumb fouls...

Jokic is not as good as Gasol defensively though. Not even close in fact.

[No-more-rings]

He’s roughly prime Dirk level on D i’d say, not someone who’s a strong rim protector or has athletic gifts defensively but is fundamentally disciplined enough where they can be a small positive. I’m certainly not buying him being anywhere near elite though.

[limbo]

He is. A lot of people just peg him as a bad defender based on how he looks and the fact that he's not the fastest, most athletic, highest jumping player out there... But neither was Marc Gasol, and he won DPOY in 2013. Jokic has a lot of the same defensive strengths that made Marc Gasol effective on that end. Great positioning, active hands, doesn't commit dumb fouls...

Jokic is not as good as Gasol defensively though. Not even close in fact.

Ok. Did i say he was?

[Clyde Frazier]

Echoing others: underrated in that he's usually serviceable and not awful like one would assume. The quick hands, good instincts and understanding team scheme go a long way for a guy with other limitations.

[homecourtloss]

He's a net positive on that end.

Teams can exploit his subpar lateral speed by putting him in PnR since he can't stop guards or wings from blowing by him with relative ease. He's also not a shot blocker since he prefers to swipe at the ball low instead of going up to meet at the rim.

As a horizontal defender, he's solid. Good hands, sound positioning, can use his size to wall people off... akin to a big man version of Curry (who is also a net positive defender).

Millsap, Craig, Harris, and Grant are good/great defenders that can shore up Jokic's shortcomings. That's why advanced stats may overrate him a tad but looking at his tracking data, he's been very good this season. Likely his best defensive year so far in this career.

On Jokic vs. Embiid: Of course, he's no Embiid on defense but I think the offensive gap is bigger than the defensive gap between the two. I trust Jokic's scoring to hold up more against elite defenses. He's also the better shooter from anywhere on the court aside from the 3 point line where they are both inconsistent. Add to that his GOAT level passing and the ability to control the pace/game in the half court as the offensive hub of the team, we're looking at an all time level offensive big. Embiid's much higher FTr (.515 vs. .291 for career averages) does give him nice boost though.

If he can get his FTr up and become a more consistent (or confident?) shooter, he'll be in the conversation for best player in the league for years to come (along with Giannis and Luka). His game will age incredibly well and can certainly see him end up as a top 20 ATG as he's primed to add 10 more years of his current level of play.

There’s usually very little to add after Whopper posts.

[70sFan]

I view Jokic as underrated defensively, but he's nothing special on thay end either. He's very smart with rotations and he has quick hands, but he also lacks motor and athleticism to be a big positive on that end.

So overall slightly above average, but nothing more or less than that.

[Whopper_Sr]

There’s usually very little to add after Whopper posts.

Appreciate the sentiment.

Jokic is my favorite player and I'm grateful that he's the franchise cornerstone instead of Melo. The Nuggets would not be here had he waited until FA to go to NY instead of forcing his way out mid-season which allowed them to get back some good assets to rebuild.

[GSP]

Without question. He has too many problems for rim protection, recovering and perimeter/pick and roll.defense to be considered good at least relative to centers but his teams have consistently been better with him on the court defensively basically every year of his career. And he plays the 5 so it's hard to hide him to a significant degree compared to guards who have strong on/off defensive metrics but are covered by a bevy of elite/stacked defenders (like Steph)

He has high Iq and is disciplined/fundamental. A lot of timing and reading plays he gets to spots on the floor that ends actions or forces teams to adjust and move over to another offensive possession and plays like that don't show up unless you're watching carefully. He also has really fast hands

But def underrated specially among casuals. The way they talk about his defense you'd think he was Enes Kanter or Amare..he's been avg to above average basically every year of his career

[70sFan]

He is. A lot of people just peg him as a bad defender based on how he looks and the fact that he's not the fastest, most athletic, highest jumping player out there... But neither was Marc Gasol, and he won DPOY in 2013. Jokic has a lot of the same defensive strengths that made Marc Gasol effective on that end. Great positioning, active hands, doesn't commit dumb fouls...

Jokic is not as good as Gasol defensively though. Not even close in fact.

Ok. Did i say he was?

No you didn't but comparing him to Gasol can be misleading to some readers. Jokic is smart, but limited defender. Gasol is a great defender, probably one of the 5 best of the last decade. The difference is huge between them.

[BelgradeNugget]

Recently I saw that Jokic vs Embiid is still an active discussion with some preferring Embiid because of Jokic' lack of defense. Now I know just looking at a stat doesn't paint the full picture but what surprises me is that Jokic grades out as pretty elite in both DWS and DBPM. This season Jokic is 12th in DWS (5th among centers behind Gobert, Brook Lopez, Drummond and Sabonis) and 9th in DBPM (2nd amond centers behind Brook Lopez). DWS and DBPM are pretty different at what they try to measure but both have Jokic as one of the best defenders in the league. It doesn't seem to be a fluke either as last year Jokic graded out even better, being 8th in DWS and 2nd in DBPM.

Do you think it is true that Jokic is actually a good defender or are these stats misleading here?

You can add:
DRPM Jokic is 5th among centers
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/9
NBA Math DPS Jokic is 4th in the league
https://nbamath.com/2019-20-nba-tpa/

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It looks like he knows what he is doing on both sides on the court

[BelgradeNugget]

When people grade players on defense, they usually can't make a difference between making a "defensive play" and "playing defense". Those who make great "defensive plays" finish in NBA top 10. People see them as great defenders. At the same time "playing defense" is 48 min. process. Jokic is great in "playing defense". If you want a player to make a key defensive stop with 10 sec. on the shot clock don't take him.

[nolang1]

When people grade players on defense, they usually can't make a difference between making a "defensive play" and "playing defense". Those who make great "defensive plays" finish in NBA top 10. People see them as great defenders. At the same time "playing defense" is 48 min. process. Jokic is great in "playing defense". If you want a player to make a key defensive stop with 10 sec. on the shot clock don't take him.

I would go a step beyond this and say that a decent proportion of Jokic’s defense comes from his offense. Compared to the average center, Jokic is way more likely to help his team score or at least get a high-quality shot, and making teams have to score on you more in the halfcourt than in transition makes a big difference in the aggregate. I still think his weaknesses can be exploited more in the playoffs (where the best players are playing more and everything’s scouted that much more) to the point that it would be hard to win a championship with him as your best player, so I have a hard time saying he’s that underrated defensively in the scheme of things, but sure he’s competent enough on defense if that’s the bar.