Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton

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Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton

Isiah Thomas
9
31%
Jason Kidd
9
31%
Gary Payton
5
17%
John Stockton
6
21%
 
Total votes: 29

Owly
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#21 » by Owly » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:57 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
Owly wrote:Plural - "are"
To my ear "lads" (especially in the usage "the lads") hasn't gone as far towards gender neutral as guys, so arguably carries an assumption of gender, which we can't know. This may be more a personal taste thing, doesn't bother me, but maybe could some?

Why on earth "Maybe including yourself" made it in is beyond me. Either you think you've seen it (and presumably outside an "impact on arrival" specific discussion where some players predate it, so it is used as a common tool - even there though, where possible you'd use and find more reliable, RAPM) or you haven't and just choose to hypothesize it.
No what I would do is use RAPM in the first instance and, as here, contextualize major rotation changes if "arrival impact" were used (i.e. Marion, Johnson, Stat, Barbosa stay, Jacobsen and Voskhul stay but minutes are down, Marbury is out, Richardson and Hunter (and Jackson) are added. More stable than the Nets but I don't love it's use and see no virtue over RAPM.

NPI RAPM disagrees somewhat re defense in terms of making the team good (versus just improving, it considers him a big improvement on the terrible Marbury, and good for position, as Jefferson is a huge defensive upgrade on Newman) it suggests multiple drivers of absolute goodness - at a glance this includes: an improved Martin; MacCulloch; Collins and Williams. PI tilts more to him being more of an active driver for good (rather than just an upgrade on bad) especially for the position, even so to say "it was Kidd's play that made the team so good defensively" as if it were a singular cause is dubious.

You probably shouldn't try to think in terms of swing because the within year RAPM is more apples to apples and the previous year with half the roster changing is just introducing unnecessary noise.

RAPM has a further benefit in being comparable with late career Stockton and with Payton (whilst Stockton and Thomas have no "in prime" arrival or departure, I'd argue Payton doesn't either).

I think I'll leave it here. Have a pleasant day.

Even when comparing RAPM numbers in a single season across multiple roles is not apples to apples.

Well for RAPM, given how far Payton is off, it's a two-horse race (Stockton, Kidd - if it's not a one horse race) and then you're comparing strong defensive, pass first point guards. Unless you need the players to be identical to be ... whatever it is you're after I don't know what the point is.

No claim it is perfect nor (even that it is "apples to apples" though hard to see what it is you mean by this). Claim is it is closer to (or "more" of an) apples to apples in that it's the same roster, Kidd is a constant difference between comparison points and other teammates are from a limited pool. Rather than Kidd and half the rotation out versus Kidd and half the rotation in, including time when Kidd is out.
Odinn21 wrote:Claiming there's unnecessary noise in comparing the before and the after seasons of an arrival and hanging onto single season RAPM is not consistent thinking.

Who's "hanging on" to single season RAPM. Single season was used was to compare with a single season of notional arrival impact, if you were to target a season, as you did, for being better at that job. Multi-year is of course much better at eliminating noise and this being possible and being done is just a further advantage over "arrival impact". "Arrival" is somewhat viable, if done thoroughly acknowledging roster changes, if better more precise tools aren't available. Where they are, you choose a method where half the roster changes (and choose not to mention this - and don't mention better tools) because ...


It wasn't the best tool and - given no care for ignoring team turnover - raises concerns about intent.
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#22 » by Odinn21 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:05 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:Even despite that, Stockton's 5.0 PS OBPM you cited from that sample is still well above Kidd's 3.5 even though you only extended Kidd's sample to '07 age 33. Gary Payton's is 3.9, again only going to '02 age 33. Isiah Thomas 4.2, extended to '91 age 29


Odinn21 wrote:BTW if we go back to the thread title with those numbers;
Duncan from 2004-05 to 2006-07 had 3.5 obpm in r. season and 4.4 obpm in playoffs.
Leonard from 2014-15 to 2016-17 had 5.5 obpm in r. season and 7.5 obpm in playoffs.

Duncan led offense was pretty much on par with Leonard led offense.
Odinn21 wrote:(season; r. season // playoffs)

2004-05; the Spurs 107.1 ORtg with +3.0 rORtg // 109.1 ORtg with +2.7 rORtg
2005-06; the Spurs 106.2 ORtg with +1.3 rORtg // 112.0 ORtg with +5.2 rORtg
2006-07; the Spurs 108.6 ORtg with +3.3 rORtg // 106.5 ORtg with +1.1 rORtg
Average; the Spurs 107.3 ORtg with +2.5 rORtg // 108.9 ORtg with +2.7 rORtg

2014-15; the Spurs 107.6 ORtg with +2.9 rORtg // 107.7 ORtg with +3.3 rORtg
2015-16; the Spurs 109.3 ORtg with +3.7 rORtg // 109.8 ORtg with +4.0 rORtg
2016-17; the Spurs 110.3 ORtg with +2.1 rORtg // 112.8 ORtg with +2.1 rORtg
Average; the Spurs 109.2 ORtg with +2.9 rORtg // 110.8 ORtg with +2.9 rORtg

Then it would lead us to discussing the offensive structure of the team and offensive quality of the roster.

And this is just one team, 10 years apart with the same coach and rosters having somewhat consistency/similarities. That's why I said in OP "I'll be focusing more on changes from r. season to postseason".

Making an across teams and across era comparison is hard with this one.

