Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie?

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Who Peaked Higher? Melo or Kyrie

Poll ended at Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm

Melo
23
68%
Kyrie
11
32%
 
Total votes: 34

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Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#1 » by Pelly24 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:02 pm

They've been compared to each other in the past because they're seen as ball-hogs and one-dimensional scorers just below the G.O.A.T.S, but who peaked higher?

Melo made the playoffs almost every year during his prime and made it to the WCF in 2009. His best four-year ws/48 stat is an average of .168 and his average BPM during this time (2010-2011-2013-2014) was 3.95. His true shooting percentage was 55.5. His defense was bad, but he made up for it on offense usually. Not much of a passer but could throw some dimes when he wanted to. He was about 1.5% above league average. His teams generally had good records and he was definitely one of the most skilled scorers in the game. in 2013 he prevented LeBron from getting a unanimous MVP (because of some dumb journalist) but he was definitely all-nba level. The Knicks were really good a couple of those years and had Carmelo had a *very good* second option they could have gone further IMO. He was nasty and he could go on crazy scoring runs. I remember him as being one of the best scorers of the era. He might get slept on a bit, and advanced analytics might underrate him because he, like Kobe, took awful shots. Melo could be more physically dominant because of his size.

Looking at Kyrie between 2016 and now, he's averaged 24.8/6/4 on 48/40/89 splits and 59 TS%. Kyrie's 219-game run ws/48 is at .196 and his BPM has been at an average of 5.9. His TS% has been at 59.3. He's been at about 3.5 or 4% above league-average TS%. He's been a member of the a finals team and played well as a No. 2 (on average he played good, was amazing in 2016), was a solid No. 1 on Celtics teams that won an average of 52 or so games. Played miserably against the Bucks, had horrible attitude issues. Has been injury prone, but reasonably played at All-NBA 2nd Team level between 2017 and 2019 (made it in 2019, could have in 2018 arguably), his last year in Cleveland he could have taken out Demar for all-nba third team. Has been a slight negative on defense, but has been neutral at different times. Makes most smart passes but not an instinctive playmaker, also maybe not the ballhog people think. I think Kyrie's analytics look better, but it feels more stressed in today's environment so that might be why.

So I look at them as a similar tier player I think, but Kyrie might not have had his best years yet. Melo's best are obviously done. But who had the better apex in terms of impact and ability? Who was better at their peak (Kyrie's peak to date)?
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#2 » by No-more-rings » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:27 pm

Good comparison, i find it hard to get a real accurate gauge on Kyrie's impact in general. I do find him rather useful as a 2nd option to a superior offensive player such as Lebron, and perhaps someone lesser like a Dirk or KD type as well, or as part of an ensemble cast like what they had going on with the Celtics. His sample in the playoffs without Lebron is pretty small i think it's like 9 games or something? So i don't really want to draw much conclusion based off of that. I don't really want him leading my team, nor do i really want Melo doing that either although he's probably better at it.

I'd probably pick Melo, i think Kyrie probably has a higher ceiling in the playoffs with the types of games or series he can have, but it seems so predicated on the right circumstances. Melo seems like he would have more impact as a 1st option and comparable impact if he got to play with someone like Lebron, or another big time superstar.

You should add a poll.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#3 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:58 pm

I've got Kyrie here pretty comfortably. He's an unusual player in that he happened to peak when the stakes were the highest: the NBA Finals. But peak he did and it was pretty absurd:

'16 Finals: 27/4/4 on 56% TS vs 2nd ranked defense
'17 Finals: 29/4/4 on 56% TS vs 2nd ranked defense

To me that speaks to the pinnacle of playoff resilient volume scoring that only a handful of players in NBA history have ever demonstrated
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#4 » by Pelly24 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:08 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Good comparison, i find it hard to get a real accurate gauge on Kyrie's impact in general. I do find him rather useful as a 2nd option to a superior offensive player such as Lebron, and perhaps someone lesser like a Dirk or KD type as well, or as part of an ensemble cast like what they had going on with the Celtics. His sample in the playoffs without Lebron is pretty small i think it's like 9 games or something? So i don't really want to draw much conclusion based off of that. I don't really want him leading my team, nor do i really want Melo doing that either although he's probably better at it.

I'd probably pick Melo, i think Kyrie probably has a higher ceiling in the playoffs with the types of games or series he can have, but it seems so predicated on the right circumstances. Melo seems like he would have more impact as a 1st option and comparable impact if he got to play with someone like Lebron, or another big time superstar.

You should add a poll.


