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prophet_of_rage wrote:]You would argue very hard. Rip was the Pistons leading scorer and defended anyone from Lebron to AI. Prince scored enough and was a better defender. That's a very biased take to say they weren't much better than McKie/Lynch.

Argument was specifically regarding D. But is you want to discount my post due to my "bias", suit yourself.



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bondom34 wrote:2004 RAPM had Billups as pretty clearly 3rd behind the Wallaces. Hamilton was the scorer, but not the guy leading the offense. And by the time Billups got a little older, he was well ahead of Iverson's peak numbers.

While not the be all end all, I'm not sure Hamilton has much an argument other than scoring. He was worse than Billups by pretty much every advanced metric across the board.

RAPM on those pistons was totally useless, due to the well reported colinearity they had having their 5 starters playing a disproportionate amount of minutes together.

Hussien Fatal wrote:I actually think Billups is better than Nash but Iverson is way better than both of those guys. Still holds the playoff record which most likely will never be broken of scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game. Iverson at his absolute best is in the class of MJ or any other top 5 GOAT player. Guys like Nash an Billups are a couple tiers below Iverson as a player.

You've got to be related to AI.

This argument of yours literally doesn't make sense.

Iverson is nowhere near MJ or other GOAT candidates because of 1 game.

I got Iverson here. Killer crossover and took it to the hole fearlessly. Had a killer instinct that Nash didn't possess.

Nash just pranced around the perimeter shooting jumpers and handing it off to big men for easy dunks. Couldn't raise his game when his team needed it most and because of that his team's never got anywhere.

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Eddy_JukeZ wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote:I actually think Billups is better than Nash but Iverson is way better than both of those guys. Still holds the playoff record which most likely will never be broken of scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game. Iverson at his absolute best is in the class of MJ or any other top 5 GOAT player. Guys like Nash an Billups are a couple tiers below Iverson as a player.

You've got to be related to AI.

This argument of yours literally doesn't make sense.

Iverson is nowhere near MJ or other GOAT candidates because of 1 game.

Like I said at his absolute best he is as good as anybody, and he has more than one of those type of playoff games.

therealbig3 wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote:I actually think Billups is better than Nash

This is a more ridiculous statement than saying Billups could replace Iverson and lead the 01 Sixers to the Finals, fyi.

He plays better defense and he got the job done. I just don’t think Nash is that good. I don’t see him as a true great. I like Jason Kidd over him as well.

therealbig3 wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote:

therealbig3 wrote:
He was their best offensive player for sure, much like Iverson for the Sixers.



Iverson was putting put up the same numbers he had always done. What makes that year out of his prime? In fact, from an individual standpoint, it was one of his best seasons...certainly his most offensively efficient season.

And Billups himself was around the same age as Iverson, he was nearing the end of his prime as well.

Iverson was not putting up the same numbers when he was traded to Detroit. Infact he was almost down half his production from his prime. Went from scoring 33 (at his best) to 17ppg at the time he was traded. He was clearly out of his prime. And Iverson has wayyyy more mileage on his body than Billups. He played way more minutes as well as getting fouled way more often. It is actually amazing he lasted as long as he did. And still people underestimate his longevity as he is the only guard to average 26ppg or more for ten straight seasons.

But this has very much turned into a bash Iverson thread with people honestly suggesting Billups could take that 01 team to the finals or that Billups was even on Iversons level as a player. You will always be in the minority with that judgement.

I'm comparing what Billups did in 09 compared to what Iverson did in 08. It was basically a straight up replacement from one year to the next, and the Nuggets got a lot better. Iverson in 08 averaged 26/7 on the best efficiency of his career. It's hard to argue that he's all of a sudden no longer in his prime just because it doesn't jive with your narrative.

I don't really care what the majority thinks, what I know is that Billups proved himself to be more effective than Iverson across different roles (in a similar role to Iverson and the Sixers, Billups fit into a team concept a lot better, got more out of his teammates, and led his team to more success...in a direct replacement of Iverson, he led his team to a lot more success).

And if Iverson isn't clearly over Billups, then he doesn't really compare to Nash, obviously.

Who is to say if you put Billups on that 08 team they do any better than they actually did?

JohnWall2 wrote:I got Iverson here. Killer crossover and took it to the hole fearlessly. Had a killer instinct that Nash didn't possess.

Nash just pranced around the perimeter shooting jumpers and handing it off to big men for easy dunks. Couldn't raise his game when his team needed it most and because of that his team's never got anywhere.