In the very same thread I linked. I already suggested you to read and I think you didn't considering your response.

You could also check out the discussion with the lad taking Westbrook over Karl Malone as a better offensive player simply due to taking box driven numbers at a face value.

Stockton's age in the last season chosen as his prime matches Nash's age in 2010 which is included. Kidd in 2007 and Payton in 2002 were 2 years younger than Stockton in 1998. Only Zeke is the clear odd man in that thread between the 4 + Nash.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#23 » by homecourtloss » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:If anyone has gotten overrated on here the more time goes on it's Kidd. I feel like his career gets bolstered due to his two finals runs..but we all know the east was rather unimpressive, the best team they beat in those 2 years was the 50 win 03 Pistons which was a year before they got Sheed and younger guys like Billups and Prince weren't as good yet as they'd become. Kidd was simply worse offensively than the others, and significantly worse than Stockton on that end i don't see what makes him so clearly better than the others.
Kidd was liked because of the triple doubles but he's another guy that really differs between stats and actual impact in his prime. He was much more impactful older and as a role player.

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This is literally factually untrue by any statistical measure.
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lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#24 » by prophet_of_rage » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:51 am

homecourtloss wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:If anyone has gotten overrated on here the more time goes on it's Kidd. I feel like his career gets bolstered due to his two finals runs..but we all know the east was rather unimpressive, the best team they beat in those 2 years was the 50 win 03 Pistons which was a year before they got Sheed and younger guys like Billups and Prince weren't as good yet as they'd become. Kidd was simply worse offensively than the others, and significantly worse than Stockton on that end i don't see what makes him so clearly better than the others.
Kidd was liked because of the triple doubles but he's another guy that really differs between stats and actual impact in his prime. He was much more impactful older and as a role player.

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This is literally factually untrue by any statistical measure.
And yet the deep playoff runs come later in his career as he matured and became less the man. He had good teams and good numbers as a youngster but didn't take anyone anywhere.

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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#25 » by homecourtloss » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:20 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:Kidd was liked because of the triple doubles but he's another guy that really differs between stats and actual impact in his prime. He was much more impactful older and as a role player.

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This is literally factually untrue by any statistical measure.
And yet the deep playoff runs come later in his career as he matured and became less the man. He had good teams and good numbers as a youngster but didn't take anyone anywhere.

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:lol: He was the best player on a Nets team that twice made the Finals. :lol: What are you talking about ?

Secondly, all the impact metrics point to his most impactful seasons coming with the Nets and not as an older role player with the Mavs though he was still very good.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#26 » by prophet_of_rage » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:35 am

homecourtloss wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
This is literally factually untrue by any statistical measure.
And yet the deep playoff runs come later in his career as he matured and became less the man. He had good teams and good numbers as a youngster but didn't take anyone anywhere.

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He was the best player on a Nets team that twice made the Finals. What are you talking about ?

Secondly, all the impact metrics point to his most impactful seasons coming with the Nets and not as an older role player with the Mavs though he was still very good.
Yes, the Nets of the weak east I'm aware. I'm talking about how past his prime old man Kidd could come to a team as a role player and boost a team without being the star and still perform high level ... the Kidd that became a mentor, a 3 & D pg who would credibly defend the SG and still contribute rebounding, ball movement and leadership. 8 say that guy was better for a winning environment than the uber-talented star of the team diva Jason Kidd of early years.



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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#27 » by KobesScarf » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:24 pm

Odinn21 wrote:Kidd. Don't see much of an argument for the other three over Kidd.


Yup and I think he's got the best signle season too
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#28 » by tihsad » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:45 am

And here I thought this was just going to be another "Isiah is a slightly above average PG" thread.
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#29 » by mdonnelly1989 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:53 am

I think all 4 of these PGs are neck and neck

Isiah Thomas 22/11 88 as a playmaker, 88 as a scorer, 90 as a passer, 85 defensively
Jason Kidd as one of the all time floor generals A+ for running an offense, passing visions, C- scoring but 96/100 Defense.
John Stockton also A+, solid 90/100 defense, A+ passing vision, A+ passer, 77/100 scorer
Gary Payton 98/100 defensively, 88/100 as a scorer, 80/100 passer
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Re: Best Average Prime Year: Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, John Stockton 

Post#30 » by wutevahung » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:02 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:And yet the deep playoff runs come later in his career as he matured and became less the man. He had good teams and good numbers as a youngster but didn't take anyone anywhere.

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He was the best player on a Nets team that twice made the Finals. What are you talking about ?

Secondly, all the impact metrics point to his most impactful seasons coming with the Nets and not as an older role player with the Mavs though he was still very good.
Yes, the Nets of the weak east I'm aware. I'm talking about how past his prime old man Kidd could come to a team as a role player and boost a team without being the star and still perform high level ... the Kidd that became a mentor, a 3 & D pg who would credibly defend the SG and still contribute rebounding, ball movement and leadership. 8 say that guy was better for a winning environment than the uber-talented star of the team diva Jason Kidd of early years.



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Duncan 04 was worse than Duncan 14, because old man Duncan could be on a team as a role player and boost a team without being the star and still perform high level, the Duncan became a mentor, a facilitator who could credibly defend PF and C and still contribute to scoring, ball movement and leadership. I say that Duncan was better for a winning environment than the uber-talented but almost abandoned Spurs diva Tim Duncan of the early years.

03 Duncan was as good as Duncan 14 though.

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