Thanks! It's an interesting topic to me. I get the feeling that Melo was a better floor-raiser and with the way he appeared before I knew how to look at stats, he seemed to be dominant for a longer time, and his counting stats were better in someways. It seems like he could just be a more forceful scorer. I don't think Kyrie's ever averaged 30 points in a month. But I think Kyrie is a more talented/more resilient player because he's actually an elite shooter from everywhere, and his ability to play on or off ball and be effective and his superiority as a playmaker make him more portable. I actually think his last cleveland year is worse than any of what he's shown the last 2.25 seasons he's played. I think there's a chance Melo could have won a chip with LeBron too and his legacy would be looked at differently if so. Everyone can have a bad series so don't want to knock Kyrie too hard for one series—he missed every jumper basically—but I think Melo would have played better against Milwaukee last year. He could just get to the line more and force the action. That size just helps so much.

Either way I don't have a clearcut answer.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#5 » by Ambrose » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:06 pm

You aren't going anywhere with either as your top player. Kyrie is much better suited to be a second option on a title team so him.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#6 » by NY 567 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:50 pm

This is about as close a comparison as it gets. I'd slightly lean towards Melo but its extremely close
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#7 » by GeorgeMarcus » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:15 pm

Let's remember that Melo won the NCAA Championship and an Olympic gold medal as the top scoring option. I think he takes this pretty easily tbh. Kyrie's stats inflate his impact even more so than Melo.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#8 » by Homer38 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 pm

I don't think Kyrie ever had a season that Melo had in 2013 and 2014

No doubt, Kyrie was great in the playoffs for the most part in 2016 and 2017 and he was a very good fit in offense with LBJ, but Melo never had the chance to play with a MVP caliber player in his prime.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#9 » by mademan » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:40 pm

Ambrose wrote:You aren't going anywhere with either as your top player. Kyrie is much better suited to be a second option on a title team so him.


is he? He got to play beside the possible GOAT. Melo didnt get that oppurtunity. And for all the flack he gets, Melo in his prime was a decent defender and was fine playing beside ball dominant players (like AI). Lets not forget that the Nuggets pushed the championship Lakers in a series where they couldve easily won in 09. WCF with a chance at making the finals on a not really stacked roster is pretty far

This really isnt close to me. Kyrie is way more 1 dimensional, and thats saying something when the comparison is to Melo
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#10 » by mademan » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:43 pm

BenoUdrihFTL wrote:I've got Kyrie here pretty comfortably. He's an unusual player in that he happened to peak when the stakes were the highest: the NBA Finals. But peak he did and it was pretty absurd:

'16 Finals: 27/4/4 on 56% TS vs 2nd ranked defense
'17 Finals: 29/4/4 on 56% TS vs 2nd ranked defense

To me that speaks to the pinnacle of playoff resilient volume scoring that only a handful of players in NBA history have ever demonstrated


Melo averaged 27.5ppg on 55 TS% in the playoffs against a similar level defense (Lakers)
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#11 » by bondom34 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:49 pm

This was a pretty good one I think. Kyrie's best 2 seasons he was injured and missed significant time, so not totally sure you can give as much weight toward them as a peak. Melo was more of a guy who was game in/game out healthy and impact stats are relatively close. He's also had some great playoff runs and never had the luxury of being with Lebron, so leaning him.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#12 » by Jaqua92 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:43 am

Just below GOAT?

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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#13 » by bondom34 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:15 am

Was bored and checked by PIPM and RAPM.

By PIPM, 2013 Melo was a +3.15, 11.11 wins added (I'm assuming this is a minutes adjustment). 2019 Irving was +3.03 and 9.31 wins added.

By RAPM 2019 Kyrie peaked at +2.66, Melo was +2.02 in 2013 and 2.1 in 2013. But the main difference is Kyrie was getting a bigger boost from DRAPM, which I'm not totally sure I buy (even if he's not a negative defender, he was pretty well into positives here. 19 Kyrie was ahead by LARAPM as well.

That said, seems they weren't miles apart on a per minute basis I don't think, and Melo was generally more durable and capable of a higher minutes load.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#14 » by therealbig3 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:54 pm

Would probably take Melo. I think his 2013 and 2014 seasons are better than anything Kyrie has shown.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#15 » by SeniorWalker » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:49 am

Melo.
2016 Kyrie is very underappreciated for what he did but I fully believe 2009 Melo would be capable of the same thing playing next to LeBron. And more.