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Exactly my thoughts. Nash just lacked that killer instinct of the great scorers. I think he is extremely overrated on this board. Low volume scorer with elite efficiency isn’t good enough to be your best player.

rrravenred wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:]You would argue very hard. Rip was the Pistons leading scorer and defended anyone from Lebron to AI. Prince scored enough and was a better defender. That's a very biased take to say they weren't much better than McKie/Lynch.

Argument was specifically regarding D. But is you want to discount my post due to my "bias", suit yourself.



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Even defensively. Rip was a very good defender and Prince exceptional. I talked about those abilities too.

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Hussien Fatal wrote: Iverson at his absolute best is in the class of MJ or any other top 5 GOAT player.

You can't seriously believe this can you? I was trying to give your arguments a chance but this pretty much shuts it down for me.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

bondom34 wrote:2004 RAPM had Billups as pretty clearly 3rd behind the Wallaces. Hamilton was the scorer, but not the guy leading the offense. And by the time Billups got a little older, he was well ahead of Iverson's peak numbers.

While not the be all end all, I'm not sure Hamilton has much an argument other than scoring. He was worse than Billups by pretty much every advanced metric across the board.

RAPM on those pistons was totally useless, due to the well reported colinearity they had having their 5 starters playing a disproportionate amount of minutes together.

It's not just RAPM. Pretty much everything I can tell by in terms of advanced numbers, including box score ones

No-more-rings wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote: Iverson at his absolute best is in the class of MJ or any other top 5 GOAT player.

You can't seriously believe this can you? I was trying to give your arguments a chance but this pretty much shuts it down for me.

Prove me wrong. At his best he is GOAT status. He has some of the best playoff games ever recorded. When his game is on there is nobody better. He has a couple playoff games that qualify as the best performances ever. 55 while scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game is literally one of the best games in the history of the NBA. I’ll say it again when he is at his best there are only a few players that are on his level and they all are considered top 5 players ever.

Hussien Fatal wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote: Iverson at his absolute best is in the class of MJ or any other top 5 GOAT player.

You can't seriously believe this can you? I was trying to give your arguments a chance but this pretty much shuts it down for me.

Prove me wrong. At his best he is GOAT status. He has some of the best playoff games ever recorded. When his game is on there is nobody better. He has a couple playoff games that qualify as the best performances ever. 55 while scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game is literally one of the best games in the history of the NBA. I’ll say it again when he is at his best there are only a few players that are on his level and they all are considered top 5 players ever.

Well if you want to prop up the great games and ignore the ones where he was putrid go ahead, but it really makes little sense when comparing him to goat players. Being GOAT isn't about how many points you can put up at random.

Hussien Fatal wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote: Iverson at his absolute best is in the class of MJ or any other top 5 GOAT player.

You can't seriously believe this can you? I was trying to give your arguments a chance but this pretty much shuts it down for me.

Prove me wrong. At his best he is GOAT status. He has some of the best playoff games ever recorded. When his game is on there is nobody better. He has a couple playoff games that qualify as the best performances ever. 55 while scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game is literally one of the best games in the history of the NBA. I’ll say it again when he is at his best there are only a few players that are on his level and they all are considered top 5 players ever.

How long is this list? That's literally one game in the conference semis.

There's this one game where Steph Curry came back from a sprain MCL, on a minutes restriction, scoring on 40 points and sucked the souls right out of Portland.
Steve Nash, himself, coming back to Dallas as the league MVP, scored 39 points and 12 assists, including a game typing 3 (the Suns would win in the game and series on OT).

Both games are in the conference semifinals and both performance are pretty legendary. Iverson never really had success besides one season where Larry Brown had to redesign the whole offense and put strong defenders around him. It only worked for one season.

No-more-rings wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:You can't seriously believe this can you? I was trying to give your arguments a chance but this pretty much shuts it down for me.

Prove me wrong. At his best he is GOAT status. He has some of the best playoff games ever recorded. When his game is on there is nobody better. He has a couple playoff games that qualify as the best performances ever. 55 while scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game is literally one of the best games in the history of the NBA. I’ll say it again when he is at his best there are only a few players that are on his level and they all are considered top 5 players ever.

Well if you want to prop up the great games and ignore the ones where he was putrid go ahead, but it really makes little sense when comparing him to goat players. Being GOAT isn't about how many points you can put up at random.

It wasn’t a random thing dude had many big games in the playoffs. He has the 2nd highest rate of 40 and 50 point playoff games. He did it pretty often. He has had way better playoff games than Nash. He has two playoff games scoring more than 50% of his teams points. The only other player to do that’s MJ. Great playoff games can make a career. Nash doesn’t have playoff moments that come even remotely close to Iverson’s multiple big playoff games. He scored 100 points in a 7 quarter playoff span (4th quarter game 6 ECF to 2nd quarter NBA Finals). Nash could never in his dreams score like that in a playoff tight setting.

I keep asking why we are comparing a point guard to a shooting guard and arguing one doesn't shoot enough and one doesn pass enough? Those can't be the measures.

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prophet_of_rage wrote:I keep asking why we are comparing a point guard to a shooting guard and arguing one doesn't shoot enough and one doesn pass enough? Those can't be the measures.

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I don’t think this is a good comparison at all, iverson is way better than Nash.

Hussien Fatal wrote:

prophet_of_rage wrote:I keep asking why we are comparing a point guard to a shooting guard and arguing one doesn't shoot enough and one doesn pass enough? Those can't be the measures.

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I don’t think this is a good comparison at all, iverson is way better than Nash.

Iverson is a better basketball talent. Nash is a better point guard. But it seems that this is an advanced stats comparison without acknowledging they played different roles.

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Hussien Fatal wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote:
Prove me wrong. At his best he is GOAT status. He has some of the best playoff games ever recorded. When his game is on there is nobody better. He has a couple playoff games that qualify as the best performances ever. 55 while scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game is literally one of the best games in the history of the NBA. I’ll say it again when he is at his best there are only a few players that are on his level and they all are considered top 5 players ever.

Well if you want to prop up the great games and ignore the ones where he was putrid go ahead, but it really makes little sense when comparing him to goat players. Being GOAT isn't about how many points you can put up at random.

It wasn’t a random thing dude had many big games in the playoffs. He has the 2nd highest rate of 40 and 50 point playoff games. He did it pretty often. He has had way better playoff games than Nash. He has two playoff games scoring more than 50% of his teams points. The only other player to do that’s MJ. Great playoff games can make a career. Nash doesn’t have playoff moments that come even remotely close to Iverson’s multiple big playoff games. He scored 100 points in a 7 quarter playoff span (4th quarter game 6 ECF to 2nd quarter NBA Finals). Nash could never in his dreams score like that in a playoff tight setting.

I don't think you're getting that PPG isn't the be all end all, especially when Iverson could never in his dreams score at the same efficiency as Nash, even if he took the same amount of shots.

There is no team situation where Iverson could lead the level of team offense that Nash was doing in Phoenix. Because Nash was a true dual threat that could burn you with scoring and passing, but was primarily a passer first and got his teammates involved. Iverson was a scorer first that was a mediocre passer and his scoring was generally very low efficiency. Nash got the most out of his teammates and was guaranteed to lead an elite offense, most of the time a historic offense. Even if he only scored 15 ppg. That's why his 15 ppg was just more valuable than Iverson's 30 ppg.

As an overall offensive force, Nash blows Iverson out of the water.

Hussien Fatal wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

Hussien Fatal wrote:
Prove me wrong. At his best he is GOAT status. He has some of the best playoff games ever recorded. When his game is on there is nobody better. He has a couple playoff games that qualify as the best performances ever. 55 while scoring 56% of his teams points in a playoff game is literally one of the best games in the history of the NBA. I’ll say it again when he is at his best there are only a few players that are on his level and they all are considered top 5 players ever.

Well if you want to prop up the great games and ignore the ones where he was putrid go ahead, but it really makes little sense when comparing him to goat players. Being GOAT isn't about how many points you can put up at random.

It wasn’t a random thing dude had many big games in the playoffs. He has the 2nd highest rate of 40 and 50 point playoff games. He did it pretty often. He has had way better playoff games than Nash. He has two playoff games scoring more than 50% of his teams points. The only other player to do that’s MJ. Great playoff games can make a career. Nash doesn’t have playoff moments that come even remotely close to Iverson’s multiple big playoff games. He scored 100 points in a 7 quarter playoff span (4th quarter game 6 ECF to 2nd quarter NBA Finals). Nash could never in his dreams score like that in a playoff tight setting.

Before the fourth quarter in game 6 vs bucks,Iverson had been awful in the series against the bucks(he won the game 5 with 5-27 for 15 points ) and in round one,Reggie Miller had been better that Iverson,same thing in round 2 and 3 for Carter and Ray Allen.

No doubt Iverson can be hot like crazy, but he's been more often cold like crazy which is just not good for a team offense.

Nash has been much more consistent and very important and much better to be consistent than having a great random game 1 in a first round matchup and being complete garbage after that.