I am neither a Melo or Kyrie fan. Don't dislike them but they are very much 1-D players. Melo was very skilled offensively though for a good stretch of his career. Obvious superstar talent, even if not consistent superstar performance. I don't think there was a single year in his career where he actually had a top 5 player season, but he was in that ballpark for pure talent. Just underachieved due to his own character shortcomings.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#16 » by Pelly24 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:37 am

bondom34 wrote:Was bored and checked by PIPM and RAPM.

By PIPM, 2013 Melo was a +3.15, 11.11 wins added (I'm assuming this is a minutes adjustment). 2019 Irving was +3.03 and 9.31 wins added.

By RAPM 2019 Kyrie peaked at +2.66, Melo was +2.02 in 2013 and 2.1 in 2013. But the main difference is Kyrie was getting a bigger boost from DRAPM, which I'm not totally sure I buy (even if he's not a negative defender, he was pretty well into positives here. 19 Kyrie was ahead by LARAPM as well.

That said, seems they weren't miles apart on a per minute basis I don't think, and Melo was generally more durable and capable of a higher minutes load.


Yeah this is pretty much what I would expect. I think they both have peaked as guys that would be top 12ish players, Melo I think might have gotten to 10 and was more durable year in and year out. What I think has been most ramming for Irving has been health. I would love to see what he would look like on the same team for three or so consecutive 65-game seasons.

Id say Melo was a more forceful scorer. I think Kyrie generally tried to play the right way more and was less of a ballhog. He’s also an above average passer/playmaker who can play on or off ball so I don’t think he’s 1-dimensional as people have said. I think Melo in his prime could have helped LeBron get a ring as well. So I’m still a bit on the fence but leaning more toward Melo due to health, attitude (better toward teammates, but a bad attitude in terms of basketball play)
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#17 » by limbo » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:58 am

Yuck. I wouldn't want any of the two as my franchise player i'm trying to build around... That said, between the two, i'm taking Kyrie... I don't really see what Melo does better on offense. Maybe get to the line? But Kyrie does everything elae better pretty much.

Both are weak defenders, but Melo plays a more crucial defensive position. I think it's worse to have a bad wing/forward defender than having a bad PG defender...
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#18 » by trex_8063 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:26 pm

limbo wrote:Yuck. I wouldn't want any of the two as my franchise player i'm trying to build around... That said, between the two, i'm taking Kyrie... I don't really see what Melo does better on offense. Maybe get to the line? But Kyrie does everything elae better pretty much.

Both are weak defenders, but Melo plays a more crucial defensive position. I think it's worse to have a bad wing/forward defender than having a bad PG defender...


On the flip-side, the 3pt shooting [and spacing added] is more valuable from a SF/(PF) than from a PG.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#19 » by limbo » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:14 pm

trex_8063 wrote:On the flip-side, the 3pt shooting [and spacing added] is more valuable from a SF/(PF) than from a PG.


Based on what? Depends on how a player is used. Curry arguably had the biggest impact of all-time via 3pt shooting/spacing and he's a PG... Just because of the way he was used. And plenty of PG's have a lot of impact through being elite outside shooters.

The thing with Melo and Kyrie is that both prefer to be on-ball, that's why their spacing/shooting value isn't as high as it could've been. I don't see how Melo has more value as a 3pt shooting threat just because he's a Forward? The way you would make use of Melo's outside shooting by playing him off-ball and pairing him with an elite playmaker, you could do the same for Kyrie.
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Re: Who Peaked Higher as a Player? Melo or Kyrie? 

Post#20 » by Pelly24 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:57 am

mademan wrote:
Ambrose wrote:You aren't going anywhere with either as your top player. Kyrie is much better suited to be a second option on a title team so him.


is he? He got to play beside the possible GOAT. Melo didnt get that oppurtunity. And for all the flack he gets, Melo in his prime was a decent defender and was fine playing beside ball dominant players (like AI). Lets not forget that the Nuggets pushed the championship Lakers in a series where they couldve easily won in 09. WCF with a chance at making the finals on a not really stacked roster is pretty far

This really isnt close to me. Kyrie is way more 1 dimensional, and thats saying something when the comparison is to Melo



There's literally no way Kyrie was more 1-dimensional. He's clearly a much better passer, a much better shooter and has the ability to play off ball or on ball and still score at the same efficiency. As for defense, I'd say they were a wash at best, but Kyrie has shown more flashes, while being a bad defender at Melo's position is more detrimental.

Melo was the level of chucker that people imagine Kyrie is. If Kyrie shot as much as Melo, he'd average 30 ppg on like 57 TS%.

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